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Old
11-15-2012, 05:31 PM
  #626
seanlinden
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
Are Kadri and TO 1st valued the same?

I'd much rather have a TO first (15ish) then Kadri.
No, they're not. The first is more valuable than Kadri.

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Old
11-15-2012, 05:33 PM
  #627
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
No, they're not. The first is more valuable than Kadri.
That's what I was thinking as well.

Kadri needs a change of scenery but he might be too old to become a Gillis type player. He needs at least 1-2 years of seasoning down in Chicago before AV trusts him enough.

Like you referred to earlier Kadri is the type of player that your team values much more than Gillis would. I'd rather keep our 1st (late) than trade it for Kadri.

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Old
11-15-2012, 05:36 PM
  #628
seanlinden
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
That's what I was thinking as well.

Kadri needs a change of scenery but he might be too old to become a Gillis type player. He needs at least 1-2 years of seasoning down in Chicago before AV trusts him enough.

Like you referred to earlier Kadri is the type of player that your team values much more than Gillis would. I'd rather keep our 1st (late) than trade it for Kadri.
Kadri is a player who is probably overvalued by Toronto, but that's nothing more than poor judgement by Brian Burke who refuses to admit that he's grossly mishandled Kadri.

Seeing as Vancouver has an older team than the Leafs, without many prospects challenging for NHL spots, and less depth forwards, Kadri should be valued higher by the Canucks.

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Old
11-15-2012, 05:40 PM
  #629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Seeing as Vancouver has an older team than the Leafs, without many prospects challenging for NHL spots, and less depth, Kadri should be valued higher by the Canucks.
Vancouver has much much more depth on the wings. He may never have the defensive skills to be a permanent fixture on the 2nd/3rd lines, something Jensen does. He also plays a relatively finesse game where a prospect like Kassian does not.

At C Kadri won't be able to crack the top 2 lines for another 3+ years. Our #3Cs are used in a shutdown role (like Lappy, Manny and Pahlsson). Hodgson was sheltered to increase his trade value, I doubt Kadri gets that luxury.

It makes much more sense IMO that a rebuilding team values a prospect more than a contending team. The Leafs also lack in impact players so a prospect capable of becoming one is going to be valued more to them.

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Old
11-15-2012, 05:43 PM
  #630
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
Drop Vancouvers 2nd so its

Kadri + Biggs + 2nd
For
Luongo.
Still no, Biggs is a no go.


To Van

Kadri
Franson
MacArther or Lombardi
Scrivens
Conditional 2nd '14(If we make the playoffs next season)

to Tor

Luongo
Prospect(Not Jensen or Guance)
6th round pick '13

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Old
11-15-2012, 05:51 PM
  #631
seanlinden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
Vancouver has much much more depth on the wings. He may never have the defensive skills to be a permanent fixture on the 2nd/3rd lines, something Jensen does. He also plays a relatively finesse game where a prospect like Kassian does not.

At C Kadri won't be able to crack the top 2 lines for another 3+ years. Our #3Cs are used in a shutdown role (like Lappy, Manny and Pahlsson). Hodgson was sheltered to increase his trade value, I doubt Kadri gets that luxury.

It makes much more sense IMO that a rebuilding team values a prospect more than a contending team. The Leafs also lack in impact players so a prospect capable of becoming one is going to be valued more to them.
Sedin, Burrows, Booth, Raymond, Hansen, Kassian, Lapierre

vs

Kessel, Lupul, JvR, Kulemin, MacArthur, Connolly, Lombardi.

Who's got more room for a project with the potential to play in the top 6 short term? Here's a hint: Not the team with 5 proven quality top 6 wingers. The spot for Kadri is somewhere between the 2nd and 3rd lines immidiately. Vancouver is in a better position to accomodate that than Toronto, obviously it's close, and a true rebuilding team like Columbus would make more sense, but Vancouver certainly has the edge here.

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Old
11-15-2012, 05:51 PM
  #632
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rare Jewel View Post
To Van
Kadri
Franson
MacArther or Lombardi
Scrivens
Conditional 2nd '14(If we make the playoffs next season)
Kadri - prospect, value is arguable but definitely not an A prospect
Franson - #6/7 dman, easily acquirable through UFA/trade
MacArthur - decent tweener
Lombardi - overpaid #4C, could rebound to #3C. #3C have cost 3rd/4th rounders for Gillis
Scrivens - AHL starter(?) redundant asset due to Eddie Lack
2nd - barely with value

Whole bunch of spare parts. Gonna be a resounding no thanks from Gillis IMO.

