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Everybody's talking at me; I don't hear a word they're saying (CBA/Lockout XXIX)

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Old
11-16-2012, 02:28 AM
  #176
Ragamuffin Gunner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flameaholic View Post
Most of those teams are losing money because their rinks are half empty. Guess who's to blame for that?

Hint: His initials are Gary Bettman.
I though the players were the product?

So isn't it the players fault if they can be entertaining enough to sell out their home rink?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I think it's brilliant negotiating. Fehr made something up that the players could claim as something they're owed because they were prevented from working. He will 'concede' this issue when the NHL 'concedes' on one of those things they don't have but have thrown out as something they're likely to 'concede' too.
IIRC, you've stated that the owners moving from their original 57/43 offer to 50/50 wasn't a real concession because they knew that they would never get 57/43.

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11-16-2012, 03:31 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
adater ‏@adater
NHL wants two-week break from bargaining table, and in next breath says players have no interest in negotiating. Solid logic there



NHL thinking outside the box? Maybe not talking will move the parties closer to a solution?
Typical Dater bullcrap, the players are only negotiating based off their own initial proposal, the NHL has made several, if the NHLPA was serious about negotiating they wouldn't show up 6 hours late

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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Don't make Fehr the scapegoat. Bettman's negotiating tactics are well-known.



It's gotten them this far. The NHL could decide they're being unreasonable and salvage the season.

Of course, that would mean they would leave the contracting rights alone.

Remember when everyone was screaming that the league was ONLY interested in the HRR and linkage rate. Yup. So do I.
How is Gary being unreasonable, when the other side Show's up significantly late to meetings in order to piss the other side off Show me where Fehr has shown he's serious about making a deal

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11-16-2012, 03:49 AM
  #178
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Its all the PA all 95percent of it

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11-16-2012, 04:15 AM
  #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
So lets use Fehr math ("The players have offered the owners concessions worth about a billion dollars.") on the leagues make whole offer.

Basically the players assume the position they come from when they give concessions is 57% of HRR for the coming six years. It's a completely bizarre stance since the last CBA expired but hey, it makes for a good sound byte.

Let's assume 5% revenue growth for the next six years and ignore all the consequences of a shortened season because it's unlikely that it'll end up being anything than something both parties share the costs of.

The NHLPA thus feels for the coming six year period they are owed $13.43B (under the rules of the old CBA).

Using NHLPAs proposal of them earning a 1.75% raise every year until player share of HRR is 50% when it switches to a linked system would mean the players make $12.18B in the next six years. A 'concession' of $1.25B.

Using NHLs proposal of 50/50 all six years with $149M and $62M in make whole during the first two years mean the players would make $11.99B in the coming six years.

So why aren't the NHLPA willing to negotiate from the NHL make whole proposal if they are willing to make $1M concessions and the league's proposal has the (fantasy) difference only at $200M? Because it's not about dollars. It's about shifting risk. NHLPA knows it's unlikely that we will see 5% revenue growth in the coming years. With other growth rates the NHLPA proposal becomes much more advantageous for the player.

I'm not surprised the media not seeing through the smoke and mirrors of Fehr's claim of their concessions. They are too busy tweeting to open up Excel.

-----------

For Fugu, since you probably just missed it I'll ask again.

Over three months of negotiations. Name one thing NHLPA has given up. After all you claim they are the ones negotiating and NHL aren't.
Freudian, firstly, if you are going to use terms like givining up or give concessions -- you need a starting point. And that goes both ways.

You cannot seriously tell me that what has been the case the last 6 years is not what the parties are negotating off. Albeit at diffrent degrees, but still. I mean if Fehr would put a new issue on the table, that in relation to the old CBA was more favorable to the players, Bettman undoubtedly would see that as a "concession" and ask for something in return. It seriously just don't work any other way. If Bettman wants major concessions, because that is what he wants, he needs to motivate them, and he has of course also tried to do that. Its nothing wrong with that, but lets call a spade a spade. You and I are both Swedes, we have a simular situation here in Sweden with the Scandinavian airline SAS. The owners of the airline have given the unions an option to take a 25% pay cut or the owners say that they will bankrupt the airline. They say its a necessity, they can't compete with the low-price rivals and they note that the high salaries in SAS was created during the monopoly era of the 80s. But, they are not saying "eeeehhh what you made SEK 100.000 a month yesterday, so what? You will now get SEK 75.000 that is not a concession". The CEO, Rickard Gustafson, instead said quote "I know that we demand alot from our employees".

