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Mark Recchi's advice to players is to sign CBA now

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Old
11-15-2012, 03:37 PM
  #351
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Originally Posted by Deebo View Post
The PA has been doing this all along, questioning the integrity of anyone who disagrees with their position.

They did it through their shills, like how Allan Walsh tries to paint media members as league mouth pieces and through staunch union supporting players like Phillips like in this case.

What they are doing is pretty transparent.
I myself have no predisposition to rooting for billionaire owners. However, the particulars of this particular negotiation have me firmly on the owners side.

The players would do well to stop the victim act.

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11-15-2012, 04:48 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
If the players don't fully understand an issue, that's on Fehr.

As has been mentioned, Crosby has been as involved and interested as pretty much anyone. If HE doesn't know extension of entry level deals, which was proposed 5 months ago, is the exact opposite of what the league wants now, Fehr isn't communicating the realities of the issues between the PA and the NHL.

If, I don't know, Kris Letang, who hasn't involved himself whatsoever in this collective bargaining stuff, didn't know that something had changed since 5 months ago with respect to what the league was proposing, I suppose it could be argued that he doesn't know because he isn't paying attention, which is on him.

Crosby's as involved as anybody. If Crosby is publicaly rallying to stop the NHL from implementing the opposite of what it wants to implement, there's a serious problem with what Fehr is and isn't telling the membership.
There are two sides to communication, speaking and listening. If misinformation is presented regarding a dialogue, we need evidence of whether it was in the speaking or listening half. I am no fan of Fehr, but it is possible that Crosby didn't hear or didn't understand Fehr. Crosby does bear responsibility for either his lack of understanding or his unwillingness to verify that which was communicated to him. Historically, players have tended to not involve themselves in the PA until the CBA expiration rolls around. If you listen to quotes from players about electing reps, it is not uncommon for some player to agree to be a rep because no one else will and it is not uncommon for a team to be without a rep because someone stepped down or was traded and no one was willing to step up.

From all the history of quotes coming from players about representation, I doubt whether their are more than a half dozen who are consistently interested in what the PA is doing enough to investigate information that is told them.

If anything, I would hope that Fehr is inspiring them to get more involved in the organization that considerably effects all of their lives.

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11-15-2012, 05:27 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
There are two sides to communication, speaking and listening. If misinformation is presented regarding a dialogue, we need evidence of whether it was in the speaking or listening half. I am no fan of Fehr, but it is possible that Crosby didn't hear or didn't understand Fehr. Crosby does bear responsibility for either his lack of understanding or his unwillingness to verify that which was communicated to him. Historically, players have tended to not involve themselves in the PA until the CBA expiration rolls around. If you listen to quotes from players about electing reps, it is not uncommon for some player to agree to be a rep because no one else will and it is not uncommon for a team to be without a rep because someone stepped down or was traded and no one was willing to step up.

From all the history of quotes coming from players about representation, I doubt whether their are more than a half dozen who are consistently interested in what the PA is doing enough to investigate information that is told them.

If anything, I would hope that Fehr is inspiring them to get more involved in the organization that considerably effects all of their lives.

Excellent summary. The structure is there to disseminate information and to have a designated contact for getting additional information if needed. As has been stated numerous times, any player can go to any negotiating session at the PA's expense! All he has to do is he wants to sit in the room for himself is ask for the ticket to be sent. (I have wondered how they'd accommodate a couple hundred guys in the room if ever that many were interested.)

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11-15-2012, 05:33 PM
  #354
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intresting that Reechi is partners with Kamloops Blazers...... Gaglardi whos also the owner of the Dallas Stars


so is he a former player with an opnion or is he now a NHL shrill with a selfish purpose??????

