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What the Maple Leafs REALLY need

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Old
11-14-2012, 01:29 PM
  #26
Patty Lee
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Originally Posted by Dontdive View Post
I didn't present any solution. And I think how good the Leaf fans are is worthy of praise. They're in my opinion the best fans in hockey. They're very very loyal, and willing to show it in many ways. They are not the cause of how badly the Leafs have done, for so many years.

Correlation does not always equal causation. There is a correlation between how good the fans are and how this allows the top Leafs brass to not have enough urgency to properly improve the team, but those fans are not the cause.

Note too I didn't specifically insult the coach or GM of the Leafs, because they're not the top brass of the Leafs. I'm pretty sure Brian Burke for example knows he might be fired pretty soon if he doesn't improve things. That implies he has bosses who can do that, right? They're the ones I'm talking about.




I just look at the results. The Leafs haven't won the cup since 1967. They haven't been in the playoffs even in what - seven years?

To me, that's terrible. And depressing.

Here's the weird thing too. It's possible to not have the urgency I'm talking about, and still luck out if the people you hire to do things - like the coach and GM - do the right things themselves.

It's plain a lot of Leaf fans think Burke for example is on the right track, despite his distinct lack of success on the ice.

But whether that's true or not, all that money coming in means his bosses can relax, take it easy, and say "Let's give him another year." And not go all out to find someone better than him.

In pretty much any other city, he'd have been fired by now.
I would bet it's more depressing to the Leafs brass & owners you think are so obtuse

failure does not always equal lack of desire

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11-14-2012, 01:31 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Dontdive View Post
I didn't present any solution. And I think how good the Leaf fans are is worthy of praise. They're in my opinion the best fans in hockey. They're very very loyal, and willing to show it in many ways. They are not the cause of how badly the Leafs have done, for so many years.

Correlation does not always equal causation. There is a correlation between how good the fans are and how this allows the top Leafs brass to not have enough urgency to properly improve the team, but those fans are not the cause.

Note too I didn't specifically insult the coach or GM of the Leafs, because they're not the top brass of the Leafs. I'm pretty sure Brian Burke for example knows he might be fired pretty soon if he doesn't improve things. That implies he has bosses who can do that, right? They're the ones I'm talking about.




I just look at the results. The Leafs haven't won the cup since 1967. They haven't been in the playoffs even in what - seven years?

To me, that's terrible. And depressing.

Here's the weird thing too. It's possible to not have the urgency I'm talking about, and still luck out if the people you hire to do things - like the coach and GM - do the right things themselves.

It's plain a lot of Leaf fans think Burke for example is on the right track, despite his distinct lack of success on the ice.

But whether that's true or not, all that money coming in means his bosses can relax, take it easy, and say "Let's give him another year." And not go all out to find someone better than him.

In pretty much any other city, he'd have been fired by now.
What are you basing that on?

You seem to be confusing incompetence with indifference.

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11-14-2012, 01:31 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by paulster2626 View Post
It's like when the wife starts *****ing about something, and when I take offense, I'm told "it's just how I feel". I need to remind her that just because you feel a certain way, doesn't make it right.

Just because you say you're not trollin' the Leafs fans, doesn't mean you're not trollin' the Leafs fans.
That's probably the most annoying thing and a clear indication that the person knows they are wrong. Or the classic "well that's how I see it" or "to me that's how it is"

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11-14-2012, 01:39 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Dontdive View Post
I didn't present any solution. And I think how good the Leaf fans are is worthy of praise. They're in my opinion the best fans in hockey. They're very very loyal, and willing to show it in many ways. They are not the cause of how badly the Leafs have done, for so many years.

Correlation does not always equal causation. There is a correlation between how good the fans are and how this allows the top Leafs brass to not have enough urgency to properly improve the team, but those fans are not the cause.

Note too I didn't specifically insult the coach or GM of the Leafs, because they're not the top brass of the Leafs. I'm pretty sure Brian Burke for example knows he might be fired pretty soon if he doesn't improve things. That implies he has bosses who can do that, right? They're the ones I'm talking about.


I just look at the results. The Leafs haven't won the cup since 1967. They haven't been in the playoffs even in what - seven years?

To me, that's terrible. And depressing.

Here's the weird thing too. It's possible to not have the urgency I'm talking about, and still luck out if the people you hire to do things - like the coach and GM - do the right things themselves.

It's plain a lot of Leaf fans think Burke for example is on the right track, despite his distinct lack of success on the ice.

But whether that's true or not, all that money coming in means his bosses can relax, take it easy, and say "Let's give him another year." And not go all out to find someone better than him.

In pretty much any other city, he'd have been fired by now.
I think you need to take a look at the teams that have just won the last four cups...

They all took a long time to win the cup, and most of them went through multiple owners to do so. They all had periods of "this team is going nowhere fast" and came out of them. In fact they pretty much went through those periods for similar lengths or longer than the Leafs have (minus the Penguins). Cups are extremely hard to get and the Leafs had some pretty damn good teams over the past couple decades.

