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Off-season Madness the 4th: and here we wait in trade-completion limbo

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11-15-2012, 08:36 PM
  #301
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Originally Posted by RayzorIsDull View Post
Like it or not writers put a lot of stock into an MVP candidate getting his team to the playoffs. It is now 20 of the last 21 MVP's that have helped his team into the playoffs.
Writers put stock into a lot of stupid things, it doesn't make this decision or others like it any more defensible.

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To say nobody else deserved to be in the conversation and short sighted and silly.
No, it is an objective fact that I defended with objective evidence. Mike Trout was a significantly more valuable player than Miguel Cabrera in 2012, and lead his club to a better record in a harder division to boot. These are facts, they are not silly or short sighted because you do not grasp them.

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We aren't talking about a vote that went down the wire, Cabrera comfortably defeated Trout. The worst part about these new age stats is to hear a guy like Brian Kenny on MLB Network all but say Miguel Cabrera is a rally killer sighting all the DP's he hit into. Yes the best hitter in MLB is a rally killer. The sabremetric people try too hard to discredit good players that don't fit into their metrics.
Are you sure that Brian Kenny didn't just reiterate that Miguel Cabrera hit into more DP than anyone else in the AL in 2012, a number of which were rally killers? This is a fact, and not at all the same as saying that Miguel Cabrera is a rally killer.


Last edited by Scion: 11-15-2012 at 08:42 PM.
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11-15-2012, 08:38 PM
  #302
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No single player in the history of baseball has taken their team to the playoffs by themselves.
When was the last time anybody has won the Triple Crown? What Cabrera did may never be matched again.

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11-15-2012, 08:40 PM
  #303
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He might not report to the Jays because of the pitbull situation.
WTF..weak sauce. Where did you hear this? I know he has a pit bull and it's a bit of a drag with the laws here, but people sneak them in all the time.

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11-15-2012, 08:41 PM
  #304
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They can. If they feel it is very lopsided, they would reject it.
They know the deal isn't lopsided though, so what other reasons do they have to reject it?

None whatsoever. If it gets rejected, there will be even more backfire than before.

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11-15-2012, 08:41 PM
  #305
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Yeah but...

I'm content with how far out in left field you are on this one.
Ignorance is bliss, and you sure seem happy.

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11-15-2012, 08:42 PM
  #306
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When was the last time anybody has won the Triple Crown? What Cabrera did may never be matched again.
Hitting 4 home runs is a similarly infrequent event, should Josh Hamilton have been CO-MVP?

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11-15-2012, 08:44 PM
  #307
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WTF..weak sauce. Where did you hear this? I know he has a pit bull and it's a bit of a drag with the laws here, but people sneak them in all the time.
He is speculating, no one has reported that Mark Buehrle will not report to the Blue Jays, and I highly doubt that anyone will.

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11-15-2012, 08:47 PM
  #308
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They can. If they feel it is very lopsided, they would reject it.
Good thing we gave up some great prospects so there's no reason for them to kill the deal.

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11-15-2012, 08:48 PM
  #309
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Yes, but that does play a big part in the voting. And like you said, no one was near Trout, so you'd think he could at least get his team into the PO's.
But if you accept that a single player can't get his team into the playoffs, how can you say that Trout should've "at least gotten his team into the PO's"?

Mike Trout does not control how well the Rangers or A's played any more than Miguel Cabrera caused the White Sox to implode the way they did.

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Yeah but...



I'm content with how far out in left field you are on this one.
Right, because the BBWAA's voting practices and personal biases are an accurate representation of the reality of how Cabrera and Trout played. The writers were largely entranced by the fact that Cabrera won teh triple crown, or in some cases this idea that Trout is "too young" to deserve to start wining awards yet. Many even admit to that fact.

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11-15-2012, 08:48 PM
  #310
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WTF..weak sauce. Where did you hear this? I know he has a pit bull and it's a bit of a drag with the laws here, but people sneak them in all the time.
Nobody has said that. He's just speculating based on the fact that Buerhle has a pitbull. I highly, highly doubt he wouldn't report for this reason. That would just be stupid.

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11-15-2012, 08:48 PM
  #311
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Writers put stock into a lot of stupid things, it doesn't make this decision or others like it any more defensible.



No, it is an objective fact that I defended with objective evidence. Mike Trout was a significantly more valuable player than Miguel Cabrera in 2012, and lead his club to a better record in a harder division to boot. These are facts, they are not silly or short sighted because you do not grasp them.



