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Does Anybody Here Remember Vera Lynn? (CBA & Lockout Discussion) XXVIII ‎

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11-15-2012, 04:03 PM
  #651
Scurr
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Originally Posted by habfan1968 View Post
Can anyone here tell me exactly what is unfair about the latest NHL proposal? sidthe kid8787 does not want to. Can anyone please tell me what is not fair about it?
The NHL's answer to overspending on players is to limit the earning potential of all players. Sidney Corsby is worth every penny he's being paid, both to the Pens and the league and in fact he's probably worth much more. Rather than take responsibility for signing contracts that make sense for your team, the NHL wants to limit contract length, take away free agency eligibility and arbitration rights. Asking for a reduction in the players percentage of HRR is reasonable, asking players to limit their earning potential so that teams don't have to be fiscally responsible is not.

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11-15-2012, 04:07 PM
  #652
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
The NHL's answer to overspending on players is to limit the earning potential of all players. Sidney Corsby is worth every penny he's being paid, both to the Pens and the league and in fact he's probably worth much more. Rather than take responsibility for signing contracts that make sense for your team, the NHL wants to limit contract length, take away free agency eligibility and arbitration rights. Asking for a reduction in the players percentage of HRR is reasonable, asking players to limit their earning potential so that teams don't have to be fiscally responsible is not.
What you describe as "teams being fiscally responsible" is collusion.

The only way for teams to be fiscally responsible is for limitations to be put on contracts.

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11-15-2012, 04:07 PM
  #653
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
The NHL's answer to overspending on players is to limit the earning potential of all players. Sidney Corsby is worth every penny he's being paid, both to the Pens and the league and in fact he's probably worth much more. Rather than take responsibility for signing contracts that make sense for your team, the NHL wants to limit contract length, take away free agency eligibility and arbitration rights. Asking for a reduction in the players percentage of HRR is reasonable, asking players to limit their earning potential so that teams don't have to be fiscally responsible is not.
Agreed but I highly doubt many of those changes will occur.

maybe a soft cap of 10 years, but UFA and arbitration rights wont be changed, or at least wont be accepted by the PA. It's ultimately the variance that is important there.

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11-15-2012, 04:10 PM
  #654
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
The NHL's answer to overspending on players is to limit the earning potential of all players. Sidney Corsby is worth every penny he's being paid, both to the Pens and the league and in fact he's probably worth much more. Rather than take responsibility for signing contracts that make sense for your team, the NHL wants to limit contract length, take away free agency eligibility and arbitration rights. Asking for a reduction in the players percentage of HRR is reasonable, asking players to limit their earning potential so that teams don't have to be fiscally responsible is not.
But in reality, if the Pens didn't have to spend so much on Jordan Staal and Kris Letang's second contract, they would have more cap space to pay Sid more.

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11-15-2012, 04:12 PM
  #655
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
The NHL's answer to overspending on players is to limit the earning potential of all players. Sidney Corsby is worth every penny he's being paid, both to the Pens and the league and in fact he's probably worth much more. Rather than take responsibility for signing contracts that make sense for your team, the NHL wants to limit contract length, take away free agency eligibility and arbitration rights. Asking for a reduction in the players percentage of HRR is reasonable, asking players to limit their earning potential so that teams don't have to be fiscally responsible is not.
The players have the same earning potential after HRR. The issue is the teams want longer to evaluate players. The want an ELC and then a second deal that is not too long then once it has been earned the big payday. This is to avoid tying up money on a one season fluke. It will give guys who have paid their dues the money they deserve and maybe help young guys grow within a system before leaving for a quick payday
The teams will pay the same amount to the players overall because it is a set amount of HRR no matter what

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11-15-2012, 04:13 PM
  #656
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On the other hand, how the players feel actually matters since they have the power to vote.

They may be irrational but perhaps being diplomatic in how you present things in the negotiating room will play well with them. They were very upset when Bettman said no in 10 minutes. Since it was just a variation of an old proposal, it was very easy for the league to say no but it seems the players genuinely thought it was a good proposal saying no so fast made them very angry.