Your position (hey they start from scratch, to think anything else is "completely bizarre") on this issue is just not in touch with reality. There is no way any union ever in the world would accept that. This is not like a unique position by Fehr, anyone that ever leads the PA would of course be of the same position on this as Fehr is (if we give back something that we had previously, its a concession). And vise versa for Bettman. Of course.

Secondly, lets be honest here, the two parties are within spitting distance of each other on core economics. It needs some repeating, because anything else is BS (from either side):

The two parties are within spitting distance of each other on core economics.

The two parties are within spitting distance of each other on core economics.

The two parties are within spitting distance of each other on core economics.


Given the labour dispute history of the PA and the owners, its absolutely freakin' absurd on behalf of Fehr, Bettman, the PA and the owners, to even loose a single game on this diffrence (if one game/round is 1/100 of the total revenue of the league, one game is 30m).

Still, the NHL and Bettman and managed to set out the agenda to again be about economics. With a great deal of help from all media channels they have in their pockets. Because they do not want this to be about what it really is about.

There is just no way of come to any other conclusion than that what this really is about is contractual issues. The PA say "hey we went from 57 to 50, why should we give back in other ares too?". And I am sure there are 4-5, if not more, like teams in the position of EDM, CBJ and co, who tells Bettman that they will support an agreement he can negotiate if that agreements helps them to keep players they've gathered through a rebuild. With 7/27 and current arbitration you could rebuild for 5 years and still fail unless you manage to establish yourself untill your stars hit 25 y/o... (sure they have a good point).

So you have a chicken race on contractual issues. This is what this is about Freudian. Undoubtedly.

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Old
11-16-2012, 04:32 AM
  #180
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
The AHl has partnerships with them and a lot of the players already have experience with the NHLPA union. Baseball did do this and the couple guys that crossed and a lot of the replacements got mistreated for years. That is in a sport where it actually hard to just beat the guy up. I don't see any player taking that chance.
Well, if the player had a family to feed.
And he lost his job to an NHLer during the lockout...........

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11-16-2012, 04:58 AM
  #181
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LeBrun spoke to a NHL BOG

Quote:
Know this, Part 2: NHLPA executive director Don Fehr has done a "masterful" job so far of managing this lockout, one NHL governor told ESPN.com Wednesday. Fehr is getting the league to move on key issues such as revenue sharing and is keeping his players on board through it all. Heís also frustrated with the league to no end. But Fehrís grade is far from complete. His most important test is coming. Unless Iím completely misreading the tea leaves, I canít think of very many NHL players who are willing to sacrifice an entire season of hockey just so they can make a point to commissioner Gary Bettman. Iím not saying I would sign the leagueís latest, updated proposal from last week, but if Iím an NHL player, I demand that Fehr cut his losses over the next 2-3 weeks and try to make the best deal possible from whatís left on the table.
http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...l-be-permanent

That's for the people who "haven't liked a thing the PA has done".

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11-16-2012, 05:00 AM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Why don't you go back and respond to my posts instead of just saying I'm bickering just to bicker. What's the point in that? Do you have an opinion on the thread topic? Let's hear it.




But lesser than what was promised in the original partnership.

Sure, we had record growth, but you know, we want more of that money. Key word: want.

Well, maybe the players want those other paychecks.


If 50/50 is the common number on both sides' tablets, just some variance in the way to get there, what is holding everyone back?
There's a real simple answer to the last line in your post.
1 word spelled with 4 letters - FEHR.

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11-16-2012, 05:27 AM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
LeBrun spoke to a NHL BOG

Quote:
Know this, Part 2: NHLPA executive director Don Fehr has done a "masterful" job so far of managing this lockout, one NHL governor told ESPN.com Wednesday. Fehr is getting the league to move on key issues such as revenue sharing and is keeping his players on board through it all. He’s also frustrated with the league to no end. But Fehr’s grade is far from complete. His most important test is coming. Unless I’m completely misreading the tea leaves, I can’t think of very many NHL players who are willing to sacrifice an entire season of hockey just so they can make a point to commissioner Gary Bettman. I’m not saying I would sign the league’s latest, updated proposal from last week, but if I’m an NHL player, I demand that Fehr cut his losses over the next 2-3 weeks and try to make the best deal possible from what’s left on the table.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...l-be-permanent

That's for the people who "haven't liked a thing the PA has done".
I actually think if they sit down and iron out the contract rights, the PA may sign at the full season cut off point. And if they do, Fehr would've gained alot more than a Paul Kelly in a situation like this.