Are you sure that Brian Kenny didn't just reiterate that Miguel Cabrera hit into more DP than anyone else in the AL in 2012, a number of which were rally killers? This is a fact, and not at all the same as saying that Miguel Cabrera is a rally killer.

I suggest resisting from commenting on subjects that you do not understand, it reflects poorly on you when you do.
Cabrera led the majors in DP's just as he led the AL in average, HR's and RBI's. No Brian Kenny said Miguel Cabrera was a rally killer. I suggest you get off your high horse I am still surprised you're pounding this drum as hard as you are since the sabremetric community took a huge hit today. Now that Cabrera has won people are trying to knock him down some more. You can't tout Trout at all you just have to criticize the other candidate sounds a lot like a political race to me.

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11-15-2012, 08:51 PM
  #312
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Hitting 4 home runs is a similarly infrequent event, should Josh Hamilton have been CO-MVP?
Come on, that's a horrible counter-argument.

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11-15-2012, 08:55 PM
  #313
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Blue Jays Looking For Another Starting Pitcher
By Mark Polishuk [November 15 at 7:52pm CST]
Even after adding Josh Johnson and Mark Buehrle in Tuesday's massive trade with the Marlins, the Blue Jays "still need -- and want -- one more starter," reports FOX Sports' Ken Rosenthal (Twitter link). Assuming the trade with Miami is finalized in its current form, the Jays' rotation currently stands as Brandon Morrow, Johnson, Buehrle, Ricky Romero and J.A. Happ.

The Jays' top priority this offseason was finding starting pitching, and Toronto has been connected to several of the top pitchers on the market as well bounce-back candidates like Scott Baker (who has already signed with the Cubs). Given the number of injuries suffered by Jays starters in 2012, it's no surprise that the club wants as much depth as possible for next year's rotation. The Blue Jays have already greatly increased payroll so they could continue this willingness to spend by chasing a Zack Greinke or Anibal Sanchez, but it's also possible that the Jays have already done their major winter spending and will now look for depth amongst lower-priced free agent pitching options.

Matt Sosnick, Johnson's agent, raised the possibility during a recent radio interview that the Jays could deal Johnson or another of the newly-acquired players from the Marlins. Rosenthal doesn't believe that the big right-hander will be leaving Toronto anytime soon: "Anything is possible, but team did not get Johnson to flip him." Of the players in the deal, John Buck seems like the most obvious trade candidate given the Jays' depth at catcher, though Buck has much less trade value than a younger backstop like J.P. Arencibia.


nothing we dont know
i'm sure they'd prefer to trade buck - but JPA has more value fer sure
and isnt JJ a lefthander ?

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11-15-2012, 08:55 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by Cool Beans Man View Post
Come on, that's a horrible counter-argument.
It really is. A one-game event vs a full season of dominance....

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11-15-2012, 08:57 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by RayzorIsDull View Post
Cabrera led the majors in DP's just as he led the AL in average, HR's and RBI's.
Mike Trout lead the AL in defence from CF, base-running, WAR, and was neck and neck with Cabrera offensively according to: wOBA/wRC+/OBP, and arguably even a little bit better if you take position scarcity into account, and/or subscribe to RE24.

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Originally Posted by RayzorIsDull View Post
No Brian Kenny said Miguel Cabrera was a rally killer. I suggest you get off your high horse I am still surprised you're pounding this drum as hard as you are since the sabremetric community took a huge hit today. Now that Cabrera has won people are trying to knock him down some more. You can't tout Trout at all you just have to criticize the other candidate sounds a lot like a political race to me.
For the sake of discussion let's assume that Brian Kenny said what you claim, what does that have to do with the sabremetric community?

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11-15-2012, 08:59 PM
  #316
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Come on, that's a horrible counter-argument.
Why? The reason's being presented for the importance of the triple crown are exactly the same, that it is a rare and infrequent event.

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11-15-2012, 09:02 PM
  #317
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“They’re the laughing stock of baseball,’’ the agent continued. “Miami is now baseball’s Siberia.’’

MLB commisioner Bud Selig plans to take close look at Miami Marlins trade
Bud Selig intends to have a complete look at the Marlins’ blockbuster deal, although sources said it is highly unlikely to be overturned.


http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/11/1...#storylink=cpy

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11-15-2012, 09:04 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by ForzaZuffa View Post
It really is. A one-game event vs a full season of dominance....
You are undertaking a different premise. The premise of the argument that I responded to was that the Triple Crown is a worthwhile accomplishment because it is a rare-feat. Using that same logic it can be argued that a four home run game is a similarly worthy feat, for the simple fact that it occurs just as infrequently as the Triple Crown.

