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Thread (V): Argos embarass Eskimos; Changes need to be made. Nichols seriously hurt.

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11-14-2012, 11:33 AM
  #626
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I think the head coach's personalirty ISN'T appealing to players, and is part of the problem.
Hate Kavis's coaching if you like, but that's speculation and it's wrong. The players love Kavis. He's a players' coach and he has their support.

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11-14-2012, 11:52 AM
  #627
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Hate Kavis's coaching if you like, but that's speculation and it's wrong. The players love Kavis. He's a players' coach and he has their support.
This statement isn't exactly one I'd be making as a support comment for Kavis.

Sounds like to me the players are taking advantage of him then.

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11-14-2012, 01:28 PM
  #628
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Hate Kavis's coaching if you like, but that's speculation and it's wrong. The players love Kavis. He's a players' coach and he has their support.
Of course it's speculation. we're not all super insiders like yourself. I said "I think", I'm not saying this is true, but it's my opinion only based off of what I read or hear on the telly. that's all we have is opinions and speculating.

If I were a player, I'd be saying wonderful things about Kavis no matter if I liked him or thought him a good coach.
I'd want to keep my job. why would any player in their right mind tell the truth to anyone of how they feel about the coach? I would guess your thoughts are also only speculation.

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11-14-2012, 01:38 PM
  #629
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So, a guy who knows nothing about football (Len Rhodes) is in charge of this club heading into the offseason. They better get someone in here quick to provide some leadership with all these free agents Tillman has piled up at the airport. Have to think we'll be fortunate to bring even 4 or 5 of these guys back.

Order needs to be restored, and that's Reeds area of weakness. Far too few weeks this season, this team appeared prepared.

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11-14-2012, 02:04 PM
  #630
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Of course it's speculation. we're not all super insiders like yourself. I said "I think", I'm not saying this is true, but it's my opinion only based off of what I read or hear on the telly. that's all we have is opinions and speculating.

If I were a player, I'd be saying wonderful things about Kavis no matter if I liked him or thought him a good coach. I'd want to keep my job. why would any player in their right mind tell the truth to anyone of how they feel about the coach? I would guess your thoughts are also only speculation.
You can tell from what the players say publicly and how they say it. A player would not volunteer that opinion unless he meant it. Plus, the reporters who talk to players daily are touting Kavis as a players' coach.

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11-14-2012, 05:45 PM
  #631
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Hate Kavis's coaching if you like, but that's speculation and it's wrong. The players love Kavis. He's a players' coach and he has their support.
I no longer get this take at all.

As I mentioned earlier Kavis is picking his favorites like Joseph not because Joseph is loyal to the org but that he's loyal to Kavis Reed. A coach that is struggling with the dressingroom will ride with what got him there, go with his guys.
Doesn't really matter what their on field performance is like as long as they sing the right song and dance. Kyle Koch for instance is on this football team for no other reason than he says all the right things.

We've seen this act before here when a coach is on the outs desperately riding his donkeys.

You'll remember earlier in the year Kavis had to get Gizmo to talk to Burnett about returns because he wasn't communicating his message adequately. Or because Kavis threw one of his hardest working players under the bus. One of the few that even showed up on Sunday. But Burnett isn't in the good books because he's not immediately amenable to confusing direction.

Or that the entire club seems immune to whatever coaching goes on between games. To wit not knowing who is what unit, not knowing when to be on the field. not knowing assignments. An RB not knowing where to lineup. This team has been loaded with confusion all year which is pretty indicative that the players have tuned the coaching staff out.