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11-15-2012, 05:38 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Excellent summary. The structure is there to disseminate information and to have a designated contact for getting additional information if needed. As has been stated numerous times, any player can go to any negotiating session at the PA's expense! All he has to do is he wants to sit in the room for himself is ask for the ticket to be sent. (I have wondered how they'd accommodate a couple hundred guys in the room if ever that many were interested.)
The problem is the players' interest in the details. I would dearly love to hear candid comments about the PA three years after the deal when all of the noise has died down. Get a reporter to go around to a large group of players soliciting their thoughts on the current machinations of the PA and their involvement in them. I am just giving a summary of all the little quotes I have picked up during times when the CBA was not at stake. It might be in the owners' best interest to push their youngsters to become involved on more than a cursory level.


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11-15-2012, 05:40 PM
  #356
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Originally Posted by crazyforhockey View Post
intresting that Reechi is partners with Kamloops Blazers...... Gaglardi whos also the owner of the Dallas Stars


so is he a former player with an opnion or is he now a NHL shrill with a selfish purpose??????


Or is he a recently retired star player who had his career affected by two work stoppages and now has the ability to not only understand the life of a player but understand the life of an owner as well. But he couldn't be basing his comments on his own experience--that would be crazy talk, so he must be an owner shill.

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11-15-2012, 05:43 PM
  #357
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Or is he a recently retired star player who had his career affected by two work stoppages and now has the ability to not only understand the life of a player but understand the life of an owner as well. But he couldn't be basing his comments on his own experience--that would be crazy talk, so he must be an owner shill.

His career benefited greatly from the first stoppage. He didn't fare as well ten years later for the second one. As I said earlier, some of the experiences may be affected by the career cycle when the stoppage happens.

One should ask Recchi how he felt about the first stoppage.

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11-15-2012, 05:52 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
There are two sides to communication, speaking and listening. If misinformation is presented regarding a dialogue, we need evidence of whether it was in the speaking or listening half. I am no fan of Fehr, but it is possible that Crosby didn't hear or didn't understand Fehr. Crosby does bear responsibility for either his lack of understanding or his unwillingness to verify that which was communicated to him. Historically, players have tended to not involve themselves in the PA until the CBA expiration rolls around. If you listen to quotes from players about electing reps, it is not uncommon for some player to agree to be a rep because no one else will and it is not uncommon for a team to be without a rep because someone stepped down or was traded and no one was willing to step up.

From all the history of quotes coming from players about representation, I doubt whether their are more than a half dozen who are consistently interested in what the PA is doing enough to investigate information that is told them.

If anything, I would hope that Fehr is inspiring them to get more involved in the organization that considerably effects all of their lives.
Fehr's job is to communicate to his membership clearly enough that they will understand. Cosby's not alone in that, when pressed for details of what they're fighting for, he gets it wrong.

In normal structures, such as, say, representative democracy, the masses choose people from their ranks to act as go betweens and understand these issues better to act as a 'check' against the executive (in this case Fehr). The PA has traditionally done this.

However,

Fehr doesn't work within that structure. He selects 5 or 6 guys, who may or may not be among this group in week one, then selects 5 or 6 other guys who may or may not be among this group the next week. Systemically, this structure is designed so nobody will have a clear picture of what's going on. Fehr's model is the same as Eagleson's and nothing like Goodenow's (and let's not forget, Goodenow is the only Executive director to ever do thing one in this union's interest apart from, perhaps, Kelly in his capacity as a prosecutor).

Interest or not, there can be nobody with whom "to investigate information that is told them." There's nobody to ask except the guy who has failed at informing them.

Who are they going to ask, the brother of the guy who's got them believing they're fighting for things that aren't at issue, like rollbacks and long entry level deals?

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11-15-2012, 06:09 PM
  #359
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Whether or not Fehr or the individual players are responsible (even though it is quite obviously Fehr), players, especially the ones closest to negotiations, not knowing the details is a huge problem.

We have seen from the letters Fehr has sent out to the players, how he twists words and introduces bias.

We might actually have a CBA signed right now if all of the players knew what was actually going on, and the fact that they don't suggests a major problem with the structure of the NHLPA.

