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Off-season Madness the 4th: and here we wait in trade-completion limbo

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Old
11-15-2012, 07:22 PM
  #251
Nasty Nazem
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Originally Posted by thatshype View Post
I actually remembering hearing about the 120M budget around the same time that we locked up Bautista long-term. It's actually quite admirable that Anthopolous has had that kind of budget for so long but did not (pardon my french...) blow his wad prematurely. He waited for a good time and he took it.

I think the extra money that we have on the budget will probably stay empty. We may need the flexibility for a mid-season move, and we also might need that money to stay competitive with Josh Johnson's agent if he has a good season.
Yes, we had heard that the payroll could "eventually" get to 120M... but it was never clear when that would be and I don't think anyone expected it to be this season. In fact, Shi Davidi was doing his salary projections for the Jays this season and figured Jays may only have 10-15M to play around with.

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Originally Posted by mpleafan View Post
Dont know if its been posted but,
@Ken_Rosenthal: #BlueJays fans: Teams prefer to go into seasons with MORE than five starters. Again, Jays want one more.

who yall think it could be?
Not surprising. Been saying Jays still need another starter... at least one with options anyways. They NEED to have depth -- cannot go into season relying on your 5 guys to stay healthy all year long. Don't have much to call-up either other than maybe Jenkins and McGuire (UGH to both) and possibly Nolin, but he just reached AA late into the season. Pitchers will most likely have to pass through Buffalo now to reach majors.

I don't think it has to be a particularly established major leaguer either but somebody who is ready or near ready with a moderate amount of upside. If you can get a guy that's only 1 or 2 seasons into his big league career and has options left, that makes sense too.

Oh and this should kill any speculation of JJ potentially being a trade bait (lets face it, Jays at this point probably wouldn't even entertain the idea):

Ken Rosenthal ‏@Ken_Rosenthal
On #BlueJays: Anything is possible, but team did not get J. Johnson to flip him. Reality is, Jays still need - and want - one more starter.

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Old
11-15-2012, 07:28 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by weems View Post
Could be anyone!?

I wouldnt mind B McCarthy on a 2 year deal.
I can't see McCarthy getting a 2 year deal unless its low on salary. Bet he takes a 1yr deal and tries to rebuild value.

If Jays are fine with moving Happ to the bullpen, I think McCarthy makes a lot of sense. He is most likely to get injured but if you can get 120-150 good innings out of him, you take that. Happ can take over when he or if any other starter goes down.

EDIT: Jays should totally go after Haren too on a 1 year deal. Bet its an a lot easier sell now for the FA. Maybe Scott Feldman too? Been used in starting and reliving role -- has underlying peripherals.

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11-15-2012, 07:31 PM
  #253
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As for Trout winning the MVP, he's still just a punk kid. Let him wait awhile before giving him big awards.

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11-15-2012, 07:33 PM
  #254
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Since we have a $120 Million payroll and we are projected to be at $113 after arbitration I would love to see us trade Buerhle -$11 Million and then make a serious go at Grienke now that we have made a big statement and backload the majority of the money to next year and beyond when the new TV deal money starts flowing in. Just think of the rotation then where its.

Grienke
Johnson
Morrow
Romero
Happ

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11-15-2012, 07:33 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Drew311 View Post
That news must have ruined Mathis' hunting trip.
a millionaire that has the next what 4 months off being told he has to move to Florida to make more millions. I can think of worse things.

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11-15-2012, 07:35 PM
  #256
Nasty Nazem
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Originally Posted by rojac View Post
As for Trout winning the MVP, he's still just a punk kid. Let him wait awhile before giving him big awards.
What? Punk kid?

Why do you have to wait awhile before giving him the MVP award when he deserves it? Absurd reasoning.

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11-15-2012, 07:36 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by dredeye View Post
a millionaire that has the next what 4 months off being told he has to move to Florida to make more millions. I can think of worse things.
Yeah but the worst feeling as an athlete is losing.

Just imagine what is going through Stanton's head these past few days.

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11-15-2012, 07:39 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Eyedea View Post
Yeah but the worst feeling as an athlete is losing.

Just imagine what is going through Stanton's head these past few days.
For a journeyman back up catcher who may now get a starting role I'm sure he's happy to play anywhere. I get what your saying losing sucks for anyone but I'm sure he'll be fine.

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11-15-2012, 07:39 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Woodman19 View Post
Since we have a $120 Million payroll and we are projected to be at $113 after arbitration I would love to see us trade Buerhle -$11 Million and then make a serious go at Grienke now that we have made a big statement and backload the majority of the money to next year and beyond when the new TV deal money starts flowing in. Just think of the rotation then where its.