I do agree with Lebrun but it will be the players setting Fehr on the path to get it wrapped up and they just may do that if they wanted to.

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11-16-2012, 05:34 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by DL44 View Post
Anyone else think if the players ever come off of de-linkage on the condition of keeping the contractual in tact with the exception of restricting cap circumvention, that the owners would sign immediately on the dotted line?
Pretty much been saying that for 4 moths.

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11-16-2012, 05:40 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
I actually think if they sit down and iron out the contract rights, the PA may sign at the full season cut off point. And if they do, Fehr would've gained alot more than a Paul Kelly in a situation like this.

I do agree with Lebrun but it will be the players setting Fehr on the path to get it wrapped up and they just may do that if they wanted to.
Yeah, you can't deny the League has moved considerably off its original "best" offer. The challenge for the PA is to know when to stop pushing. I'm afraid they are going to keep pushing and keep pushing and Bettman will just cancel the season. It's a careful balancing act, and while I'm sure Fehr is a smart guy I'm afraid his emotions will get the best of him.

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11-16-2012, 05:51 AM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
LeBrun spoke to a NHL BOG

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...l-be-permanent

That's for the people who "haven't liked a thing the PA has done".
So basically Fehr has traded around $60M extra that some owners have to pay other owners in exchange for at least $250M in lost player wages. If that's a win for Fehr, I don't want to know what a loss looks like.

Considering NHL hasn't budged one inch on economics and contracting, I suspect that small concession in revenue sharing, player benefits could have been had much earlier had NHLPA been willing to negotiate.

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11-16-2012, 06:22 AM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
So lets use Fehr math ("The players have offered the owners concessions worth about a billion dollars.") on the leagues make whole offer.

Basically the players assume the position they come from when they give concessions is 57% of HRR for the coming six years. It's a completely bizarre stance since the last CBA expired but hey, it makes for a good sound byte.

Let's assume 5% revenue growth for the next six years and ignore all the consequences of a shortened season because it's unlikely that it'll end up being anything than something both parties share the costs of.

The NHLPA thus feels for the coming six year period they are owed $13.43B (under the rules of the old CBA).

Using NHLPAs proposal of them earning a 1.75% raise every year until player share of HRR is 50% when it switches to a linked system would mean the players make $12.18B in the next six years. A 'concession' of $1.25B.

Using NHLs proposal of 50/50 all six years with $149M and $62M in make whole during the first two years mean the players would make $11.99B in the coming six years.

So why aren't the NHLPA willing to negotiate from the NHL make whole proposal if they are willing to make $1M concessions and the league's proposal has the (fantasy) difference only at $200M? Because it's not about dollars. It's about shifting risk. NHLPA knows it's unlikely that we will see 5% revenue growth in the coming years. With other growth rates the NHLPA proposal becomes much more advantageous for the player.
I'm not surprised the media not seeing through the smoke and mirrors of Fehr's claim of their concessions. They are too busy tweeting to open up Excel.

-----------

For Fugu, since you probably just missed it I'll ask again.



Over three months of negotiations. Name one thing NHLPA has given up. After all you claim they are the ones negotiating and NHL aren't.
I'm scratching my head as well, why this is hardly ever mentioned. Just because the NHL survived the last economic downturn (thanks in a large part to the strength of the Canadian dollar and human nature that we will pay for entertainment to escape from everyday life when we really can't afford it), doesn't mean any future economic downturns might not wreck havoc with NHL profits. The NHL has to link expenses to revenue just like any other business otherwise there is too much risk for the owner. Esso doesn't set out the price of gas 7 years out it shifts it continually bassed on the cost of crude oil and production costs on an ongoing bases to ensure a profit. Re. their is linkage.


Last edited by KingBogo: 11-16-2012 at 06:35 AM.
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11-16-2012, 06:42 AM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Freudian, firstly, if you are going to use terms like givining up or give concessions -- you need a starting point. And that goes both ways.