It's clear you're a non-Leaf fan trying to stir up something and doing a bad job at it. Go write on something you have an idea about, as you simply have none about this.

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11-14-2012, 01:47 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Dontdive View Post
In pretty much any other city, he'd have been fired by now.
Orly? On what precedent? The god-awful Don Waddell lasted 11 years mismanaging the Atlanta Thrashers for an ownership that desperately needed a winning franchise. Same for Doug MacLean in Columbus. Steve Tambellini has been blowing it up for 4 years now. Garth Snow has been GM of the Islanders since 06; they're pretty damn mediocre. Larry Pleau GM'ed the Blues from a President's Trophy to dead last within 5 years, and continued the march of mediocrity until he stepped down in 2010. Really, I can go on all day. There is no shortage of owners that have given unsuccessful GMs a prolonged tenure.

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11-14-2012, 01:50 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
What are you basing that on?

You seem to be confusing incompetence with indifference.
So who do you think in the Leafs management is incompetent and/or indifferent? Either one is bad, right?

For my part, I don't think Brian Burke is incompetent or indifferent. But he's not getting the results, and in almost any other city he'd have been fired by now.

In a city where winning was a real priority, that firing would have meant someone else would be brought in, meaning at least you'd have a chance of getting someone who would get the results.

But in Toronto? Oh well, let's give him another year. And another year. And another year....

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11-14-2012, 01:54 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Dontdive View Post
So who do you think in the Leafs management is incompetent and/or indifferent? Either one is bad, right?

For my part, I don't think Brian Burke is incompetent or indifferent. But he's not getting the results, and in almost any other city he'd have been fired by now.

In a city where winning was a real priority, that firing would have meant someone else would be brought in, meaning at least you'd have a chance of getting someone who would get the results.

But in Toronto? Oh well, let's give him another year. And another year. And another year....
Indifferent means not caring about winning. Incompetent means not being able to win.

What are you basing it on that any other city would have fired him by now? What is the average tenure of a GM?

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11-14-2012, 02:16 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Dontdive View Post
So who do you think in the Leafs management is incompetent and/or indifferent? Either one is bad, right?

For my part, I don't think Brian Burke is incompetent or indifferent. But he's not getting the results, and in almost any other city he'd have been fired by now.

In a city where winning was a real priority, that firing would have meant someone else would be brought in, meaning at least you'd have a chance of getting someone who would get the results.

But in Toronto? Oh well, let's give him another year. And another year. And another year....
I'm not sure how many cities fire a GM of Burke's stature after only 3.5 years on the job, especially when that job involves completing the teardown of an existing team and the building up of a new team.

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11-14-2012, 02:27 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by rojac View Post
I'm not sure how many cities fire a GM of Burke's stature after only 3.5 years on the job, especially when that job involves completing the teardown of an existing team and the building up of a new team.
you missed the part where it's BB fault the team hasn't been trying since '67

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11-14-2012, 06:31 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Dontdive View Post
I didn't present any solution. And I think how good the Leaf fans are is worthy of praise. They're in my opinion the best fans in hockey. They're very very loyal, and willing to show it in many ways. They are not the cause of how badly the Leafs have done, for so many years.

Correlation does not always equal causation. There is a correlation between how good the fans are and how this allows the top Leafs brass to not have enough urgency to properly improve the team, but those fans are not the cause.

Note too I didn't specifically insult the coach or GM of the Leafs, because they're not the top brass of the Leafs. I'm pretty sure Brian Burke for example knows he might be fired pretty soon if he doesn't improve things. That implies he has bosses who can do that, right? They're the ones I'm talking about.

I just look at the results. The Leafs haven't won the cup since 1967. They haven't been in the playoffs even in what - seven years?

To me, that's terrible. And depressing.

Here's the weird thing too. It's possible to not have the urgency I'm talking about, and still luck out if the people you hire to do things - like the coach and GM - do the right things themselves.

It's plain a lot of Leaf fans think Burke for example is on the right track, despite his distinct lack of success on the ice.

But whether that's true or not, all that money coming in means his bosses can relax, take it easy, and say "Let's give him another year." And not go all out to find someone better than him.

In pretty much any other city, he'd have been fired by now.
It's one thing to hire the right people and its another thing to listen to them and empower them to do their jobs.

Luckily, MLSE already fired Peddie. Unforunately it takes years to recover from the damage that him and the board put on this organization.

The Leafs have only really made moves in the right direction the last few seasons.


Last edited by Ricky Bobby: 11-14-2012 at 07:40 PM.
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Old
11-14-2012, 08:26 PM
  #36
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In pretty much any other city, he'd have been fired by now.
No, he wouldn't have. There is nothing that supports this notion either. Way worse GMs getting way worse results have lasted way longer.

You don't bring in one of the best and most respected GMs in the league (after essentially waiting a year for him to become available), make him GM and President and pay him well for coming here, and then fire him for somebody worse, 4 years into a rebuild.

It just doesn't happen.

