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Off-season Madness the 4th: and here we wait in trade-completion limbo

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11-15-2012, 10:40 PM
  #351
kb
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Originally Posted by The Nemesis View Post
your're arruing hte wrong thing. Scion's retort was entirely toward an argument based on the rarity of the event. The time frame involved was never a factor in the argument.

The argument was that the triple crown is a rarity in baseball, therefore deserving of MVP.

the retort was that if rarity of the feat was a significant and deciding factor, then should we not consider Josh Hamilton's 4-HR game given its similar rarity?

The whole point was that it was a ridiculous statement to make, for the purposes of pointing out how ridiculous it is to say that the rarity of an event informs its importance or value.

And since those of you who dislike sabr stats tend to just mock/ignore/dismiss anything resembling a number that's not traditionally on the back of a baseball card, let's look at it this way:

Mike Trout's team won more games. He put up a historically incredible season without playing the entire season's worth of games, did it at a position where offence of that caliber is not the norm, did it as a young player in his first year in the league, and while providing outstanding defence and an additional dimension of speed, neither of which Cabrera provided. His season is equally historically rare and incredible as the triple crown. The only differentiators are that a) the Angels were in a tougher division with two other good teams that Trout and the Angels have no control over the # of wins accumulated by, whereas the Tigers played in a division that was much weaker and which they only won (and made the playoffs) because Kansas City fell apart in the latter portion of hte season) and b) What trout did doesn't have a fancy label applied to it like "triple crown" to inflate its importance or glamour.

There. No mention of UZR or wrc+ or any of those other scary acronyms and numbers that only nerds who live in their parents' basement understand.
A Triple Crown is a rare event, however it is a season long event. It has historical significance to traditionalists. His analogy was a single game event. I would suggest that he undermined his position by not using an example that is relevant 'in context' to the discussion at hand. Not sure if you saw my edit, but I personally would have leaned towards Trout for MVP as well. However, the traditionalist in me recognizes the rarity of an achievement that has historically been considered the pinnacle of offensive greatness (rightly or wrongly).

It doesn't make the selection of Cabrera wrong....nowhere in the MVP voting process does it say that it the MVP must be based on advanced metrics.

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11-15-2012, 10:44 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
You're really saying that it's not worth debating who had a better year? How am I supposed to rebut that...an argument about it being worth having an argument? That's like dividing by zero. Just needing to ask anyone to argue in favor of Cabrera means that it's worth discussing, rendering Scion's point invalid.
I think it's worth having a debate, I just don't think you are open minded enough to accept alternative views.

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11-15-2012, 10:47 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by kb View Post
A Triple Crown is a rare event, however it is a season long event. It has historical significance to traditionalists. His analogy was a single game event. I would suggest that he undermined his position by not using an example that is relevant 'in context' to the discussion at hand. Not sure if you saw my edit, but I personally would have leaned towards Trout for MVP as well. However, the traditionalist in me recognizes the rarity of an achievement that has historically been considered the pinnacle of offensive greatness (rightly or wrongly).
which has been explicitly stated multiple times as not being relevant to the point that was being made with it.

Quote:
It doesn't make the selection of Cabrera wrong....nowhere in the MVP voting process does it say that it the MVP must be based on advanced metrics.
and nowhere here has it been said that should be part of the process. That is completely irrelevant here. The point is that the decision should be made properly, with deference to any and all information that can help frame the decision properly. If it happens to be advanced metrics, fine. If not, equally fine. "the triple crown is a rare thing" is not a something that can properly frame the arguement. What Mike Trout did as a 20 year old and as a CF is equally rare, if not rarer. The only difference is that it doesn't have a nickname applied to it like the triple crown does.

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Old
11-15-2012, 10:48 PM
  #354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nemesis View Post
That's entirely the point! The point wasn't to say that Josh Hamilton is every bit the deserving MVP candidate as Miguel Cabrera. The point was to show that calling Cabrera the MVP just because the triple crown is a rare thing (which someone here, and numerous sports writers have actually said) is just as absurd as saying Hamilton should be in the conversation because he hit 4 homers in a game last year.
Nemesis,

I don't think they have an issue with the fact that it's a rare occurrence...

Many things that happen in baseball are "rare things"...i.e. a triple play, or a game put under protest by a manager

But that doesn't make them rare feats

Yes, hitting 4 homeruns in a game and hitting for the triple crown are two very rary occurences.

But one suggests mastery at the plate for an entire season, which is a feat. Not an occurence. Hitting for the triple crown doesn't simply just "happen". It occurs due to a long term demonstration of batting prowess. Hitting 4 home runs, as proven by the fact that Mike Cameron did it, can happen to even an average player.