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11-15-2012, 06:10 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Whether or not Fehr or the individual players are responsible (even though it is quite obviously Fehr), players, especially the ones closest to negotiations, not knowing the details is a huge problem.

We have seen from the letters Fehr has sent out to the players, how he twists words and introduces bias.

We might actually have a CBA signed right now if all of the players knew what was actually going on, and the fact that they don't suggests a major problem with the structure of the NHLPA.
If that indeed is the case, they will only have themselves to blame for hiring him and following him.

I personally have little doubt that he's doing what they want him to do, but none of us are going to convince each other differently at this point.

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11-15-2012, 06:15 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Fehr's job is to communicate to his membership clearly enough that they will understand. Cosby's not alone in that, when pressed for details of what they're fighting for, he gets it wrong.

In normal structures, such as, say, representative democracy, the masses choose people from their ranks to act as go betweens and understand these issues better to act as a 'check' against the executive (in this case Fehr). The PA has traditionally done this.

However,

Fehr doesn't work within that structure. He selects 5 or 6 guys, who may or may not be among this group in week one, then selects 5 or 6 other guys who may or may not be among this group the next week. Systemically, this structure is designed so nobody will have a clear picture of what's going on. Fehr's model is the same as Eagleson's and nothing like Goodenow's (and let's not forget, Goodenow is the only Executive director to ever do thing one in this union's interest apart from, perhaps, Kelly in his capacity as a prosecutor).

Interest or not, there can be nobody with whom "to investigate information that is told them." There's nobody to ask except the guy who has failed at informing them.

Who are they going to ask, the brother of the guy who's got them believing they're fighting for things that aren't at issue, like rollbacks and long entry level deals?
IMO, the structure is a minor issue. You prompt me for a philosophical rant where I will try to be brief. The core issues are motivation to learn and skepticism about that which is conveyed. Our society promotes a trust in "expertise". Ostensibly that expertise is conferred on those who appear further along the lines of the search for truth. The problem is that we find out years later that those experts have wandered off the path. If anything, the correction involves motivating others to travel the path with a critical (skeptical) eye to where the expert is and to areas in which he may have lost his way.

I don't think structure truly addresses the issue, because you are further putting reliance on secondary expertise of those within the structure. IMO, the better way is have more involvement promoting ALL others to check the path to truth.

My take about the current situation is that there is an extreme lack of motivation to follow the path. And, I don't know a good way of encouraging better motivation.

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11-15-2012, 06:28 PM
  #362
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I see it as hypocritical through wanting the best for the players, when history seems to suggest the a unified PA tends to produce what's best for the players. Disrespectful, certainly.

Anyway, you could both be right, but I think history tends to be on the side of the union.
So you must believe that the deal that gets signed will be so much better for the players that it will justify all the money their losing?


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11-15-2012, 06:34 PM
  #363
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If that indeed is the case, they will only have themselves to blame for hiring him and following him.

I personally have little doubt that he's doing what they want him to do, but none of us are going to convince each other differently at this point.
Well at least you finally replied to one of my posts.

I am sure Fehr is doing what at least a select few players want him to do. But if they themselves don't know the details, which has been proven time and time again to be true, then what they want him to do is not going to be the proper response for the situation.

You can't be the sole voice interpreting discussions, conveying select information, and telling uneducated people what they should do, and then say "well the decision was all theirs...".

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11-15-2012, 06:35 PM
  #364
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He has the benefit of his own perspective, an aging veteran who did reach UFA status until 31, thrust into a capped league on the downside of his career. It cost him more than it cost Kovalchuk. Who else benefited from the UFA age coming down, gaining millions of dollars in pay ahead of the old schedule?