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11-14-2012, 05:48 PM
  #632
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You can tell from what the players say publicly and how they say it. A player would not volunteer that opinion unless he meant it. Plus, the reporters who talk to players daily are touting Kavis as a players' coach.
Its a clear case of actions speaking louder than words. The actions of nearly every player on the field Sunday spoke that they're not exactly invested in saving any coaches. Who gives a crap about words? The performance just isn't there for this coaching staff. The entire team quit in the second quarter at some point. Which is disgusting and inexcusable in any playoff game. This is not playing for the coach. The players can say whatever they want. For sure I'll believe what I actually saw. A team with a very fragile confidence, that didn't believe in a gameplan, didn't get behind and stick with a gameplan, and wasn't focused enough or didn't care enough to execute a game plan. The team played one quarter of Football. Then layed down.

If this was boxing I'd say the fix was in and the players couldn't wait to hit the canvas, collect a payday, and get the hell out of dodge as quick as possible. If you think this team looked like a club playing for the coach and that earnestly wanted to continue on I don't know what you were watching.

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11-14-2012, 06:59 PM
  #633
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I heard Reed on the radio this morning and just had to shake my head as I listened to him. Here's a summation "I did nothing wrong, all my decisions were perfect and I'd make all of them again without hesitation. And Kerry wasn't at fault for anything either, not even the shovel pass int."

This franchise is in serious trouble for next season.

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11-14-2012, 07:10 PM
  #634
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The players have Reed right where they want him. Till the coaches bite is up where the barking should've been, they'll continue to have Reed wrapped around their finger.

Reed only has the freedom the players give him right now. They say one thing, then come game time, they revert back to their comfortable habits.

Classic case of Dad's in charge, cuz Mom said so....

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11-14-2012, 09:52 PM
  #635
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Hate Kavis's coaching if you like, but that's speculation and it's wrong. The players love Kavis. He's a players' coach and he has their support.
Players like who, Joseph?

I can't imagine Charles could be a fan of Kavis' after being inexplicably benched after ramming the ball down Toronto's throat on Sunday. I doubt Matt Nichols is all that fond of the guy who waits until the game is already lost to throw him in there to orchestrate a miracle comeback. Fred Stamps certainly prefers Nichols throwing the ball, so he can't be pleased with the pathetic decision to start and stick with Joseph.

In short, any player of importance has no reason to like the way Reed has managed this team.

On the topic of Joseph taking a coaching position here, no thanks. I do not want any former QBs on the staff now, or ever. Any ex-QB involved in designing or calling an offense has shown no interest in running the ball enough to be successful. They invariably massively overrate the importance of their own position to the detriment of the team.

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11-15-2012, 07:38 AM
  #636
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I hate what Reed has done with this football team and I hate it even more that he holds himself in such high regard that he cannot admit that he was flatout wrong and unprepeared for a playoff game.

There is such a thing as being confident but it borders on arrogance with him. I wish I could comment more on the game but from everything I've read the players were disappointed in the starting QB, Charles got shafted and the fact that there was no pressure on a QB that hates being moved out of the pocket is disgraceful. Reed coached RR and should have known his tendancies.

When you get the **** kicked out of you in a game, there is nothing to say other than, "We were unprepared and we brutal."

All this crap about being proud has worn thin with me. That was not an Eskimo team on the field on Sunday and if anyone, including Reed, thinks it was, we are in a boatload of trouble.

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11-15-2012, 07:57 AM
  #637
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Originally Posted by AJGass4 View Post
I hate what Reed has done with this football team and I hate it even more that he holds himself in such high regard that he cannot admit that he was flatout wrong and unprepeared for a playoff game.

There is such a thing as being confident but it borders on arrogance with him. I wish I could comment more on the game but from everything I've read the players were disappointed in the starting QB, Charles got shafted and the fact that there was no pressure on a QB that hates being moved out of the pocket is disgraceful. Reed coached RR and should have known his tendancies.

When you get the **** kicked out of you in a game, there is nothing to say other than, "We were unprepared and we brutal."

All this crap about being proud has worn thin with me. That was not an Eskimo team on the field on Sunday and if anyone, including Reed, thinks it was, we are in a boatload of trouble.
I have the game recorded on PVR and Charles was clearly fuming. After ripping a big gainer on one play he comes back to the huddle obviously gesturing for the club to use him. He's incensed at not getting the ball. Not the first time this has occurred. No doubt Stamps had similar misgivings. National TV half a dozen times asking what happened to Charles. Injured? no. Stupidity at work? yes.

