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Lockout thread #2: mediation done - no progress

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:16 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by SK13 View Post
It's a lot more than 5-6 teams "bleeding money". Some may not be bleeding to death, but an owners win here means profit vs loss.
My problem with the owners contention that they are losing money is that a lot of them don't really seem to treat it like a business. With they way they throw money at players it seems to me that they are concerned with winning first and business second. I'm pretty sure most owners (if they wanted to make money) would do a lot better playing the stock market.

The truth is that the owners are in this due to their passion for the game (or maybe their own egos) but they seem to have forgotten that passion in these negotiations. I do not get a sense from them that they care about the game of hockey at all in the last few months. Where did that passion go?


Answer: Gary Bettman sucked it up into his vortex of apathy.

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11-15-2012, 02:43 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Copperhead View Post
My problem with the owners contention that they are losing money is that a lot of them don't really seem to treat it like a business. With they way they throw money at players it seems to me that they are concerned with winning first and business second. I'm pretty sure most owners (if they wanted to make money) would do a lot better playing the stock market.

The truth is that the owners are in this due to their passion for the game (or maybe their own egos) but they seem to have forgotten that passion in these negotiations. I do not get a sense from them that they care about the game of hockey at all in the last few months. Where did that passion go?


Answer: Gary Bettman sucked it up into his vortex of apathy.
Either way you look at it then, the owners hold the high cards. It was their money that bought the team and the expences that go with it. The top 20% of the players(the elite) are the voices that are screwing it up for the other 80%. Owners can play games all day long. Players not so much.

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Old
11-15-2012, 03:46 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Njoy Oilers View Post
Either way you look at it then, the owners hold the high cards. It was their money that bought the team and the expences that go with it. The top 20% of the players(the elite) are the voices that are screwing it up for the other 80%. Owners can play games all day long. Players not so much.
Yah - I agree. I can see the argument the players are making that the NHL aren't compromising enough, and aren't being fair in their demands. Well - life isn't fair sometimes, and negotiating isn't always about compromise and striking a deal both sides are happy with. It's often about who has the most leverage, and in this case, the owners have the leverage.

It might suck to be a player, but it seems to be the reality, and it's not going to change anytime soon.

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Old
11-15-2012, 05:24 PM
  #129
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The oilers fan need to do one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX5D6sKCkOU


Last edited by Oilbleeder: 11-15-2012 at 07:54 PM.
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Old
11-15-2012, 05:25 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Copperhead View Post
My problem with the owners contention that they are losing money is that a lot of them don't really seem to treat it like a business. With they way they throw money at players it seems to me that they are concerned with winning first and business second. I'm pretty sure most owners (if they wanted to make money) would do a lot better playing the stock market.

The truth is that the owners are in this due to their passion for the game (or maybe their own egos) but they seem to have forgotten that passion in these negotiations. I do not get a sense from them that they care about the game of hockey at all in the last few months. Where did that passion go?


Answer: Gary Bettman sucked it up into his vortex of apathy.
Yes, the owners have a passion for the game, thats why they do it. Still and all at the end of a CBA, thats the opportunity for the owners to address the business side of NHL and to make sure that it is running in such a way as to allow it to continue into the future as a viable enterprise.

This is the whole point of the lockout and the main thing the players refuse to understand.

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Old
11-15-2012, 05:30 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by oil slick View Post
Yah - I agree. I can see the argument the players are making that the NHL aren't compromising enough, and aren't being fair in their demands. Well - life isn't fair sometimes, and negotiating isn't always about compromise and striking a deal both sides are happy with. It's often about who has the most leverage, and in this case, the owners have the leverage.

It might suck to be a player, but it seems to be the reality, and it's not going to change anytime soon.
I agree 100% with this. I agree that most players feel screwed or ripped off. The difference is that the owners hold the money and the leverage in the negotiations.

Players got some concessions, they might be able to squeeze a few more $$$ out of the owners, but whatever they have on the table now is most likely the best they will get. Might as well take it and start getting paycheques imo.

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Old
11-15-2012, 07:46 PM
  #132
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Quote:
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As @KatieStrangESPN first reported, Bettman and Fehr talked in last 36 hours to have a recess in the talks, of up to 2 weeks. #tickticktick


So much for urgency.

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Old
11-15-2012, 08:06 PM
  #133
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More European signings incoming.

Petry needs to find a job somewhere.

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Old
11-15-2012, 08:10 PM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Copperhead View Post
My problem with the owners contention that they are losing money is that a lot of them don't really seem to treat it like a business. With they way they throw money at players it seems to me that they are concerned with winning first and business second. I'm pretty sure most owners (if they wanted to make money) would do a lot better playing the stock market.

The truth is that the owners are in this due to their passion for the game (or maybe their own egos) but they seem to have forgotten that passion in these negotiations. I do not get a sense from them that they care about the game of hockey at all in the last few months. Where did that passion go?


Answer: Gary Bettman sucked it up into his vortex of apathy.
Unfortunately, when you're one of those owners losing up to 20 million dollars/year, it kind of sucks the passion right out of it.