Same with the owners first proposal which clearly was meant as a starting point for negotiations. Some players didn't realize this but took it as an insult.

The players are proud and not all used to the negotiation process. They feel they caved last time and now they are being pushed around. Perception is reality.

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11-15-2012, 04:20 PM
  #657
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Ferraro on Team 1040 (he is pretty funny on our local station because they are so anti-Bettmann it's disgusting):

23:20

Quote:
I saw Doug Maclean on Sportsnet yesterday say that two agents called Fehr and said look my players want you to get in and get a deal. And the spoke to him, and Fehr told both guys he would take it under advisement. So in other words he dusted both of those guys aside too. The similarities between Bettman and Fehr, to me, are what are making this more and more dificult. The similarities of I'm going to get what I want, all else be damned.

I had a guy tell me yesterday, and I guess I thought about it, but I've not thought about it in individual terms. But he said I'll give you a name to think about - Joey Crabb. And I was like, what about JOey Crabb? And he said, he's been bouncing around the minors for years. He finally gets a one-way deal in Tampa, and now half of that deal is gone, at least. And, the farm team in Tampa, they won the Calder Cup last year, they've won 25 games in a row, they lost two games this year. Guys like JOey Crabb are going to be extinct. And Fehr wouldn't even know that, because it's about the total deal here. And that's where I think the pressure has to come from the player's side.

Because I think Bettman is going to get it from the owner's side too. There will be enough guys that are going to say: Gary, we have to give this a real good chance here. And I think that's where the internal pressures come from.

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11-15-2012, 04:21 PM
  #658
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
On the other hand, how the players feel actually matters since they have the power to vote.

They may be irrational but perhaps being diplomatic in how you present things in the negotiating room will play well with them. They were very upset when Bettman said no in 10 minutes. Since it was just a variation of an old proposal, it was very easy for the league to say no but it seems the players genuinely thought it was a good proposal saying no so fast made them very angry.

Same with the owners first proposal which clearly was meant as a starting point for negotiations. Some players didn't realize this but took it as an insult.

The players are proud and not all used to the negotiation process. They feel they caved last time and now they are being pushed around. Perception is reality.
Do the players even really know what their offer really was? Are they that naive to think that if they change the title on their proposal that the league wouldn't know any different. What does Fehr actually tell the players about how much they 'have given up"

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11-15-2012, 04:22 PM
  #659
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
I've never heard the terms "take it or leave it" with PA proposals.

And i said when you use it, it's DETRIMENTAL to the process of negotiating.
So the only way an offer can be termed "Take it or leave it," is if Fehr designates it as such? Neither side is willing to negotiate off the other sides offers. The NHL owners have been negotiating with themselves and are tired of it. So now they are waiting for a move from the PA.

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11-15-2012, 04:23 PM
  #660
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Do the players even really know what their offer really was? Are they that naive to think that if they change the title on their proposal that the league wouldn't know any different. What does Fehr actually tell the players about how much they 'have given up"
I don't think Fehr even tells them that much. I think he tells them only what he wants. The way he has taken control of the union he acts as if he is working for himself.

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11-15-2012, 04:25 PM
  #661
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A player gets drafted and the team has one year to sign him to a pro contract, is this correct?

Once signed most players go back to their junior team or college teams etc. for another year. The player then chooses to continue school or join the teams affiliate where he starts getting paid to play etc. Training and all that other stuff that costs the team money. How old is this player now maybe 18 - 19 - 20 ? If you follow the Canadiens system he will play up to 3 seasons in AHL before getting a sniff at he NHL unless he is exceptional like Subban. So now this player is ready to play in the NHL and he only 2 seasons away from UFA? Why are teams even willing to draft and develop players only to see them leave before they hit their prime? Most players still have a development curve once they hit the NHL as well, lets say the are making league minimum thats still half a million dollars a season to help a guy develop just so he can leave to UFA.

