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Old
11-15-2012, 10:00 PM
  #676
Ho Borvat
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Originally Posted by LeafOfBread View Post
Because Kulemin is a much better and more well-rounded player and brings a lot more than Mason Raymond does. And statistically he's improved every year, this past season was bad for him but his head wasn't in the game because of the personal issues he had to deal with in regards to his friends on Lokomotiv dying in the plane crash including his father figure/mentor, Korolev.

Even if he doesn't hit 30 again he has all the skill to be a 20-25 goal scorer with a solid defensive game.
Comparing Raymond and Kulemin is like comparing Daniel and Henrik Sedin.

You can argue that one is better than the other... But if there is a difference its marginal at best.

They are both in the same league, and neithers a distinct improvement on the other.

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Old
11-16-2012, 12:35 AM
  #677
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Originally Posted by The Saurus View Post
Brian Burke has been adamant that he will not give up futures for short-term help, which is what Roberto Luongo would be to the Leafs. IMO, he only has another two--maybe three-- decent years left.

So any recent first round picks are off the table in any deal for Roberto. That includes Tyler Biggs, Stuart Percy, Morgan Rielly or second round picks that have been performing exceptionally thus far like Matt Finn.

Older prospects like Joe Colborne, Nazem Kadri, and Matt Frattin won't be moved either. Needless to say, Jake Gardiner won't be involved in any trade.

That leaves the likes of Nik Kulemin, Clarke MacArthur, Cody Franson, etc., and any pick not in the first round up for trade.

If it's Kulemin, it'll most likely be him straight up for Roberto. If it's MacArthur, the Leafs will likely add a second round pick.

Just an honest question:

What other goalie do you think you could trade just Kulemin, or MacA + 3nd for?

Lindback fetched more than that..

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11-16-2012, 12:37 AM
  #678
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Originally Posted by Shawnathon View Post
Five teams interested is NOTHING for a goalie who is arguably top 5 in the league as of right now. You realize that, right?
If Bernier stole the show, and suddenly J-Quick was available, how many teams would be interested?

Probably not many more than 5

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Old
11-16-2012, 12:39 AM
  #679
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
Hey, whats' going on, I thought we already agreed on the deal? Don't you guys remember? Sheesh!

Lombardi + Colborne + Percy + 1st in 2014

for

Raymond + Luongo


Done and done.
It was Finn instead of Percy and a protected 1st in 2013. But if it is top 10 it. Can be deferred to 2014. I know we were both on the fence about it, but that was the deal we were discussing

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Old
11-16-2012, 12:42 AM
  #680
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
While we have some issues, our goaltending flat out sucked last season.
People forget the last time a goalie of Luongos caliber was traded, it was Luongo.

Its not often high end starters become available.

While some fans may want to address a top-line center first, there really arent any available right now (fair assumption?)

What if the leafs acquire a top center in (theoretically) 2 years?

Well they're still short a goalie. What if they cant find a goalie for another 2 years?

Well suddenly it takes 4 years to getyour top center and goalie, when it could have been 2 years.

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Old
11-16-2012, 01:33 AM
  #681
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Not sure how that changes my post. My point was 5 is a pretty high number of teams, i guess you could add them and call it 7 if you'd like.
I can generate 8 teams that should kick the tires, and really only 4 that I think will. It's not that high, but the trade fit makes it really a 0 team list to be fair.

I see:
Edmonton
Toronto
Florida

New Jersey
Washington
Chicago
Columbus
New York Islanders
Tampa Bay

as all possibilities.

If you look at Canuck needs in order:

#2RW (Ideally a mature rhs playmaking winger)
#3C (Mature with 2-way playmaking skills)
#2RD (Any age....situation on RD is dire)
High-end D Prospects
Center Prospects
#1 picks
LW Prospect

There is not really a good fit with many of those teams.

When you take into consideration salary cap issues, and willingness to trade between teams, it gets downright ugly.