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Old
11-15-2012, 08:12 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by The Last Dynasty View Post
meh, always darkest before dawn

more posturing IMO
Wish I could believe that 100 %, but 2004 taught me differently.

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Old
11-15-2012, 08:31 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Stoneman89 View Post
Unfortunately, when you're one of those owners losing up to 20 million dollars/year, it kind of sucks the passion right out of it.
NHL teams are a business. Passion shouldn't be an excuse to run your business poorly. If you can't make money with your business, you should get out of way and let someone else try. Or fold up the business.

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Old
11-15-2012, 09:05 PM
  #137
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NHL teams are a business. Passion shouldn't be an excuse to run your business poorly. If you can't make money with your business, you should get out of way and let someone else try. Or fold up the business.
So owners who are losing money are running their businesses poorly?
Sorry, I dont think so.It aint near that simple.


Last edited by Billybaroo*: 11-15-2012 at 09:31 PM.
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Old
11-15-2012, 09:27 PM
  #138
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@DarrenDreger: Series of Daly quotes on league initiated hiatus: "We have made repeated moves in the Players' direction with absolutely no reciprocation."

@DarrenDreger: Daly: "unfortunately, we have determined we are involved with Union leadership that has no genuine interest in reaching an agreement."

@DarrenDreger: Daly: "Regardless of what we propose or how we suggest to compromise the answer is "no," At some pt you have to say "enough is enough".

@reporterchris: Had the NHL started Dec. 1, it would most likely have been with a 68-game season. So we're probably looking at less than that now.

Well that sucks so it looks like there s no way a deal is done by dec 1 so if this season is not cancelled and a deal gets done at some point we are looking at ~50game season i think obviously depending on when a deal gets done
This 2 week break thing is stupid, i get the pa' is being hard to deal with and nobody likes them right now but that doesnt mean you take a pointless 2 week break the league and pa' should be continueing to negotiate it sounds like the league just got tired of dealing with the pa' so they decided a break would somehow help the process
Daly says regardless of what we propose the answer is no well the answer is supposed to be no thats where the negotiating and bargaining part comes in
I've been very pissed with the pa' lately but this move by the league really doesnt make them look any better

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Old
11-15-2012, 09:32 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Billybaroo View Post
So owners who are losing money are running there businesses poorly?
Sorry, I dont think so.It aint near that simple.
Short answer: yes.

Long answer: How else do you explain being unable to balance your books in a league that made 3+ Billion in revenue?

I don't know, this doesn't seem like rocket science. Run your business in an area where people are genuinely interested in your product.

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Old
11-15-2012, 09:38 PM
  #140
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The players get paid in 2 week intervals right? If so I doubt that the 2 week proposal by Bettman was a mistake, it was a shot at Fehr by having the guys that he's representing miss another check because they are tired with his BS.

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Old
11-15-2012, 09:41 PM
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tempest2i View Post
Short answer: yes.

Long answer: How else do you explain being unable to balance your books in a league that made 3+ Billion in revenue?

I don't know, this doesn't seem like rocket science. Run your business in an area where people are genuinely interested in your product.
So fold up 10 teams and lose 230 NHLPA jobs then. I'm sure the union would be all for that. Owners are entitled to make a profit, the players entire contracts are profits sans taxes no matter if their owner makes $100 million or loses $100 million.

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11-15-2012, 10:08 PM
  #142
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Just like the players aren't necessarily unified, neither are the owners.

It's been mentioned (although not for a while) that some owners, like Dolan, hate the lockout and want the season on - probably partially because he's got a shot at winning with the Rangers.

But the core group of guys like Snider and Jeremy Jacobs are in tight with Bettman and they'll back his play to the end.

It would be nice to know how the owners are discussing things like max contracts and UFA status, etc, because teams like Philly and NYR are always going to throw silly money.

You can't just say "owners that lose money are bad businessmen". They are dealing with guaranteed contracts and a salary cap floor they need to reach, regardless of their own team attendance, revenue, etc.

When you get GMs like Tallon driving dump trucks of money on mediocre players just to reach the cap floor, it seems like a broken model to me.

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11-15-2012, 10:14 PM
  #143
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This two week break and obvious frustration with the nhlpa only reinforces the idea that fehr has absolutely no intention of reaching an agreement. I don't agree with the strategy, but it's pretty clear that this is indeed the strategy he has chosen. The last offer where the nhlpa wanted guaranteed raise THIS year was so comically ridiculous that it has appeared to drive the NHL over the edge, and rightly so.

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Old
11-15-2012, 10:14 PM
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dustrock View Post
Just like the players aren't necessarily unified, neither are the owners.

It's been mentioned (although not for a while) that some owners, like Dolan, hate the lockout and want the season on - probably partially because he's got a shot at winning with the Rangers.

But the core group of guys like Snider and Jeremy Jacobs are in tight with Bettman and they'll back his play to the end.

It would be nice to know how the owners are discussing things like max contracts and UFA status, etc, because teams like Philly and NYR are always going to throw silly money.