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11-15-2012, 04:26 PM
  #662
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
The NHL's answer to overspending on players is to limit the earning potential of all players. Sidney Corsby is worth every penny he's being paid, both to the Pens and the league and in fact he's probably worth much more. Rather than take responsibility for signing contracts that make sense for your team, the NHL wants to limit contract length, take away free agency eligibility and arbitration rights. Asking for a reduction in the players percentage of HRR is reasonable, asking players to limit their earning potential so that teams don't have to be fiscally responsible is not.
Ok, so why does their own union constantly propose a solution that limits their earning potential even more?

If you really expect growth to continue, a small hit down to 50/50 will quickly be outstripped by the increase in the size of the pie.

The initial player's rhetoric actually made some sense - revenue sharing will help even things out.

I think honouring face value was a concession given by the owners to the players, since the players are not legally owed that money.

Even though an imposed annual 1.75% raise seems ludicrous, if the league does grow between 5-7% per year, then that raise would represent the players limiting their own earning potential. How does that make sense in the context of this argument?

If the players really want increased salary certainty, why would they allow so much of the season to be wasted already - all this stalling just eats into any gains they could make with less risk.

The whole problem is that the PA has no clearly defined financial goal. They have a bunch of different ideas that they don't seem willing to prioritize and a time agenda that seems oblivious to economic reality.

Both side suck, but the PA's stance so far is just baffling and stupid.

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11-15-2012, 04:26 PM
  #663
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Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
Ferraro on Team 1040 (he is pretty funny on our local station because they are so anti-Bettmann it's disgusting):

23:20
I thought Joey Crabb was signed by the Capitals and not Tampa?

EDIT: Yeah he signed with Washington


Last edited by Gigantor The Goalie: 11-15-2012 at 04:32 PM. Reason: he signed with Washington
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11-15-2012, 04:27 PM
  #664
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The players are not obligated to accept a deal just because the NHL says it's the best they can do. The players distrust Bettman and with good reason, right now Bettman and the owners are trying to shove their proposal down the players throat. The players have to stand up do this dictator once and for all.

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11-15-2012, 04:28 PM
  #665
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
I'm mostly pro-owners on economics and pro-players on contracts so I can figure this one out myself.

Economics: players get 55%, 52%, 50%, 50%, 50% 50%. None of that make whose nonsense. Cap ceiling for this year $70M. They get to keep all other benefits negotiated upon and the increased revenue sharing.

Player contract: Contract can't differ more than 5% year to year and the NCAA loophole is closed. Everything else the players get to keep.

Problem solved. All we need to do is paint "Thank you Fans" on the ice and drop the puck.
Will really, really piss me off. Insulting.

They will do it of course.

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11-15-2012, 04:28 PM
  #666
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I thought Joey Crabb was signed by the Capitals and not Tampa?
I dunno, sorry I just transcribed the radio interview!

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11-15-2012, 04:30 PM
  #667
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I don't think Fehr even tells them that much. I think he tells them only what he wants. The way he has taken control of the union he acts as if he is working for himself.
I n order to take this thing into next year like he wants he will have to do some serious manipulating and brainwashing.

Goodenow back in 2004 told the players they would have to miss a year and maybe 2 to get the deal they want. But after a year I think most of the players realized pulling a Thelma and Louise wasn't the best idea....unfortunatly the same thing appears to be happening.

The question is at what point will the PA stop playing chicken? My opinion is they won't and it will come down to how long Fehr can feed the players Koolaid.

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11-15-2012, 04:30 PM
  #668
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Originally Posted by albator71 View Post
The players are not obligated to accept a deal just because the NHL says it's the best they can do. The players distrust Bettman and with good reason, right now Bettman and the owners are trying to shove their proposal down the players throat. The players have to stand up do this dictator once and for all.
Best deal the NHL could give was given in October that included 82 games which means full pay cheques and no missed money. Now though every deal does get worse no matter once due to the fact those games will never be played and therefore lost money for the players.

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11-15-2012, 04:32 PM
  #669
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Originally Posted by albator71 View Post
The players are not obligated to accept a deal just because the NHL says it's the best they can do. The players distrust Bettman and with good reason, right now Bettman and the owners are trying to shove their proposal down the players throat. The players have to stand up do this dictator once and for all.
This is what I'm talking about. You supposedly pro-PA guys don't even care if these guys throw away a 20% of their career earnings or their entire career. You just want them to 'stick it to the man' or some other foolish romantic notion.