I really haven't met many CFL players that are happy to play on a club without a clue how to develop or implement an effective game plan or use its go to players properly. Or that don't note theres no kicker on the field in a punting situation. Or that the Center can't snap, can't block, and is playing no contact rules. Or that several times this year RB's have gone wrongside to receive the handoff. Or that our line coverage is so bad that the opposition blitzes clean in an instant, and other pressure is still there to intercept a shovel pass. If the offensive line was invisible that would be hard enough to do.

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11-15-2012, 08:07 AM
  #638
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I heard Reed on the radio this morning and just had to shake my head as I listened to him. Here's a summation "I did nothing wrong, all my decisions were perfect and I'd make all of them again without hesitation. And Kerry wasn't at fault for anything either, not even the shovel pass int."

This franchise is in serious trouble for next season.
I agree. It is only my opinion, of course, but I think moneyguy is dead wrong when he states Reed is a players coach and everyone loves him. If that is the opinion of team management, then the esks are doomed.
Replacement is right, the players body language and actions on the field speak more loudly than any player comments.

I think it is extremely naive to believe what an employee says about their boss is always what they believe. When a player is in a position where Reed can affect his career, of course he's not going to say anything negative.
I think all of you in real life have seen what happens when someone makes even one negative comment about the boss and the boss finds out. the esks are no different.

I liked Kavis Reed and when he was hired, I thought it was great. But this year, to me he's showing his true colours (for just one example, all his post game comments since Sunday) and his coaching skill level, and it scares me that he might be a part of the team next year.

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11-15-2012, 08:16 AM
  #639
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I think alot of us were thrilled when Reed was hired Gord, I know I was. But as time has gone by, I am floored with the comments he comes out with.

If he's trying to save face, I understand that. But come on! The proof of how bad this football team is was there for all to see on Sunday. I am not sure how a guy that preaches honesty can come out with the comments he has made.

He single handedly threw this game in the gutter and when you fail to admit it, it just makes him look like a hypocrite. He's always taling about accountability and he has accepted none.

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11-15-2012, 08:48 AM
  #640
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Its a clear case of actions speaking louder than words. The actions of nearly every player on the field Sunday spoke that they're not exactly invested in saving any coaches. Who gives a crap about words? The performance just isn't there for this coaching staff. The entire team quit in the second quarter at some point. Which is disgusting and inexcusable in any playoff game. This is not playing for the coach. The players can say whatever they want. For sure I'll believe what I actually saw. A team with a very fragile confidence, that didn't believe in a gameplan, didn't get behind and stick with a gameplan, and wasn't focused enough or didn't care enough to execute a game plan. The team played one quarter of Football. Then layed down.

If this was boxing I'd say the fix was in and the players couldn't wait to hit the canvas, collect a payday, and get the hell out of dodge as quick as possible. If you think this team looked like a club playing for the coach and that earnestly wanted to continue on I don't know what you were watching.
Pretty much, rarely do players come out and say negative things about the team, especially considering they could very well have to play under Reed again next year.

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11-15-2012, 09:05 AM
  #641
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I think alot of us were thrilled when Reed was hired Gord, I know I was. But as time has gone by, I am floored with the comments he comes out with.

If he's trying to save face, I understand that. But come on! The proof of how bad this football team is was there for all to see on Sunday. I am not sure how a guy that preaches honesty can come out with the comments he has made.