You can't just say "owners that lose money are bad businessmen". They are dealing with guaranteed contracts and a salary cap floor they need to reach, regardless of their own team attendance, revenue, etc.

When you get GMs like Tallon driving dump trucks of money on mediocre players just to reach the cap floor, it seems like a broken model to me.
Of course the owners aren't unified. The league is going to concede to spend a lot more in revenue sharing and artificially lower the cap - neither are positive occurences for the Rangers, Leafs, Flyers, et all.

What they are, however, is a group of studied and successful businessmen who know how this works. They have the advantage by simple fact that an inactive NHL hurts the players a lot more than it hurts the owners. A split PA will give far quicker than a split ownership. Problem is the PA's stubbornness.

Also like to point out that it's the "more mature" Steve Fehr and Bill Daly throwing rocks at each other through the media right now. I'd love to see how the Fehr's consider their latest proposal the "concession of a billion dollars" though. Right now the NHL's proposal only has the PA conceding a few hundred million over five years.

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11-15-2012, 10:17 PM
  #145
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This lockout has been the final straw for me, I think it's safe to say that I'm officially done with the NHL. I vow never to watch this joke of a league ever again.

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Old
11-15-2012, 10:23 PM
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 402 View Post
@DarrenDreger: Series of Daly quotes on league initiated hiatus: "We have made repeated moves in the Players' direction with absolutely no reciprocation."

@DarrenDreger: Daly: "unfortunately, we have determined we are involved with Union leadership that has no genuine interest in reaching an agreement."

@DarrenDreger: Daly: "Regardless of what we propose or how we suggest to compromise the answer is "no," At some pt you have to say "enough is enough".

@reporterchris: Had the NHL started Dec. 1, it would most likely have been with a 68-game season. So we're probably looking at less than that now.

Well that sucks so it looks like there s no way a deal is done by dec 1 so if this season is not cancelled and a deal gets done at some point we are looking at ~50game season i think obviously depending on when a deal gets done
This 2 week break thing is stupid, i get the pa' is being hard to deal with and nobody likes them right now but that doesnt mean you take a pointless 2 week break the league and pa' should be continueing to negotiate it sounds like the league just got tired of dealing with the pa' so they decided a break would somehow help the process
Daly says regardless of what we propose the answer is no well the answer is supposed to be no thats where the negotiating and bargaining part comes in
I've been very pissed with the pa' lately but this move by the league really doesnt make them look any better
The PA's response

Quote:
Mark Spector Sports ‏@SportsnetSpec

Steve Fehr: “Of course everyone on the players' side wants to reach an agreement. The players have offered the owners concessions worth....
Quote:
Mark Spector Sports ‏@SportsnetSpec

... a billion dollars. What exactly have the owners offered the players? We believe that it is more likely that we will make progress..."
Quote:
Mark Spector Sports ‏@SportsnetSpec

“... if we meet than if we don't. So we are ready to meet. If indeed they do not want to meet, it will be at least the third time..."
Quote:
Mark Spector Sports ‏@SportsnetSpec

“... in the last three months that they have shut down the dialogue, saying they will not meet unless the players meet their preconditions."
Quote:
Mark Spector Sports ‏@SportsnetSpec

"What does that tell you about their interest in resolving this?” _ S.Fehr
Now that they're again arguing through the media, I think we can just about stick a fork in this season.

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Old
11-15-2012, 11:21 PM
  #147
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Always amusing to listen to the PA bluster about concessions when it's been the NHL negotiating against it's own offers in an attempt to get something done right from the start of the lockout.

Maybe there is something to those rumors about Fehr's massive ego and his desire to tear down the salary cap. Guess we'll find out sooner than later.

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Old
11-15-2012, 11:26 PM
  #148
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Kypreos just got visibly upset on TV, good stuff.

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Old
11-16-2012, 12:42 AM
  #149
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Kypreos just got visibly upset on TV, good stuff.
What did he say?

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Old
11-16-2012, 12:48 AM
  #150
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Originally Posted by dustrock View Post
Just like the players aren't necessarily unified, neither are the owners.

It's been mentioned (although not for a while) that some owners, like Dolan, hate the lockout and want the season on - probably partially because he's got a shot at winning with the Rangers.

But the core group of guys like Snider and Jeremy Jacobs are in tight with Bettman and they'll back his play to the end.

It would be nice to know how the owners are discussing things like max contracts and UFA status, etc, because teams like Philly and NYR are always going to throw silly money.

You can't just say "owners that lose money are bad businessmen". They are dealing with guaranteed contracts and a salary cap floor they need to reach, regardless of their own team attendance, revenue, etc.

When you get GMs like Tallon driving dump trucks of money on mediocre players just to reach the cap floor, it seems like a broken model to me.
I would've figured Snider and Jacobs would want the lockout over (like the Leafs and Dolan) because they're among the few teams that are profitable. It's the other teams that are losing less money not having a season than they would if the season was played that are hard lining this one (I honestly don't know enough about this, so I could be wrong).

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