They should NEGOTIATE using the NHL framework because they should be looking after their own best short and long term self interests, none of which are being served by their own freaking union.

For example, if the NHLPA really wanted to soften the cap with let's say a luxury tax, why haven't they proposed one yet formally? We only have about a week to get a deal done to start December games. Any radical idea the PA would want to implement would take longer to introduce now and further delay a deal.

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11-15-2012, 04:34 PM
  #670
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Originally Posted by albator71 View Post
The players are not obligated to accept a deal just because the NHL says it's the best they can do. The players distrust Bettman and with good reason, right now Bettman and the owners are trying to shove their proposal down the players throat. The players have to stand up do this dictator once and for all.
The most important thing for the league right now is to get a deal so that that half the league doesn't bleed money. They need a good deal so teams can survive, lining the players pockets to the fullist extent isn't the most important thing for league.

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11-15-2012, 04:37 PM
  #671
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
The NHL's answer to overspending on players is to limit the earning potential of all players. Sidney Corsby is worth every penny he's being paid, both to the Pens and the league and in fact he's probably worth much more. Rather than take responsibility for signing contracts that make sense for your team, the NHL wants to limit contract length, take away free agency eligibility and arbitration rights. Asking for a reduction in the players percentage of HRR is reasonable, asking players to limit their earning potential so that teams don't have to be fiscally responsible is not.
Oh, and nevermind that the owners take on all the 'responsibility' of signing those contracts by

a) taking out loans to ensure cashflow to pay the contracts, and enduring the resulting debt service

b) putting cash money into the franchise to accomplish 'a', which is a waste of opportunity cost that might not result in profit

c) Bearing the loss (and yes, sometimes gain) created by such contracts and the associated debt service

d) offering to pay face value in these negotiations when they could just bleed out the union for a year and let the new 50/50 split CBA devalue the contracts for them.

Compare this to the players, who maybe take a slight hit once every 6-7 years when the CBA expires. Sheesh.

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11-15-2012, 04:37 PM
  #672
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Originally Posted by albator71 View Post
The players are not obligated to accept a deal just because the NHL says it's the best they can do. The players distrust Bettman and with good reason, right now Bettman and the owners are trying to shove their proposal down the players throat. The players have to stand up do this dictator once and for all.
Well if they want to sit at home and make nothing, or play in the European leagues for hundreds of thousands instead of making Millions playing in the NHL that is their choice. Sure a few of them are doing OK in the KHL but those spots are few and far between.

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11-15-2012, 04:39 PM
  #673
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Also, ask yourself this:

If you were an owner, would you sign the last NHLPA without changes? Hell no.

If you were a player, would you sign the last NHL deal without changes? You'd think long and hard about it.

I think 'maybe' over 'yes' illustrates who has contributed more to the negotiations so far.

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11-15-2012, 04:41 PM
  #674
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Originally Posted by albator71 View Post
The players are not obligated to accept a deal just because the NHL says it's the best they can do. The players distrust Bettman and with good reason, right now Bettman and the owners are trying to shove their proposal down the players throat. The players have to stand up do this dictator once and for all.
Now, I do agree that the players distrust Bettman and the NHL brass up top. Honestly, that's a huge hurdle to this getting done. That falls on Bettman's shoulders, and honestly should be considered when it comes time to look at his leadership.

Do the players have to stand up to him? I don't know. If the NHL and the owners are being the bullies, it's up to the players to decide if they get a wedgie or a swirly. Pick your poison I guess. Make less initially now, or lose and entire season of wages only to make less initially.

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11-15-2012, 04:42 PM
  #675
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Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
Also, ask yourself this:

If you were an owner, would you sign the last NHLPA without changes? Hell no.

If you were a player, would you sign the last NHL deal without changes? You'd think long and hard about it.

I think 'maybe' over 'yes' illustrates who has contributed more to the negotiations so far.
If I were an owner I think I would also be asking why the league, of which I am a part of, is paying to keep teams in cities who clearly have no love or interest for the game of hockey.

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