Florida has assets Vancouver could use for the future, same for Edmonton. Toronto has nothing significant for the future they are willing to trade (other than a first) and nothing for the present (Kadri, Colborne etc. don't help much right now). Washington has Mike Green on a big contract and can balance out the deal with Neuvirth.

I consider Florida, Washington, Toronto and then Edmonton in that order as the best fit.

My favourite deal for Vancouver right now is:

Luongo +? for Green + ?

It would allow us to trade one of Ballard or in the worst case Edler, and balance the D out.

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Old
11-16-2012, 01:36 AM
  #682
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Originally Posted by The Saurus View Post
Brian Burke has been adamant that he will not give up futures for short-term help, which is what Roberto Luongo would be to the Leafs. IMO, he only has another two--maybe three-- decent years left.

So any recent first round picks are off the table in any deal for Roberto. That includes Tyler Biggs, Stuart Percy, Morgan Rielly or second round picks that have been performing exceptionally thus far like Matt Finn.

Older prospects like Joe Colborne, Nazem Kadri, and Matt Frattin won't be moved either. Needless to say, Jake Gardiner won't be involved in any trade.

That leaves the likes of Nik Kulemin, Clarke MacArthur, Cody Franson, etc., and any pick not in the first round up for trade.

If it's Kulemin, it'll most likely be him straight up for Roberto. If it's MacArthur, the Leafs will likely add a second round pick.
Keep going with that logic a little further. Maybe just guarantee that nobody in Toronto will be involved in a Luongo deal. I give you better than a 50% chance of being right. The rest of the predictions....

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Old
11-16-2012, 02:05 AM
  #683
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ginner classic View Post
I can generate 8 teams that should kick the tires, and really only 4 that I think will. It's not that high, but the trade fit makes it really a 0 team list to be fair.

I see:
Edmonton
Toronto
Florida

New Jersey
Washington
Chicago
Columbus
New York Islanders
Tampa Bay

as all possibilities.

If you look at Canuck needs in order:

#2RW (Ideally a mature rhs playmaking winger)
#3C (Mature with 2-way playmaking skills)
#2RD (Any age....situation on RD is dire)
High-end D Prospects
Center Prospects
#1 picks
LW Prospect

There is not really a good fit with many of those teams.

When you take into consideration salary cap issues, and willingness to trade between teams, it gets downright ugly.

Florida has assets Vancouver could use for the future, same for Edmonton. Toronto has nothing significant for the future they are willing to trade (other than a first) and nothing for the present (Kadri, Colborne etc. don't help much right now). Washington has Mike Green on a big contract and can balance out the deal with Neuvirth.

I consider Florida, Washington, Toronto and then Edmonton in that order as the best fit.

My favourite deal for Vancouver right now is:

Luongo +? for Green + ?

It would allow us to trade one of Ballard or in the worst case Edler, and balance the D out.
I don't want Green, he is a bit injury prone seemingly, and I am not sure he is the right fit. I just think we seem to value guys that can play solid defense first, combined with Puck moving. But value wise great deal I guess.

Anyway that is not at all why I wanted to reply.

I really think the more I look at this the more I think Philly could become players. Homer is a guy that will go for it, Bryz is looking worse and worse (heard he was 3rd string in the KHL), and if they can find anyway to get out of that contract, I can see them sneaking in. I would put them as a darkhorse.

Plus I would love to try and grab Vorcek.

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Old
11-16-2012, 02:17 AM
  #684
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Yeah, out of all the "maybe, possibly" teams involved, Voracek is the player I think would be the best fit.

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Old
11-16-2012, 02:20 AM
  #685
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Jacob Markstrom

2W-4L
3.53 GAA
.884 SV%
0 SO

...in the AHL.

Yep, Panthers are set.

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Old
11-16-2012, 02:21 AM
  #686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ag925 View Post
Jacob Markstrom

2W-4L
3.53 GAA
.884 SV%
0 SO
Bust.
I kid, I kid.

Still, might make Tallon think about raising his offer a bit.