Crosby, AO, Spezza, Heatley, Zetterberg, Lecavalier, Chara, Redden, Gomez, Toews, Kane, Doughty, Keith, Seabrook, Green, Richards, Richards, Carter........ and so on.
Except the players are not only fighting UFA and contract rights. They want a $600 million make whole provision; more than double what was offered, in addition to the aforementioned. Recchi is hardly lying when he says things are not going to get better if this impasse continues.

Kovalchuk has already lost a little more two million by approximation and stands to lose eleven should this drag on for the season. That is several times the loss he would incur under even the owner's most draconian offer.


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11-15-2012, 06:51 PM
  #365
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The PA was locked out, and the NHL's starting position proposed a massive rollback and huge concessions on player rights won in previous decades.
I see you are easily fooled. The NHL's starting position was to begin negotiations one year ago. The NHL also wanted to initiate a realignment of divisions which made total sense but that was nixed as Fehr flexed his muscles... not for the greater good but just for the sake of flexing them.

Bettman may be hated but he is no fool. Had the season begun, Fehr could have easily submarined it with a player strike before the playoffs. Does anyone remember the stunt he pulled in MLB?

Fehr set the tone for these negotiations long before the September 15th deadline. His reputation has preceded him.

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11-15-2012, 07:00 PM
  #366
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The NHL's starting position was to begin negotiations one year ago. The NHL also wanted to initiate a realignment of divisions which made total sense but that was nixed as Fehr flexed his muscles... not for the greater good but just for the sake of flexing them.

Bettman may be hated but he is no fool. Had the season begun, Fehr could have easily submarined it with a player strike before the playoffs. Does anyone remember the stunt he pulled in MLB?

Fehr set the tone for these negotiations long before the September 15th deadline. His reputation has preceded him.

Neither Bettman nor Fehr are fools.

You are doing what the NHL does by framing the argument in such a way that paints only one side as bad or foolish.

Starting negotiations a year ago would not have changed how much the NHL wanted in concessions. It's not the timing of the negotiations but the extreme terms from the NHL that delay resolution.

The union that signs that deal has not raison d'etre any longer in terms of protecting player rights. They're basically a rubber stamp.


The alignment was ridiculous, and indicative of Bettman caving to the NHL's most powerful core of teams in the Atlantic and NE.

As for Fehr's track record, yes, let's just overlook the Commissioner of Lockouts. He's known to be accommodating and easy to deal with from the NHLPA side.

Perhaps you're the one who easily fooled.

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11-15-2012, 07:14 PM
  #367
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So you must believe that the deal that gets signed will be so much better for the players that it will justify all the money their losing?
Well, labour relations is barely about the battle; so I think it's not as easily quantifiable as you might think.

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11-15-2012, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by crazyforhockey View Post
intresting that Reechi is partners with Kamloops Blazers...... Gaglardi whos also the owner of the Dallas Stars


so is he a former player with an opnion or is he now a NHL shrill with a selfish purpose??????
Or just someone no one cares about anymore trying to get some attention?

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11-15-2012, 07:29 PM
  #369
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Except the players are not only fighting UFA and contract rights. They want a $600 million make whole provision; more than double what was offered, in addition to the aforementioned. Recchi is hardly lying when he says things are not going to get better if this impasse continues.

Kovalchuk has already lost a little more two million by approximation and stands to lose eleven should this drag on for the season. That is several times the loss he would incur under even the owner's most draconian offer.

Both sides are fighting for the same things--- the money and the contracting rights. To the extent each side will give on one point or the other is why we're still here, they have to figure out what's most important to them. I think the players will dig in more on the contracting issues, feeling they're giving up enough by going to 50%. As I've stated before, the league "should" flex on their demands on the contracting rights. They should have enough if they can tweak the variance clause to address their cap circumventing concerns.

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11-15-2012, 07:37 PM
  #370
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Neither Bettman nor Fehr are fools.

You are doing what the NHL does by framing the argument in such a way that paints only one side as bad or foolish.

Starting negotiations a year ago would not have changed how much the NHL wanted in concessions. It's not the timing of the negotiations but the extreme terms from the NHL that delay resolution.