He single handedly threw this game in the gutter and when you fail to admit it, it just makes him look like a hypocrite. He's always taling about accountability and he has accepted none.
Some of his comments I can accept. He's always sticking up for the team and his coaching staff and doesnt want to throw anybody under the bus, he doesnt want to air the teams dirty laundry in public. I'm fine with it if that's all it is but the impression he is giving of is that he doesnt even see the problems this team has I mean he's still saying nobody has written off Steven Jyles yet. Jyles! If it's all just a face for the public it's ok but if there's nothing going on behind that face then the Esks are in serious trouble. I really liked what Kavis was doing last season but this year I cant remember a game where it didnt seem like he was being out coached. Where our game plan was working from the start and other teams had to adapt to try and shut it down or where we were able to adapt to what other teams were doing and shut them down.

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11-15-2012, 09:34 AM
  #642
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Some of his comments I can accept. He's always sticking up for the team and his coaching staff and doesnt want to throw anybody under the bus, he doesnt want to air the teams dirty laundry in public. I'm fine with it if that's all it is but the impression he is giving of is that he doesnt even see the problems this team has I mean he's still saying nobody has written off Steven Jyles yet. Jyles! If it's all just a face for the public it's ok but if there's nothing going on behind that face then the Esks are in serious trouble. I really liked what Kavis was doing last season but this year I cant remember a game where it didnt seem like he was being out coached. Where our game plan was working from the start and other teams had to adapt to try and shut it down or where we were able to adapt to what other teams were doing and shut them down.
Just as an aside Reeds presentation has been different in many ways. It seems as if he's suffering from something.

His perpetual squinting, eye twitching, grimacing, facial contortions, is looking like he is in pain and suggests possible stress related condition, migraines, who knows. Doesn't seem like everything is currently going great for him. Last year all I noted was some anger, some reaction, some venting. This year its like he's a black version of Herbert Lom(RIP) from the Pink Panther movies..

IATL could be using kavis Reed facial expressions for all his gifs. Somethings going on there..

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11-15-2012, 10:35 AM
  #643
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I no longer get this take at all.

As I mentioned earlier Kavis is picking his favorites like Joseph not because Joseph is loyal to the org but that he's loyal to Kavis Reed. A coach that is struggling with the dressingroom will ride with what got him there, go with his guys.
Doesn't really matter what their on field performance is like as long as they sing the right song and dance. Kyle Koch for instance is on this football team for no other reason than he says all the right things.

We've seen this act before here when a coach is on the outs desperately riding his donkeys.

You'll remember earlier in the year Kavis had to get Gizmo to talk to Burnett about returns because he wasn't communicating his message adequately. Or because Kavis threw one of his hardest working players under the bus. One of the few that even showed up on Sunday. But Burnett isn't in the good books because he's not immediately amenable to confusing direction.

Or that the entire club seems immune to whatever coaching goes on between games. To wit not knowing who is what unit, not knowing when to be on the field. not knowing assignments. An RB not knowing where to lineup. This team has been loaded with confusion all year which is pretty indicative that the players have tuned the coaching staff out.

Most coaches that choose to ride the wrong horses during the season in a desperate effort to save their jobs, are unemployed by the end of it. In the Eskimos organization, they get extended or considered for promotion.

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11-15-2012, 10:39 AM
  #644
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Players like who, Joseph?

I can't imagine Charles could be a fan of Kavis' after being inexplicably benched after ramming the ball down Toronto's throat on Sunday. I doubt Matt Nichols is all that fond of the guy who waits until the game is already lost to throw him in there to orchestrate a miracle comeback. Fred Stamps certainly prefers Nichols throwing the ball, so he can't be pleased with the pathetic decision to start and stick with Joseph.

In short, any player of importance has no reason to like the way Reed has managed this team.

On the topic of Joseph taking a coaching position here, no thanks. I do not want any former QBs on the staff now, or ever. Any ex-QB involved in designing or calling an offense has shown no interest in running the ball enough to be successful. They invariably massively overrate the importance of their own position to the detriment of the team.