If you want to debate full season dominance, look no further than Trout's dominance with respect to UZR/DRS, BSR and wRC+.

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11-15-2012, 09:07 PM
  #319
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The entire foundation of the Triple-Crown is flawed, it fundamentally places higher importance to: AVG, RBI and HR than any other offensive stat, which we know to be objectively false.

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11-15-2012, 09:07 PM
  #320
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Why? The reason's being presented for the importance of the triple crown are exactly the same, that it is a rare and infrequent event.
Oh, I wasn't aware that a Triple Crown could be won in one game....if a 4 homer game analogy is your only viable comeback, you should probably give up at this point, and try again another day...

EDIT: And I would have leaned towards Trout for MVP myself, but your analogy is horrible and completely undermines your position. Someone could equally point to Trout going 0 for 4 with 3 K's and several RISP's left in one game as a reason for him not being deserving of the MVP.


Last edited by kb: 11-15-2012 at 09:16 PM.
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11-15-2012, 09:07 PM
  #321
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Blue Jays Looking For Another Starting Pitcher
By Mark Polishuk [November 15 at 7:52pm CST]
Even after adding Josh Johnson and Mark Buehrle in Tuesday's massive trade with the Marlins, the Blue Jays "still need -- and want -- one more starter," reports FOX Sports' Ken Rosenthal (Twitter link). Assuming the trade with Miami is finalized in its current form, the Jays' rotation currently stands as Brandon Morrow, Johnson, Buehrle, Ricky Romero and J.A. Happ.

The Jays' top priority this offseason was finding starting pitching, and Toronto has been connected to several of the top pitchers on the market as well bounce-back candidates like Scott Baker (who has already signed with the Cubs). Given the number of injuries suffered by Jays starters in 2012, it's no surprise that the club wants as much depth as possible for next year's rotation. The Blue Jays have already greatly increased payroll so they could continue this willingness to spend by chasing a Zack Greinke or Anibal Sanchez, but it's also possible that the Jays have already done their major winter spending and will now look for depth amongst lower-priced free agent pitching options.

Matt Sosnick, Johnson's agent, raised the possibility during a recent radio interview that the Jays could deal Johnson or another of the newly-acquired players from the Marlins. Rosenthal doesn't believe that the big right-hander will be leaving Toronto anytime soon: "Anything is possible, but team did not get Johnson to flip him." Of the players in the deal, John Buck seems like the most obvious trade candidate given the Jays' depth at catcher, though Buck has much less trade value than a younger backstop like J.P. Arencibia.


nothing we dont know
i'm sure they'd prefer to trade buck - but JPA has more value fer sure
and isnt JJ a lefthander ?


What about getting Marcum. Morrow, Buehrle, Johnson, Romero, Marcum, Happ. Absolutely ridiculous rotation.

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11-15-2012, 09:08 PM
  #322
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I give Trout the nod because he was a more complete player than Miguel Cabrera THIS SEASON, and that's not even close. How many runs did Trout save in CF? My guess is quite a few more than Cabrera did by playing a pretty weak 3B. Both are TREMENDOUS players, Cabrera might have one of the nicest strokes in all of baseaball...but when you add in the steals, and the defense, I don't see how Mike Trout doesn't deserve the award.

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11-15-2012, 09:09 PM
  #323
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Oh, I wasn't aware that a Triple Crown could be won in one game....if a 4 homer game analogy is your only viable comeback, you should probably give up at this point, and come back another day...
You are also no doubt unaware that: batting average, runs batted in and home runs are not the three most important offensive statistics with respect to evaluating offensive production.

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11-15-2012, 09:09 PM
  #324
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Quote:
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The entire foundation of the Triple-Crown is flawed, it fundamentally places higher importance to: AVG, RBI and HR than any other offensive stat, which we know to be objectively false.
It is still a MASSIVE achievement, don't forget.

How often does the leading home run getter also lead the league in average? Miguel is such an elite pure hitter, he combines superior contact, plate discipline, and power. He is a tremendous player.

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11-15-2012, 09:10 PM
  #325
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Ignorance is bliss, and you sure seem happy.
Yes, everyone is ignorant, all the writers are ignorant, nobody is right but you.


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