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Old
11-16-2012, 02:54 AM
  #687
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ag925 View Post
Jacob Markstrom

2W-4L
3.53 GAA
.884 SV%
0 SO

...in the AHL.

Yep, Panthers are set.
Pekka Rinne is doing nothing good in the KHL, lagging behind the like of Jeff Glass, Kari Ramo, Erik Esberg.

How do we explain that?

http://en.khl.ru/stat/leaders/222/sv_pct/

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Old
11-16-2012, 03:49 AM
  #688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
Pekka Rinne is doing nothing good in the KHL, lagging behind the like of Jeff Glass, Kari Ramo, Erik Esberg.

How do we explain that?

http://en.khl.ru/stat/leaders/222/sv_pct/
Markstrom's teammate, Dov-Grumet Morris, is posting...

2W-4L
2.15 GAA
.929 SV%
2 SO

...which includes a shutout win over OKC.

How do we explain that?

BTW, name a single No. 1 in Predators history who hasn't performed well.

Mitch Korn, not Rinne, is the key to Nashville's goaltending.

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Old
11-16-2012, 03:52 AM
  #689
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ag925 View Post
Markstrom's teammate, Dov-Grumet Morris, is posting...

2W-4L
2.15 GAA
.929 SV%
2 SO

...which includes a shutout win over OKC.

How do we explain that?
Markstrom should retire IMO

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Old
11-16-2012, 03:55 AM
  #690
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Originally Posted by dubey View Post
Markstrom should retire IMO
I added to the post.

But, again, please explain the extreme difference in performance between the two goalies on the same team.

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Old
11-16-2012, 04:57 AM
  #691
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Originally Posted by ginner classic View Post
So no dispute you have the worst goaltending tandem in the nhl?

Yeah...luongo's not going to improve that at all. I wonder what 40 goals fewer in the net would mean in the W/L column.

Might shatter the prospectophilias' dreams of a first overall pick by making the palyoffs for the first time in a decade.
Did I ever write that Luongo wouldn't improve our goaltending situation? Roberto would only push the Leafs one or two spots ahead in the overall standings, essentially making the Leafs a mediocre team instead of a terrible team.

He's not worth significant assets to the Leafs.

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Old
11-16-2012, 05:01 AM
  #692
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Originally Posted by ginner classic View Post
Keep going with that logic a little further. Maybe just guarantee that nobody in Toronto will be involved in a Luongo deal.
And that's the way it should be. Besides, the Leafs shouldn't handcuff themselves financially with an albatross contract, especially when the Leafs will have the most cap space in the league to spend on UFAs next summer.

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11-16-2012, 05:50 AM
  #693
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Originally Posted by The Saurus View Post
And that's the way it should be. Besides, the Leafs shouldn't handcuff themselves financially with an albatross contract, especially when the Leafs will have the most cap space in the league to spend on UFAs next summer.


Again, explain to me how a cap-circumvention contract is an "albatross". It makes no sense. Really think about the contradiction in that statement, and the league's willingness to close the loophole, and reconsider your position on it.



You can not want Luongo. That's fair. But to continue to call his excellent contract an albatross shows your lack of education about it, and its effects on a rich team's cap structure. Shockingly, some media types have said what you have said, but they don't get questioned. So I'm not surprised that this false assumption as persisted... Ken Holland, Mike Gillis, Paul Holmgren and even Dale Tallon were some of the few GMs that exploited this loophole while it was still an option to do so. I suppose these are all terrible GMs in your POV?

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11-16-2012, 07:15 AM
  #694
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
To be honest I'm happy to have found common ground with at least some Leafs fans. There's not much else we can discuss until a trade actually happens. I suppose the main question now isn't of Luongo's value, but simply how much Toronto could feasibly offer compared to Edmonton/Florida. It's reasonable to think TO goes the hardest after Luongo, but there's still a wide range of opinions by Leafs fans.