I think you might be giving Joseph too much credit for helping to design the game plan this year. Highly unlikely. He was a paid employee, told to do what he did, nothing more. If they said pass the ball, he passed the ball. Matter of fact, I'd say it was very unlikely that any of the players on either side of the ball designed game plans. Hard to beleive Munoz or Sherritt called blitzes whenever they chose. I don't like the fact Joseph was playing the amount that he did anymore than you do, but I'm not going to trash him because Reed chose to put him in. I'll trash him for bad play, being too old, and decision making during play, but that's it.

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11-15-2012, 10:51 AM
  #645
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Just as an aside Reeds presentation has been different in many ways. It seems as if he's suffering from something.

His perpetual squinting, eye twitching, grimacing, facial contortions, is looking like he is in pain and suggests possible stress related condition, migraines, who knows. Doesn't seem like everything is currently going great for him. Last year all I noted was some anger, some reaction, some venting. This year its like he's a black version of Herbert Lom(RIP) from the Pink Panther movies..

IATL could be using kavis Reed facial expressions for all his gifs. Somethings going on there..
LMAO. I've noticed that too, but when the team is as badly mismanaged as this one, maybe you or I would feel and act that way too. He looks like he's on the brink of snapping or near a mental breakdown. Some of the ridiculous things he's been saying now after the fact certainly seem to indicate the amount of stress he's under.

All this talk of the players chosing Edmonton because of dressing rooms or practice facilities is really naive and silly. Players want to win. They want and need organization and accountability. The ones that don't, you don't want. I agree that guys are going to say nice things about Reed since there appears to be a good chance he'll be running the ship going forward. But having a guy as a coach that will make you feel better after each loss and keep your spirits up, will start to wear rather thin once the losses and incompetence and the years start to add up.

There's a ton of documented stories of nice guys that were coaches in the CFL, NHL, whatever, that were loved by players, that simply had no clue how to run a team, and it took management quite a while to finally figure this out. There are very few people out there like Hugh Campbell, for instance, who was likelable by all, but also knew when to be a hard ass behind the scenes, but was extremely efficient and prepared and had the talent of hiring great people around him.


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11-15-2012, 02:59 PM
  #646
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Starting Joseph wasn't the problem. he led an excellent 100 yd drive down field for the first TD on the opening drive. But as soon as he stalled, and the Esks momentum stalled, it was time to pull Joseph. If merely for it was time to give the team a lift at the right moment, say after the Boyd fumble, or after the Joseph shovel pass. That could have given a momentum boost and was one of the stated advantages in having Nichols come off as a reliever. if things aren't going right its a boost to the squad. Reed screwed it, as he often does.
I get the part about being satisfied with the opening drive. The team hasn't scored a TD on the opening drive all season. That speaks volumes about the quality of this offence but I digress.

In spite of that early success Reed started the wrong player IMO. Maybe Nichols doesn't score that early TD but I think the team would have been better served over the course of the game by starting Nichols.

That said (as a 2nd possibility) I would have been fine with your suggestion that Joseph gets pulled in the 1st quarter as well.


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Ray executed it excellently, and quickly, and targets were available. The Argos played a simple, but effective offense, and executed it flawlessly at times. But we gave them no wrinkles to worry about. None. Kudos to players like Burnett that at least tried to instill some worry.
I agree with this. Some questions need to be asked regarding the coaching on both sides of the ball.

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We're all pissed off right now. The game has me out of sorts, bad mood, grumble grumble, just not the best time to ruffle feathers. I love the Eskimos, cheer resolutely for the club, so of course I'm upset at what unfolded today. More due to the coaching staff of this club not even giving us a chance to win.

Benefit of doubt is gone, totally. The one think I thought the club might be holding back on some wrinkles, different schemes, and that we'd get a better all round performance for instance out of the defensive and offensive lines.

The club sucked today, all round. Soon as things went bad, and soon as the interception was overturned, and Argos got the first TD due to that, the Esks were losing some composure. It was a delicate composure. They needed some things to go well early and ride that. We almost had that going.