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Old
11-15-2012, 05:52 PM
  #633
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Originally Posted by Mystifo View Post
We don't have a problem with Kadri + Conditional first. What I do not like is adding in Biggs and Colborne. Honestly Colborne is our best shot at a big center right now and well Biggs is exactly what Burke wanted in a team trading him away just makes our team that much smaller. Also right now Biggs is playing well in the OHL and should be ready for the Marlies next year or even push for a job on our 3rd line. Rather keep him around.
Kadri + conditional 1st likely isn't enough to get a deal done, although I understand where you're coming from with Biggs and Colborne. We could really use another RHD prospect... I would be okay with Percy or Blacker instead. Still not high on Kadri though.

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Old
11-15-2012, 05:53 PM
  #634
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Sedin, Burrows, Booth, Raymond, Hansen, Kassian, Lapierre

vs

Kessel, Lupul, JvR, Kulemin, MacArthur, Connolly, Lombardi.
You're forgetting Higgins.

Kadri isn't good enough to crack the top 6 or defensively sound/physical enough for the bottom 6.

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Old
11-15-2012, 05:57 PM
  #635
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Btw if JVR is a "proven quality top 6 winger" with a career high of 40 points then no reason why Mason Raymond shouldn't be either.

Edit: Hansen just had a 39 point season, why isn't he considered a top 6 winger?

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Old
11-15-2012, 05:58 PM
  #636
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyLager View Post
Kadri + conditional 1st likely isn't enough to get a deal done, although I understand where you're coming from with Biggs and Colborne. We could really use another RHD prospect... I would be okay with Percy or Blacker instead. Still not high on Kadri though.
I'd add Blacker to Kadri and cond.1st.

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Old
11-15-2012, 06:01 PM
  #637
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To be honest I'm happy to have found common ground with at least some Leafs fans. There's not much else we can discuss until a trade actually happens. I suppose the main question now isn't of Luongo's value, but simply how much Toronto could feasibly offer compared to Edmonton/Florida. It's reasonable to think TO goes the hardest after Luongo, but there's still a wide range of opinions by Leafs fans.

Lupul, cond 1st, and a b prospect/roster player is fine by me, and several Leafs fans are okay with that. There's no pleasing everyone, though.

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Old
11-15-2012, 06:07 PM
  #638
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
You're forgetting Higgins.

Kadri isn't good enough to crack the top 6 or defensively sound/physical enough for the bottom 6.
No I'm not. He's at centre until the Canucks get somebody to fill that void.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
So you would use your firsts for rentals.. But not for a guy under contract?

Biggs was picked 22nd overall.. Its not like were talking about moving Huberdeau or Nail by any means here. Thats like us saying we wouldnt move Jordan Schroeder...
Because Raymond is 27 years old and has passed 40 points once in his career. Hansen fits better on a 3rd line anyways.

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Old
11-15-2012, 06:09 PM
  #639
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I'd add Blacker to Kadri and cond.1st.
Yeah, I thought you would. More interested to see what other Leafs fans have to say. Although not the two inveterate, argumentative squawk boxes that inevitably rear their heads in all these threads. Heard enough from them for a lifetime.

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Old
11-15-2012, 06:14 PM
  #640
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
No I'm not. He's at centre until the Canucks get somebody to fill that void.
Higgins has been playing as a winger for 99% of his tenure with the Canucks, the majority being our 2nd line LW/RW.

Canucks have Hank, Schroeder, Lappy, and Manny at C. Kesler on the IR until December. Raymond also played a few games as the #3C 2 seasons ago.


Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Because Raymond is 27 years old and has passed 40 points once in his career. Hansen fits better on a 3rd line anyways.
JVR has never surpassed 40 points, at the very least Raymond has hit 50 points once. Raymond and JVR had similar production coming off major injuries.

Hansen is on the 3rd line because of depth, if we didn't have better top 6 options he would play there. During injuries/slumps Hansen regularly plays in the top 6.

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Old
11-15-2012, 06:18 PM
  #641
seanlinden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
Higgins has been playing as a winger for 99% of his tenure with the Canucks, the majority being our 2nd line LW/RW.

Canucks have Hank, Schroeder, Lappy, and Manny at C. Kesler on the IR until December. Raymond also played a few games as the #3C 2 seasons ago.