You CAN NOT however, tell me that anyone even close to an average player would ever sniff the triple crown, hence why it has been won once in the last 45 years. Yes, the triple crown is a fairly ARBITRARY name, and occurs when a player combines what some may consider fairly useless (I debate this) stats together, but you can not, in my opinion, understate the significance of a player achieving the triple crown. The pure fact of its rarity combined with the fact that in order to achieve it, you need to demonstrate continual mastery in the box makes it a tremendous feat, hardly a meaningless phrased coined by some reporter in the 60s.

edit: my definition's of "feat" and "occurence" may be off but I think my point is fairly clear.

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Old
11-15-2012, 10:49 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by The Nemesis View Post
That's entirely the point! The point wasn't to say that Josh Hamilton is every bit the deserving MVP candidate as Miguel Cabrera. The point was to show that calling Cabrera the MVP just because the triple crown is a rare thing (which someone here, and numerous sports writers have actually said) is just as absurd as saying Hamilton should be in the conversation because he hit 4 homers in a game last year.
This.

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Old
11-15-2012, 10:55 PM
  #356
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11-15-2012, 11:10 PM
  #357
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Did anyone get a chance to read the mayor of Miami's letter to Bud Selig.

Seriously, I know Loria has absolutely gutted his team and that doesn't bode well for the fanbase but its not like he's been completely ripped off. They got a pretty good package of prospects.

I just find it so desperate that a mayor is urging a commissioner to veto the deal.

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11-15-2012, 11:12 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Dark Knight View Post
Did anyone get a chance to read the mayor of Miami's letter to Bud Selig.

Seriously, I know Loria has absolutely gutted his team and that doesn't bode well for the fanbase but its not like he's been completely ripped off. They got a pretty good package of prospects.

I just find it so desperate that a mayor is urging a commissioner to veto the deal.
Do you have a link?

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11-15-2012, 11:17 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by Scion View Post
Do you have a link?
http://www.wsvn.com/news/articles/sp...lins-sell-off/

link to a story about it, not to the letter itself (if a full transcript of the letter exists)

EDIT: end of the article suggests he hasn't written the full, final draft of the letter yet.

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11-15-2012, 11:23 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by Dark Knight View Post
Did anyone get a chance to read the mayor of Miami's letter to Bud Selig.

Seriously, I know Loria has absolutely gutted his team and that doesn't bode well for the fanbase but its not like he's been completely ripped off. They got a pretty good package of prospects.

I just find it so desperate that a mayor is urging a commissioner to veto the deal.
If that's true this is ridiculous. How can he justify writing that letter when the people of Miami generally don't care about the Marlins. Their attendance reflects this and the ownership doesn't want to be stuck losing millions of dollars when they can build with the five prospects and two everyday players that they received for them. It's not like we traded them a bunch of bums.

As soon as politics gets involved with sports there's a problem. Looks like this could be the case in the failing state of the Marlins and baseball in southern Florida.

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11-15-2012, 11:25 PM
  #361
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Only partially kidding. But there is a part of me that thinks young people should have to build up to getting anything worthwhile.
It's an MVP, not a life-time achievement award...If a player is the most valuable player in a given season, he deserves an award, no bones about it. Because he's a rookie doesn't change that...in fact, that he was able to do what he did in about a month's less time only increases his value and how much he deserved the award.

Anyways, hopefully Reyes finishes his physical in the morning and we can get on with this...I'm actually tired of this trade chicken little reaction that has come from it. Hopefully AA sets up a press conference for right after the league approves it, because that will also put to rest the "lets trade Buerhle and Johnson for other stuff and sign Greinke and Sanchez!!!" stuff that I've read (not literally these proposals...).

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Old
11-15-2012, 11:29 PM
  #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nemesis View Post
http://www.wsvn.com/news/articles/sp...lins-sell-off/

link to a story about it, not to the letter itself (if a full transcript of the letter exists)

EDIT: end of the article suggests he hasn't written the full, final draft of the letter yet.
Thanks.

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11-15-2012, 11:37 PM
  #363
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How do sabremetrics even factor into this debate? Its the most valuable player award, not most impressive hitter. Don't need any advanced stats to figure that out on your own.

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11-15-2012, 11:38 PM
  #364
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If this 120 mill is true.. I would be more open to trying to trading one of Buck or Lind for a cheaper, less stellar starter. A #6 guy if you will... who can keep his ERA under 5. with a league average WHIP.

Let JP start the year with Bobby Wilson and have D'Arnaud come up in a couple months. Lind DH's.

OR have JP and Buck start the year and have D'Arnaud come up and do the "Buster Posey rookie year" thing with split AB's between C, 1B and DH. (With the ultimate goal of having a 1-2 punch behind the plate in TDA and JP).