That said a team with this little amount of commitment in adversity doesn't deserve more than it got.
This club has lacked the talent at important positions (not just QB) all season. The coaching deficiencies set the team back even further.

If Kavis Reed is around for 1 more season then it will be clear that upper Management really doesn't have a clue about the ingredients necessary to build a winner. The organizational rot will be evident for all to see.
The board needs to start with Len Roades and then hire a GM that has some clarity regarding the other weak links...ie Crandell and Reed.
That would be a good start to next season IMO.

I am willing to take bets that none of that happens.

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11-15-2012, 03:03 PM
  #647
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We just fired our incompetent GM, and did it before a playoff game. Our CEO is an idiot that knows nothing about football. We traded away our starting quarterback for magic beans. The rest of our quarterbacks are absolute shyte, save for a young guy that will have to come back from a horrific injury, and has the grand total of about 2 games under his belt due to incompetence by the coaches.Our coaching staff is a disaster, not a clue how to manage a game or personnel, or prepare a team. We have no 1st or 4th round picks in the upcoming draft after an abysmal season. We have 14 unrestricted free agents, 9 of them starters on the defence, of which we'll surely lose a few when free agency hits. I'm open to suggestions as to how the situation can possibly be worse.
This pretty much sums up my feeling as well. All of this post DM mess points to the CEO.

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11-15-2012, 06:06 PM
  #648
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Yeah I think Stoneman outlines a fairly accurate picture of where the Eskimos are at.

Thinking on timeline for a bit, CFL free agency starts in early Feb does it not?

That means whoever you have as GM, you have to install pretty quickly after the season has ended (I doubt we'll try take anything away from the Grey cup).

Grey cup is scheduled for November 25th. So assuming we do a (hopefully) competent search for a GM, I guessing we hire on around early Dec?

Gives the new GM 2(ish) months to (hopefully) fire Reed, conduct a extensive HC search and hire a HC with new staff, resign the 13 or so starters we have up for free agency if we plan to keep them and make any changes needed to the management side of the ball (new head scout for example if Hervey is hired).

I'm really warming up to Hervey as GM btw. Just read he stepped in and got Chambers signed when contract talks stalled. So it's not like he has no experience in the management side of things. I'd hope that we got someone to be a senior advisor of some sort for him though.

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11-15-2012, 06:07 PM
  #649
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Originally Posted by Stoneman89 View Post
I think you might be giving Joseph too much credit for helping to design the game plan this year. Highly unlikely. He was a paid employee, told to do what he did, nothing more. If they said pass the ball, he passed the ball. Matter of fact, I'd say it was very unlikely that any of the players on either side of the ball designed game plans. Hard to beleive Munoz or Sherritt called blitzes whenever they chose. I don't like the fact Joseph was playing the amount that he did anymore than you do, but I'm not going to trash him because Reed chose to put him in. I'll trash him for bad play, being too old, and decision making during play, but that's it.
I wasn't suggesting Joseph had a hand in running the offense this year. I'm quite certain he didn't. I mean I don't want any former QBs running our offense going forward. It's becoming increasingly clear to me that ex-QBs make poor coaches/coordinators in general. They want to win by passing, and no other way. Most of the time when a team doesn't run the ball enough, a retired QB is either OC or head coach.

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11-15-2012, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
I wasn't suggesting Joseph had a hand in running the offense this year. I'm quite certain he didn't. I mean I don't want any former QBs running our offense going forward. It's becoming increasingly clear to me that ex-QBs make poor coaches/coordinators in general. They want to win by passing, and no other way. Most of the time when a team doesn't run the ball enough, a retired QB is either OC or head coach.

At this point in time, I don't have a preference what position the guy played as long as he can figure out how to count to 12.

BTW, as far as former QB's in the OC position are concerned, Dave Dickenson in Calgary seems to be doing okay. Scott Milanovich runs the Toronto offence. Marcus Brady, the OC of the Als is a former QB, and they have a nicely balanced offence.


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