The union that signs that deal has not raison d'etre any longer in terms of protecting player rights. They're basically a rubber stamp.


The alignment was ridiculous, and indicative of Bettman caving to the NHL's most powerful core of teams in the Atlantic and NE.

As for Fehr's track record, yes, let's just overlook the Commissioner of Lockouts. He's known to be accommodating and easy to deal with from the NHLPA side.

Perhaps you're the one who easily fooled.
Fehr is calculated. He didn't want to start negotiations til after june 1st FA market so players would get paid more. Its pretty simple. I'm ok with that, but there are alot of other issues that coulda been discussed and agreed to before hand.

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11-15-2012, 07:53 PM
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Starting negotiations a year ago would not have changed how much the NHL wanted in concessions. It's not the timing of the negotiations but the extreme terms from the NHL that delay resolution.
Starting negotiations a year ago would have led to a similar offer we have now, but sooner.

Instead, the NHLPA waited until the last minute, pushed the cap up in the off-season, and now is trying to get the salaries signed in the off-season, that were already in favour of the players, guaranteed. Which just pushes the talks even further apart. And they accuse the NHL of negotiating in bad faith? Hah.

What about the NHL offer is extreme? Every part has a legitimate reason.

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11-15-2012, 08:30 PM
  #372
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Starting negotiations a year ago would have led to a similar offer we have now, but sooner.

Instead, the NHLPA waited until the last minute, pushed the cap up in the off-season, and now is trying to get the salaries signed in the off-season, that were already in favour of the players, guaranteed. Which just pushes the talks even further apart. And they accuse the NHL of negotiating in bad faith? Hah.

What about the NHL offer is extreme? Every part has a legitimate reason.
Did the players write their own contracts them and forge Leipold's signature?

They were signed in good faith.

I will never understand individuals expecting players to just roll back their salaries, can you imagine that happening to you by your employer? I know I wouldn't really be keen on it happening.

Anyway, timelines are inconsequential as well. We're all well aware of the ramifications of delaying, but there certainly hasn't been a palpable sense of urgency despite how long it took the PA to get to the table.

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11-15-2012, 08:37 PM
  #373
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Did the players write their own contracts them and forge Leipold's signature?

They were signed in good faith.

I will never understand individuals expecting players to just roll back their salaries, can you imagine that happening to you by your employer? I know I wouldn't really be keen on it happening.

Anyway, timelines are inconsequential as well. We're all well aware of the ramifications of delaying, but there certainly hasn't been a palpable sense of urgency despite how long it took the PA to get to the table.
so if your employer came to you and said. Can you take a 24 percent reduction now and over the next 7 years get 50 percent increase you would say no? or how bout now... Take a 12 percent reduction to take an expected 30 percent raise you would say no? I'd jump at that chance

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11-15-2012, 09:29 PM
  #374
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.

I will never understand individuals expecting players to just roll back their salaries, can you imagine that happening to you by your employer? I know I wouldn't really be keen on it happening.
If I worked in a highly competitive industry, at a company that is the only one paying that much, while my co-workers are all facing the same rollback, sure. Why not? Last time it happened to us, we ended up making a ton of money anyways. More than other similar industries.

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11-15-2012, 09:42 PM
  #375
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Both sides are fighting for the same things--- the money and the contracting rights. To the extent each side will give on one point or the other is why we're still here, they have to figure out what's most important to them. I think the players will dig in more on the contracting issues, feeling they're giving up enough by going to 50%. As I've stated before, the league "should" flex on their demands on the contracting rights. They should have enough if they can tweak the variance clause to address their cap circumventing concerns.
That I agree with. The variance clause essentially eliminates cap circumvention that they needn't seek anything else regarding contracts. The amount of "make whole" is still up for debate though, and supposedly there is speculation the players want compensation for the lockout. I just cannot see any scenario where the league bends on that last one.

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