Lupul, cond 1st, and a b prospect/roster player is fine by me, and several Leafs fans are okay with that. There's no pleasing everyone, though.
I know that nobody believes me but Gillis is not looking to trade lou to Edm or Chitown, it possibly suicide. I mean you do not if at all possible make a trade to one of them if I am him. If one of those teams beats you in or for the playoffs, OUCH!!!

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11-16-2012, 07:21 AM
  #695
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Originally Posted by The Saurus View Post
And that's the way it should be. Besides, the Leafs shouldn't handcuff themselves financially with an albatross contract, especially when the Leafs will have the most cap space in the league to spend on UFAs next summer.
Wow...so we have a buttload of cap space....but we shouldn't use any of it on a starting goalie...makes sense. F

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11-16-2012, 07:36 AM
  #696
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Originally Posted by Ag925 View Post
Jacob Markstrom

2W-4L
3.53 GAA
.884 SV%
0 SO

...in the AHL.

Yep, Panthers are set.
Clearly a beer league goalie.

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Old
11-16-2012, 07:37 AM
  #697
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Originally Posted by doorman View Post
I know that nobody believes me but Gillis is not looking to trade lou to Edm or Chitown, it possibly suicide. I mean you do not if at all possible make a trade to one of them if I am him. If one of those teams beats you in or for the playoffs, OUCH!!!
I will say a agree...with a disclaimer...if EDM or CHI offer a deal that clearly is the best, how does Gillis say no. The idea is to improve his team.

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11-16-2012, 08:06 AM
  #698
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Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
If Bernier stole the show, and suddenly J-Quick was available, how many teams would be interested?

Probably not many more than 5
i disagree. considering the age difference i suspect there would be closer to 20 teams interested in quick, if not more.

they have similar cap hits and term left on their contracts except one is 26 and one is 33.

no one knows for sure how many good years luongo has left but i think most would agree that a 26 year old goalie would have more good years left then a 33 year old.

if that is the case then luongo should theoretically be most coveted by teams who are contenders or on the verge of being a contender and an upgrade in net could possibly push them over the top. the problem is most teams who are contenders have a reliable goaltender. there are a few above average teams who could use an upgrade in net;

san jose, chicago, and washington are the ones that come to mind. these are mature teams who if they had luongo in net it could actually make a difference.

the teams that need a goalie the most are the teams who are the weakest because they are missing multiple components. adding luongo wont make too much of a difference. teams like columbus, and edmonton might be kicking tires but these teams dont make any sense. they dont have any roster players that they could part with that would help vancouver right away and their 1st round picks are so high that it is doubtful that they would be included. they are also so far away from competing that by the time they are ready luongo could be on the decline.

in contrast, quick being so much younger then luongo makes him appealing to teams looking to compete now (since he was a payoff mvp and has a cup ring) and young enough that even on a team like columbus or edmonton he will be young enough to still be good when they are competitive.

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Old
11-16-2012, 08:07 AM
  #699
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I will say a agree...with a disclaimer...if EDM or CHI offer a deal that clearly is the best, how does Gillis say no. The idea is to improve his team.


Essentially, right on the mark. If the a divisional rival/general rival are making the best offers, by more than a marginal level, Gillis would be remiss not to accept in order to improve his team. That's his objective. GMs don't, or should not, operate out of fear. Being risk averse will not secure a GMs job.

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11-16-2012, 08:17 AM
  #700
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So does that put Kulemin in the same boat as he has only passed 40 points once in his career and is only 1 year younger?

Then why are Leafs fans (pretty sure u were one) valuing Kulemin as a 2nd line player saying he isn't available?
I myself have stated wanting to keep him because of his work ethic and two way play. Do I think he is a perenial 30 goal guy? no. However that has has has seasons of 15,17 I think he is roughly a 20 goal guy. But it is the things he does that others don't on our team right now that I love. The way he digs in the corner relentlessly, stands in front of the net and takes a beating, backchecks as hard as he play offence. It didn't matter he was having a bad season, he was still easily our hardest worker, that's why I don't wanna trade Kuli.

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