In either situation you would use the money saved to try and get another FA. They're both worth about 7 mill... so you could turn that into a pretty good player on a 1 or 2 year deal with an option.

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11-15-2012, 11:43 PM
  #365
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Originally Posted by topched View Post
If this 120 mill is true.. I would be more open to trying to trading one of Buck or Lind for a cheaper, less stellar starter. A #6 guy if you will... who can keep his ERA under 5. with a league average WHIP.

Let JP start the year with Bobby Wilson and have D'Arnaud come up in a couple months. Lind DH's.

OR have JP and Buck start the year and have D'Arnaud come up and do the "Buster Posey rookie year" thing with split AB's between C, 1B and DH. (With the ultimate goal of having a 1-2 punch behind the plate in TDA and JP).

In either situation you would use the money saved to try and get another FA. They're both worth about 7 mill... so you could turn that into a pretty good player on a 1 or 2 year deal with an option.
Those guys have a heck lot more value than Lind or Buck. These guys are salary dumps at best.

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11-15-2012, 11:43 PM
  #366
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How do sabremetrics even factor into this debate? Its the most valuable player award, not most impressive hitter. Don't need any advanced stats to figure that out on your own.
The VERY simple answer to this argument is whether you're "Old School" or "New School".

ATM the association seems to be a mix, with more "Old School" writers still in existence. That is why Cabrera won this year.

In 5-10 years, I would guarantee that once the writers association is comprised of younger writers, you could go back and poll the new association and Trout would garner quite a bit more votes than Cabrera.


I think the real travesty here are the plug beat writers who give "their guy" the courtesy vote. Its ridiculous to me that Ibanez could get a vote, or that Michael Young could get one last year. These guys need to grow up and take this thing seriously

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11-15-2012, 11:43 PM
  #367
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The difference and value of the triple crown is because it is a season long difference and a season long value. It was definitely a press thing but what are you going to do about it? Complain every time some one wins a trophy because of the media? Happens all the time.

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11-15-2012, 11:47 PM
  #368
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Personally think Jays should try to deal JPA for someone like Ogando. He can move to the starting role or be lights out out of the pen. Might be tough to pry him away though.

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11-15-2012, 11:51 PM
  #369
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Those guys have a heck lot more value than Lind or Buck. These guys are salary dumps at best.
You don't think you could trade Lind or Buck for an Aaron Laffey type player, who is a little younger and has an option or two left?

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11-15-2012, 11:56 PM
  #370
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You don't think you could trade Lind or Buck for an Aaron Laffey type player, who is a little younger and has an option or two left?
Nope. Pitching is more valuable than getting overpaid weak hitting 1B/catcher. Buck would have some value if it wasn't for the money he'll make.

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11-15-2012, 11:57 PM
  #371
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How do sabremetrics even factor into this debate? Its the most valuable player award, not most impressive hitter. Don't need any advanced stats to figure that out on your own.
Exactly. This is the most valuable player award, not most impressive hitter. Which is why Trout, who is more impressive than Miggy in every aspect of the game aside from hitting, should have won the award.

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11-15-2012, 11:58 PM
  #372
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So assuming we're working under the parameters of a strict budget right now, what are some options as a 5th starter for under, say 5M? Finding a starter through FA, and on the cheap, is probably a heck of alot easier now with the recent moves. So far AA has used FA to find depth/role players (Izturis has been his biggest FA signing since arrival) and prefers the trade route to find the higher talent. So it would be logical to assume if he did aqcuire a 5th starter it would be a free agent. Here's a few I think could fit.

Dan Haren (injury reports are concerning but it smells of a bargain)
Brandon McCarthy (has cleared all medical tests)
Francisco Liriano
Joe Blanton

I don't think any of these guys will demand a multi year deal over 2 years, more likely 1yr with a team option and possibly performance bonuses. Thoughts?

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11-16-2012, 12:04 AM
  #373
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Also, if Trout had won a gold glove then that surely would work in his favor, but he didn't.
Oh, boy.

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11-16-2012, 12:06 AM
  #374
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Blanton sucks and Liriano is a threat to implode at any given moment.

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11-16-2012, 12:10 AM
  #375
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i hope selig doesn't veto this because of some mummers. there was a lot more outrage about bond's HR record staying his and he didn't move a finger. he better not try to play hero now because if he does all of canada will hate him for the rest of his tenure.

as for the AL MVP i'm fine with the fact that miggy got it, i believed it to be a toss up because miggy won the all elusive triple crown.
that being said i would of chosen trout because of his all around player ability. miggy maybe the better pure hitter but i would take trout any day of the week to build my team.

also i joked with my friend that we should trade lind and JPA for mauer and morneau as we are taking on so much salary anyways. go for broke!

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