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Everybody's talking at me; I don't hear a word they're saying (CBA/Lockout XXIX)

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Old
11-15-2012, 11:36 PM
  #101
SuperUnknown
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
The league is financially unsustainable due to the owners, not the players. They were happy to take (and not share) the expansion fee. Maybe they should have done their homework.
So if the league was to fold, that would somehow help the players? Sounds like a bizarro world.

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11-15-2012, 11:37 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Daly is confirming what most of us have knows for quite a while. NHLPA aren't negotiating. They keep tabling the same proposal, that they know have zero chance of success because it pushes all the risk over at the owners, over and over again and doesn't really negotiate.

The players needs to wake up and take control of the situation.
You framing it that way doesn't make it true.

Let me try: Daly confirmed what most of us know already. The NHL isn't negotiationg.

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11-15-2012, 11:38 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Are you at least willing to consider that the last system maybe hastened some teams' financial decline?

If you say yes, then do you feel that going to 50/50 alone will make it all work better (setting aside the variance issue for the moment)?


The numbers don't bear that out. What we always come back to is that the richest teams will simply pocket most of that money, while the poor will continue to be poor and we'll feel sorry for them. (Sense and Sensibility quote, iirc.) This is what justifies a lockout--- from a fan perspective?
But doesnt the addition of 230-250m to revenue sharing(not sure what they agreed upon in latest talks) + more as revenue grows a key part of this new cba as well?

wont that help alot?(i'm actually asking) 50/50 saves a large chunk of cash for the owners, the RS will spread it more around the league. Revenue will most certainly grow as well with relocations or possible expansions(it most likely wont be growing at a consistent rate though.)

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Old
11-15-2012, 11:38 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
What alternate reality has come over these negotiations.

What will the NHL give up in these negotiations?
Give me ONE thing the players will gain that they didn't have at the end of the CBA.
What did the NFL players gain? What did the NBA players gain?

Negotiating a CBA is not about give and take, not about fairness, but about trying to reach an agreement that both sides can live with.

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Old
11-15-2012, 11:38 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by SuperUnknown View Post
So if the league was to fold, that would somehow help the players? Sounds like a bizarro world.