Grienke
Johnson
Morrow
Romero
Happ
Meh. I dont think Greinke even wants to come here. I'd prefer trading Buehrle for something and then going out and signing Sanchez.

Johnson
Morrow
Romero
Sanchez
Happ

Thats still a very good rotation. Only thing is, we miss out on getting 200+ innings of solid pitching. But Sanchez could do that.

What do you guys think we could get for Buerhle (assuming he's going to get traded and that the trade happens)

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11-15-2012, 07:40 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Woodman19 View Post
Since we have a $120 Million payroll and we are projected to be at $113 after arbitration I would love to see us trade Buerhle -$11 Million and then make a serious go at Grienke now that we have made a big statement and backload the majority of the money to next year and beyond when the new TV deal money starts flowing in. Just think of the rotation then where its.

Grienke
Johnson
Morrow
Romero
Happ
What market would there be for Buerhle in all seriousness? Not sure what the potential return could be for him. But if they could convince Grienke to come that would be just ridiculous. The problem I see with that is finding the money to re up JJ if they wanted to.

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11-15-2012, 07:42 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by The Nemesis View Post
I disagree. Cabrera had a very very good season. It's absolutely reasonable that he was in the conversation (and somewhat defensible that he won). I still think Trout did more in a more impressive fashion from a more impressive position, and that Cabrera got too much weight put on the triple crown as a somewhat arbitrary thing (which I only have a problem with insofar as I have problems with batting average and rbi as valuable stats), but I don't think it's fair to say that Cabrera wouldn't be in serious consideration without the glitz of the triple crown.
On what grounds does Cabrera deserve to be in the conversation for AL MVP with Mike Trout?

From a defensive stand-point, Mike Trout was ranked the best centre fielder in the AL by: UZR, DRS and The Fielding Bible. Miguel Cabrera by comparison was ranked as a below average defensive 3B by: UZR and DRS. Defensively, Trout is the superior player, and that is before we even take the difficulty of positions into account.

From an offensive stand-point, Mike Trout and Miguel Cabrera were virtually identical,

Cabrera: .393 OBP, .417 wOBA, .166 wRC+
Trout: .399 OBP, .409 wOBA, .166 wRC+

The only notable offensive gap is with respect to power, Cabrera posted a .277 ISO rate, compared with Trout's .238, but that is off-set by the fact that Trout plays a scarcer position, with a lower average offensive output.

Further consider their RE24 rates,

Mike Trout: +54.27
Miguel Cabrera: +47.43

Quote:
RE24 is essentially the difference between the run expectancy when a hitter comes to the plate and when his at-bat ends.

Unlike with context-neutral statistics like wRC+, RE24 takes the number of outs and number of baserunners into account. It does not assume that all home runs are equal, nor does it treat a strikeout with a man on third base and one out as just another out. The rewards for performing with men on base are higher, and the blame for failing in those same situations is steeper as well. This is a metric that essentially quantifies the total offensive value of a player based on the situations that he actually faced. This is not a theoretical metric. If you hit a three run home run, you get more credit than if you hit a solo home run. If you are consistently getting hits with two outs to drive in runs, you get more credit than if those hits come with no outs and the bases empty. And, of course, it’s only an offensive metric, so there’s no defensive component, no position adjustments, and no replacement level. This is just straight up offense, adjusted for the context of the situations that they faced.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index...text-included/

Finally, from a base running stand-point, Mike Trout lead all of baseball in SB with 49 in just 139 games, and the highest base running rate in baseball with 12 runs above average, almost 4 runs higher than the next highest ranked position player (Jimmy Rollins 8.3). Miguel Cabrera by comparison finished with a meagre 3 SB, and below average base running rate of -2.8.

Defensively and on the base-paths Mike Trout is objectively superior. Offensively Mike Trout is at worst equal to Miguel Cabrera, and a strong case can be made that he has slight edge due to the scarcity of offence at CF, and his RE24 rates. All of these things are exemplified by Trout's league leading WAR total of 10.0, a full 2 WAR better than the next highest ranked position player (Buster Posey, 8.0), and nearly 3 WAR higher than Miguel Cabrera. None of this is to mention the fact that Mike Trout lead his team to a better record in a harder division, so even if one were to debate the difference of MVP vs. Most Outstanding Player they would still have to concede that Mike Trout was far and away the better choice than Miguel Cabrera, or anyone else for that matter.