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11-14-2012, 08:29 PM
  #37
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Big fanbase =/= Lack of wanting to win

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11-14-2012, 08:32 PM
  #38
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Skill isn't the issue. We don't have any character players or team identity IMHO

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11-14-2012, 09:30 PM
  #39
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Skill isn't the issue. We don't have any character players or team identity IMHO
Skill is most definitely the biggest issue!

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11-14-2012, 10:13 PM
  #40
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Who the hell takes anyone seriously who quotes The Princess Bride? Honestly guys, WTF?

LOCKOUT MUST END...

And yes, the Leafs still need a goalie. And a #1C - need that too.
Without that movie, I wouldn't have known that you should never get involved in a land war in Asia.

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11-15-2012, 12:16 AM
  #41
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“Nonsense. You’re only saying that because no one ever has.”
― William Goldman, The Princess Bride

We need a CBA, a 1c, and a goalie. Leaf fans will always support our team, one day, one day...

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Old
11-15-2012, 12:27 AM
  #42
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The only thing that a company that makes a ton of money wants, is to make more money.

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Old
11-15-2012, 12:55 AM
  #43
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The biggest thing (outside goaltending) the leafs need is a defensive team system! If you look at the majority of the teams over the past 15-20 years that have won the cup or even just gone deep in the playoffs its because of a DEFENSE FIRST system, Burke can say "run n gun" is entertaining (maybe it is) but its a sloppy system that has no bases in the NHL today.

I have watched the leafs since 93 and for the past 4-6 years its been pathetic defensive team, it's absurd how often they get pinned in their own end, its embarassing to see the players constantly trying to make a pass in their own end with it 90% of the time being turned over. Under Wilson his idea of "defense" was sit back and let the guy either come to u and then body check him or sit back and attempt a shot block, we constantly give the other team far too much time/space to execute plays against us. We have the speed, so really it should be used to take time/space away from the other team and to make them nervous in our own end, I'm all for shot blocking/hitting BUT there is a time and place for it.

The other big thing we need is goaltending but that much is obvious lol, I'm not going to beat a dead horse on that subject.

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11-15-2012, 12:57 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
Skill is most definitely the biggest issue!
Have to disagree with this! We have plenty of offensive skill, the problem is players not wanting to play defense and heart/soul type players. The leafs are an above average beat you on the rush type team but cockblock the neutral zone and we are very easy to shutdown and beat.

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11-15-2012, 03:11 PM
  #45
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So I guess OP saw his argument categorically de-constructed and ran away?

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11-15-2012, 03:28 PM
  #46
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I agree with everything you said, that's why I feel bad for the leafs fans that have been watching the team for so many years fail. I myself am a bandwagon fan of all the Toronto teams. I started watching the leafs last season because I actually fell into the hype for the first time in about 5 years break. I really wanted to cheer for my home team for a long time and never had the chance. But I feel sorry and also baffled on how some people can watch a team like the leafs fail year after year and still buy tickets and merchandise, supporting mlse failure over and over. MLSE knows they can only spend just so much money to satisfy a fan for a season. They do this every year and nothing ever changes. I'm just glad I have the bandwagon fan mentality and didn't waste years on any of the Toronto teams because till I see some big changes in the organization it's just not worth my time, I have always wished people would do the same to show the rich that they can't just milk them for the same or slightly different garbage product every year.

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11-15-2012, 03:44 PM
  #47
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So I guess OP saw his argument categorically de-constructed and ran away?
Purty much.

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11-15-2012, 04:35 PM
  #48
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Have to disagree with this! We have plenty of offensive skill, the problem is players not wanting to play defense and heart/soul type players. The leafs are an above average beat you on the rush type team but cockblock the neutral zone and we are very easy to shutdown and beat.
Our 3 biggest weaknesses are:

-We don't have good goaltending (skill)

-We don't have a 1st line center (skill)

-We only have 1 top pairing dman (skill)

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11-15-2012, 04:55 PM
  #49
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So who do you think in the Leafs management is incompetent and/or indifferent? Either one is bad, right?

For my part, I don't think Brian Burke is incompetent or indifferent. But he's not getting the results, and in almost any other city he'd have been fired by now.

In a city where winning was a real priority, that firing would have meant someone else would be brought in, meaning at least you'd have a chance of getting someone who would get the results.

But in Toronto? Oh well, let's give him another year. And another year. And another year....
If you can show me one example of a GM taking a team little better than an expansion team and making them a contender in 4 years I will consider your opinon, otherwise I have to think you are off the mark pretty badly....

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11-15-2012, 06:43 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
Our 3 biggest weaknesses are:

-We don't have good goaltending (skill)

-We don't have a 1st line center (skill)

-We only have 1 top pairing dman (skill)
I think you misread what I meant by skill, I meant offensive talent upfront (Lupul, Kessel, Grabo, JVR, Kulemin) we have enough talent to play with the big boys but like I said we are lacking defensive smarts, heart/soul players and yes a legit goalie.

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