The league will now fold? ~Really?~


~~~News to me. ~~~~

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Old
11-15-2012, 11:40 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Are you at least willing to consider that the last system maybe hastened some teams' financial decline?

If you say yes, then do you feel that going to 50/50 alone will make it all work better (setting aside the variance issue for the moment)?


The numbers don't bear that out. What we always come back to is that the richest teams will simply pocket most of that money, while the poor will continue to be poor and we'll feel sorry for them. (Sense and Sensibility quote, iirc.) This is what justifies a lockout--- from a fan perspective?
Well. last cba it was estimated teams were losing 225million 2003-04 so they went from that to a 120-200mil profit as a whole. And if that escalator from 54 to 57 wasn't in the cba, I would say that most teams would be fine. So really the only mistake of the last cba was that escalator. So with a further cut to 50 percent and more rs, I be t we don't see the same probs in 2018 or w/e it is when this cba expires.

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Old
11-15-2012, 11:40 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
What alternate reality has come over these negotiations.

What will the NHL give up in these negotiations?
Give me ONE thing the players will gain that they didn't have at the end of the CBA.
If you consider not doing more damage to the NHL in the eyes of fans (and more importantly sponsors) a gain by signing a deal, well there's that.


What concerns me is that the PA has only been perceived as talking about money (in public, and "leaked" memos) and nothing else. If they came out and said "fine, we accept the 50/50 split, the make whole, and the revised revenue sharing formula. We accept no other changes regarding contract limits, arbitration, free agency, etc. " they'd probably win the PR war hands down.

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11-15-2012, 11:41 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by supahdupah View Post
You are just bickering for the sake of it. I don't understand it at all.

What are you doing?

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Old
11-15-2012, 11:42 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by NJDevs26 View Post
It's called a negotiation, both sides have to give up something at least for it to be a negotiation and not an extortion. Obviously the players have to give up a lot more than the owners since the structure (57-43 on HRR and 27-7 FA rules with no contract length restrictions) still favors them and since the leverage lies with the owners anyway.

What I find amusing is how much the NHL trumpted the fact they sat out a year to get the cap and now the deal they lost a whole season for is so bad everything about it needs to be improved at the cost of losing another season

I don't really get what's so wrong with the game with different Stanley Cup winners every year, cap ensuring small-market teams can get a crack at the big FA's. The only thing that needs to be changed is to eliminate the cap circumventing contracts. Everything else about this negotiation is flat greed.
That would more accurately be defined as a "trade", where both sides are giving up something of perceived value in exchange for something of equivalent value. Negotiations do not necessarily fall into this equitation, especially when one side is in a considerably better bargaining position..

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Old
11-15-2012, 11:42 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Are you at least willing to consider that the last system maybe hastened some teams' financial decline?

If you say yes, then do you feel that going to 50/50 alone will make it all work better (setting aside the variance issue for the moment)?


The numbers don't bear that out. What we always come back to is that the richest teams will simply pocket most of that money, while the poor will continue to be poor and we'll feel sorry for them. (Sense and Sensibility quote, iirc.) This is what justifies a lockout--- from a fan perspective?
Fugu,

I suspect you are right. No matter the %age, the revenue disparity between Toronto and Phoenix (just 2 examples) will be huge. Some of that can obviously be mitigated by increasing the spread between the floor and the cap.

However, What else can be done to make the lower revenue teams profitable?
How about 10% of gate receipts for each game to the visitors?

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Old
11-15-2012, 11:42 PM
  #113
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Look, i'm not saying the players are going to win doing this. I know they'll break first. The league knows they'll break first but i'm enjoying the heck out of this fight cuz it's frustrating the very people who caused the mess we are in and have been in for the last 2 decades.

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Old
11-15-2012, 11:42 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
The numbers don't bear that out. What we always come back to is that the richest teams will simply pocket most of that money, while the poor will continue to be poor and we'll feel sorry for them. (Sense and Sensibility quote, iirc.) This is what justifies a lockout--- from a fan perspective?
Ok, but that just defines life. MLB, NHL, NFL, NBA - the rich get richer.

No league has a perfect system. Neither does the NHL.

So what is your solution? Let's stop arguing about right and wrong. Noone can win these subjective arguments.

To me the simplest thing to do in order to SOLVE THE PROBLEM is to negotiate off of the owner's offer. Had the PA offered ANYTHING other than flat salary plus raises, I would consider that as a negotiation basis - for example, a soft cap.

Since the PA has offered nothing but unrealistic proposals, I can't help but conclude that they don't have a plan.

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Old
11-15-2012, 11:44 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post


The league will now fold? ~Really?~


~~~New to me. ~~~~
It's based on what you said. If the league is financially unsustainable due to the owners, not the players, then the NHL has nothing left but to fold. With the majority of costs being players, and the financial model unsustainable, then how can it be improved without reducing the biggest costs down? It can't.

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11-15-2012, 11:44 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by PensFanSince1989 View Post
I don't know, the fact that over half the teams in the league are losing money by our best estimates, with a good chunk of other teams just scraping to stay even. That seems like a problem....
Most of those teams are losing money because their rinks are half empty. Guess who's to blame for that?

Hint: His initials are Gary Bettman.

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Old
11-15-2012, 11:44 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by meedle View Post
Well. last cba it was estimated teams were losing 225million 2003-04 so they went from that to a 120-200mil profit as a whole. And if that escalator from 54 to 57 wasn't in the cba, I would say that most teams would be fine. So really the only mistake of the last cba was that escalator. So with a further cut to 50 percent and more rs, I be t we don't see the same probs in 2018 or w/e it is when this cba expires.

That's fair. I tend to believe however that the linked system is inflationary, so IF revenues again increase at 5-7%, or more, which seems to outpace the ability of the weakest teams' growth.....

Think of it as one of those relativity scenarios (to make this really hard). You're moving along at half the speed of light, but the other guys around you are going at the speed of light. Their mass does weird stuff at that point. (If anyone needs me to explain this, I'll have to sleep on it because it's too late. )

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Old
11-15-2012, 11:45 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Are you at least willing to consider that the last system maybe hastened some teams' financial decline?

If you say yes, then do you feel that going to 50/50 alone will make it all work better (setting aside the variance issue for the moment)?


The numbers don't bear that out. What we always come back to is that the richest teams will simply pocket most of that money, while the poor will continue to be poor and we'll feel sorry for them. (Sense and Sensibility quote, iirc.) This is what justifies a lockout--- from a fan perspective?
Revenue sharing is needed to, and the NHL has expanded that, though they can't do it as much as other leagues because 1. There aren't enough hugely profitable teams and 2. Not nearly as big central revenue streams.