The only possible justification for voting Miguel Cabrera MVP over Mike Trout is the, "triple-crown" narrative, which is completely, and utterly indefensible. If the criteria for winning MVP was accomplishing a rare feat, than Josh Hamilton should have been co-MVP for the simple fact that a 4 HR game is just as infrequent as the triple-crown.

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11-15-2012, 07:44 PM
  #262
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What's wrong with bringing Villanueava back for a spot 5th starter/long relief role? Or is he asking for too much money/wants to start regularly?

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11-15-2012, 07:47 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by The Amazing Ralph View Post
What's wrong with bringing Villanueava back for a spot 5th starter/long relief role? Or is he asking for too much money/wants to start regularly?
I question his durability. His stats drop off after, what I believe is around 100 innings. I dont know if he can go 30 starts. Plus, we already have Happ, but more depth wouldnt hurt.

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11-15-2012, 07:47 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Jozay View Post
Meh. I dont think Greinke even wants to come here. I'd prefer trading Buehrle for something and then going out and signing Sanchez.

Johnson
Morrow
Romero
Sanchez
Happ

Thats still a very good rotation. Only thing is, we miss out on getting 200+ innings of solid pitching. But Sanchez could do that.

What do you guys think we could get for Buerhle (assuming he's going to get traded and that the trade happens)
Honestly I would rather go with Edwin Jackson over Buerhle just because of the stuff upside.

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11-15-2012, 07:48 PM
  #265
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AA wanted Buehrle too, he's not going anywhere.

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11-15-2012, 07:49 PM
  #266
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i heard romero say on fan590 last night he doesnt care where he pitches 3rd 4th or 5th
i guess he was excited LOL

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11-15-2012, 07:49 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by Woodman19 View Post
Honestly I would rather go with Edwin Jackson over Buerhle just because of the stuff upside.
Would you go Jackson>Sanchez.

Thats what it came down to with me, but I like Sanchez more.

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11-15-2012, 07:49 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by The Amazing Ralph View Post
What's wrong with bringing Villanueava back for a spot 5th starter/long relief role? Or is he asking for too much money/wants to start regularly?
I believe he wants to start 30 games. That right there probably scares AA, as well as several other GMs.

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11-15-2012, 07:49 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by dredeye View Post
What market would there be for Buerhle in all seriousness? Not sure what the potential return could be for him. But if they could convince Grienke to come that would be just ridiculous. The problem I see with that is finding the money to re up JJ if they wanted to.
Well, Buerhle is very durable and can be a solid innings eater for a team with some payroll to burn ala Chicago Cubs. Also we can kick in the $8 Million coming our way in that deal to make the financial implications reduced to only $40 million over 3 years, much more affordable for a team in need of a veteran rotation presence.

Also with Buck and Lind's contract coming off the books and a nice $52 Million TV revenue starting in 2014 I doubt there is any issue retaining Josh Johnson and having a Payroll in the 140-150 million range in the next few years, especially if the fans start showing up again.

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11-15-2012, 07:49 PM
  #270
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Why do you guys want to move Buehrle? Guys is a workhorse

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11-15-2012, 07:50 PM
  #271
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You think something like Buerhle++ for Trumbo would work?

*This really only happens if the Angels feel like they wont resign Greinke.*

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11-15-2012, 07:51 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by Jozay View Post
Would you go Jackson>Sanchez.

Thats what it came down to with me, but I like Sanchez more.
Sanchez has better stuff and track record as well as a slight velocity spike. Jackson has a bigger frame and seems to be slightly less of an injury risk due to that and Sanchez' previous injury (not that I am saying its a major concern either way) but for those reasons I would go with Sanchez as well. Jackson might better fit in with our payroll parameters and term.

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11-15-2012, 07:51 PM
  #273
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Why do you guys want to move Buehrle? Guys is a workhorse
He might not report to the Jays because of the pitbull situation.

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11-15-2012, 07:51 PM
  #274
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Originally Posted by p.l.f. View Post
i heard romero say on fan590 last night he doesnt care where he pitches 3rd 4th or 5th
i guess he was excited LOL
He's a trooper, and he knows if he pitches well then the team will do well. We really needed him to step up this year but he couldn't manage, so I hope he can rebound next year with less pressure and all.

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11-15-2012, 07:52 PM
  #275
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Why do you guys want to move Buehrle? Guys is a workhorse
he's literally the perfect pitcher for us. great ERA, inning eater, consistent as they come.

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