JVR has never surpassed 40 points, at the very least Raymond has hit 50 points once. Raymond and JVR had similar production coming off major injuries.

Hansen is on the 3rd line because of depth, if we didn't have better top 6 options he would play there. During injuries/slumps Hansen regularly plays in the top 6.
None of those guys are as good a centre as Higgins is (Hank obviously excluded), and that's a weakness.

JvR is 23 years old, substantial difference there.

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Old
11-15-2012, 06:22 PM
  #642
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
None of those guys are as good a centre as Higgins is (Hank obviously excluded), and that's a weakness.

JvR is 23 years old, substantial difference there.
Higgins was tried as a C and it didn't work out. Lappy and Manny are much better suited for bottom six duties.

Kesler comes back in Decemeber, no need at all for Higgins to play C.

JVR being younger doesn't make him any better. He hasn't produced as much as Raymond. If the cut off is 40 points to be a "proven" top 6 option then Raymond is more qualified than JVR.

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Old
11-15-2012, 06:39 PM
  #643
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Originally Posted by LuckyLager View Post
Yeah, I thought you would. More interested to see what other Leafs fans have to say. Although not the two inveterate, argumentative squawk boxes that inevitably rear their heads in all these threads. Heard enough from them for a lifetime.
Lol...ya, i can't figure out if i want the lockout to end more because i want hockey...or i want to see how a Luongo deal works out. (wherever he goes)

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Old
11-15-2012, 07:30 PM
  #644
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
Toronto
Roberto Luongo
2nd Round Pick 2013

Vancouver
Nazem Kadri
Conditional 1st (Burke picks 2013 or 2014)
Tyler Biggs
If I were TO I don't give up a 1st.

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Old
11-15-2012, 07:51 PM
  #645
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In addition to the Players assets that will form the basis of this crucial trade. I am of the opinion that there will be at least 2 draft picks that will come in the return for Luongo.

As someone who is very high on his value I would like them to be 2 Firsts but I think one will be a first rounder and one will be a second rounder. These picks will be for the upcoming year and the next year.

I could see the viable way to protect the First Rounder would be to give the team trading for Luongo the option to decide which year the pick is in the First Round. However, if the team defers the pick to next year there is no protection.

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Old
11-15-2012, 08:03 PM
  #646
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Hey, whats' going on, I thought we already agreed on the deal? Don't you guys remember? Sheesh!

Lombardi + Colborne + Percy + 1st in 2014

for

Raymond + Luongo


Done and done.

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Old
11-15-2012, 08:09 PM
  #647
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
Kadri needs a change of scenery but he might be too old to become a Gillis type player. He needs at least 1-2 years of seasoning down in Chicago before AV trusts him enough.
What the...?

Kadri has consistently taken far less penalties than he's drawn. He's been one of the better Leafs in terms of puck possession and he's only 20 years old. He's definitely NHL ready. His first 51 games he has 19 points, which is 31 over a full season. Not many prospects put up a 31 point season in their first year at age 20/21.

How young does Gillis possibly have to get his hands on a player anyway? Kadri is 22 and won't turn 23 until after the next season starts.. and that might be too old?

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Old
11-15-2012, 08:15 PM
  #648
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyLager View Post
Yeah, I thought you would. More interested to see what other Leafs fans have to say. Although not the two inveterate, argumentative squawk boxes that inevitably rear their heads in all these threads. Heard enough from them for a lifetime.
I would add Blacker to Kadri and the Conditional first. I like Blacker and all I just feel there is no room for him in our organization now.

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Old
11-15-2012, 08:16 PM
  #649
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Have any Canuck fans given the thought of both teams trading their 1st round picks in this deal? Assuming the Maple Leafs 1st round pick is not protected then the Canucks would get at least a top 10 pick if the Toronto misses the Playoffs. However Toronto would still get a 1st round pick from Vancouver between 20-30 overall, assuming the Canucks make the Playoffs.

Personally speaking I still want the Maple Leafs 1st round pick to be conditional on them making the Playoffs. However is there any way the Canucks can also give up there 1st round pick, so both teams still end up with one.

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Old
11-15-2012, 08:17 PM
  #650
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
Hey, whats' going on, I thought we already agreed on the deal? Don't you guys remember? Sheesh!

Lombardi + Colborne + Percy + 1st in 2014

for

Raymond + Luongo


Done and done.
I didn't know this was done......i give it my blessing.

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