And yes, the last CBA did contribute to the financial losses when the Canadian dollar rose so much which unequally benefitted 6 teams at the expense of 24 among other things. But one of the bigger things was the increase from 54 to 57%. Going from 57-50 represents probably about a 12% or so league wide drop in costs. That goes a long way to alleviate some stresses.

And that may also be why they are wanting to restrict rights (though I don't think they will be successful at it, while they want it I don't think they will risk a season for it except for preventing cap circumvention.). But they probably think its better to give smaller market teams a higher chance at keeping their stars that they drafted rather than have them poached by already profiteable teams. That's what their ELC, Term limit and UFA changes do.

And I will say this. If the owners get this system in place, any team that struggles without much reasonable hope of turning it around in the near future should be scuttled, either through contraction or relocation (and it pains me to say that as a Pens fan, but I do think teams should be given the chance to right their ship, but eventually enough is enough and if they can't survive with a better CBA, its probably in the NHL's and nhlpa s interest to at least see them moved


Last edited by PensFanSince1989: 11-15-2012 at 11:51 PM.
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Old
11-15-2012, 11:47 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
If the PA was not hell bent on $600 million to be "made whole." They could very well negotiate around the contract issues by just accepting the variance clause. I admit, there is no guarantee of this but their position would be far better than now. When you include the possibility of the PA demanding a full 82 game salary. I question who is being unreasonable.
I think it's brilliant negotiating. Fehr made something up that the players could claim as something they're owed because they were prevented from working. He will 'concede' this issue when the NHL 'concedes' on one of those things they don't have but have thrown out as something they're likely to 'concede' too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperUnknown View Post
Well you can gain by not losing more. I know that's not what you want to hear, but if you can get $0 or $1.5B, even if $1.5B is below what you wish you had, it's still better than $0.
So extortion?

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11-15-2012, 11:47 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
Look, i'm not saying the players are going to win doing this. I know they'll break first. The league knows they'll break first but i'm enjoying the heck out of this fight cuz it's frustrating the very people who caused the mess we are in and have been in for the last 2 decades.
The NHLPA are frustrated?

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11-15-2012, 11:48 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
That's fair. I tend to believe however that the linked system is inflationary, so IF revenues again increase at 5-7%, or more, which seems to outpace the ability of the weakest teams' growth.....

Think of it as one of those relativity scenarios (to make this really hard). You're moving along at half the speed of light, but the other guys around you are going at the speed of light. Their mass does weird stuff at that point. (If anyone needs me to explain this, I'll have to sleep on it because it's too late. )
I agree that growth isn't equal across the board. but the RS plan is suppose to change according to growth. In theory it should not cover it all but would cover some of that disparity. Should still make it better. And i think we all agree by the time the new cba is in place, Phoenix will be in some other market so thats not really gonna be an issue.

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Old
11-15-2012, 11:50 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
What alternate reality has come over these negotiations.

What will the NHL give up in these negotiations?
Give me ONE thing the players will gain that they didn't have at the end of the CBA.

A pay cheque ???

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11-15-2012, 11:51 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
So extortion?
Players can work elsewhere than the NHL, it's not like they're doomed without the NHL. So change that $0 to whatever they can earn in the different other leagues. Or they could buy the owner's stakes and run the league as a collective splitting revenues amongst themselves (and keeping it all to themselves).

If their talent in hockey was so great that it generated a lot of profits to the owners, than obviously the owners would be the ones bleeding. It's not the case though, so instead the NHL players have to bleed until the pendulum swings back the other way.

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11-15-2012, 11:51 PM
  #124
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The NHLPA are frustrated?
I'm sure they're a little frustrated the league won't let them make a living but Fehr has done a masterful job so far frustrating the big bad billionaires.

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11-15-2012, 11:51 PM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
You framing it that way doesn't make it true.

Let me try: Daly confirmed what most of us know already. The NHL isn't negotiationg.
What has NHLPA accepted in these last three months of 'negotiations'? Name a single thing.

NHL has accepted more in revenue sharing, better conditions for the players when it comes to travel and medicals. They have moved significantly off their initial proposal (not surprising since it was an ambit claim). They have tried to save the season.

All Fehr is doing is tabling the same proposal over again claiming he has given up a billion dollars. Not real dollars of course. The NHLPA has offered to give up exactly zero of those. But in fantasy future dollars assuming growth that is very unrealistic at this stage, boy has the union been willing to give up a tonne of those.

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