You cannot seriously tell me that what has been the case the last 6 years is not what the parties are negotating off. Albeit at diffrent degrees, but still. I mean if Fehr would put a new issue on the table, that in relation to the old CBA was more favorable to the players, Bettman undoubtedly would see that as a "concession" and ask for something in return. It seriously just don't work any other way. If Bettman wants major concessions, because that is what he wants, he needs to motivate them, and he has of course also tried to do that. Its nothing wrong with that, but lets call a spade a spade. You and I are both Swedes, we have a simular situation here in Sweden with the Scandinavian airline SAS. The owners of the airline have given the unions an option to take a 25% pay cut or the owners say that they will bankrupt the airline. They say its a necessity, they can't compete with the low-price rivals and they note that the high salaries in SAS was created during the monopoly era of the 80s. But, they are not saying "eeeehhh what you made SEK 100.000 a month yesterday, so what? You will now get SEK 75.000 that is not a concession". The CEO, Rickard Gustafson, instead said quote "I know that we demand alot from our employees".

Your position (hey they start from scratch, to think anything else is "completely bizarre") on this issue is just not in touch with reality. There is no way any union ever in the world would accept that. This is not like a unique position by Fehr, anyone that ever leads the PA would of course be of the same position on this as Fehr is (if we give back something that we had previously, its a concession). And vise versa for Bettman. Of course.

Secondly, lets be honest here, the two parties are within spitting distance of each other on core economics. It needs some repeating, because anything else is BS (from either side):

The two parties are within spitting distance of each other on core economics.

The two parties are within spitting distance of each other on core economics.

The two parties are within spitting distance of each other on core economics.


Given the labour dispute history of the PA and the owners, its absolutely freakin' absurd on behalf of Fehr, Bettman, the PA and the owners, to even loose a single game on this diffrence (if one game/round is 1/100 of the total revenue of the league, one game is 30m).

Still, the NHL and Bettman and managed to set out the agenda to again be about economics. With a great deal of help from all media channels they have in their pockets. Because they do not want this to be about what it really is about.

There is just no way of come to any other conclusion than that what this really is about is contractual issues. The PA say "hey we went from 57 to 50, why should we give back in other ares too?". And I am sure there are 4-5, if not more, like teams in the position of EDM, CBJ and co, who tells Bettman that they will support an agreement he can negotiate if that agreements helps them to keep players they've gathered through a rebuild. With 7/27 and current arbitration you could rebuild for 5 years and still fail unless you manage to establish yourself untill your stars hit 25 y/o... (sure they have a good point).

So you have a chicken race on contractual issues. This is what this is about Freudian. Undoubtedly.
So a few smaller market teams trying to keep rookies are setting the main agenda for the NHL?

No man, its about money. Its always about money. Its about more owners needing more money from hrr to at least break even. Its about balancing the books so every team at least has a chance to break even. That's what the NHL really wants. They've already admitted they'd concede contract issues if the nhlpa would bargain off of their linked 50/50 split. Fehr just wont do it.

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11-16-2012, 07:03 AM
  #189
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for me this is the count down to the cancellation of the season

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11-16-2012, 07:05 AM
  #190
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Both Fehr's are big revenue sharing guys. They like salary arbitration and free agency. The NHL is in the Fehr brothers ballpark of $220M in revenue sharing. They wanted $240M. Close enough. Its more than the NHL owners wanted to pay. Fehr got the NHL to fund the make whole. $211M. NHL will have to increase it. Fehr got the NHL to drop their desire to change the definitions of HRR. We don't hear about that anymore. The NHL wanted to take out expenses. The NHL shouldn't be proposing making salary arbitration and free agency more restrictive. Its already the most restrictive system of the four major sports.

LeBrun reported the cheating contracts,preventing teams from dumping money in the AHL and punishing teams for the cheating contracts are the 3 most important must haves(if the player retires,the cap returns to the signing team cap). Close the cap circumventing issues. Include the floor in that. Make the floor cash paid out. Some of the teams will be getting increased revenue sharing. The money has to go somewhere.

Give teams an amnesty to dump bad contracts off the books with the system changes(AHL money and long term cheating contracts). Two year transition period. Like the NBA. You can't base 13-14 cap on a 60 game season in 12-13.

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11-16-2012, 07:31 AM
  #191
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A union of millionaires is different, though. These guys can afford to be without work for a little while, even though it hurts their egos a bit not to see their bank account grow as much as it does during the season.

I agree with certain things the NHLPA wants, I just don't like the way they're going about it. Too much of the season is getting scrapped for things that, in all honesty, aren't that far off from what the NHL is proposing.

To me, the next step needs to be mediation. I would take that Minnesota mediator up on his offer and allow him into the next few negotiations to see if anything can be gained. What's the worse that can happen? They strike a deal and drop the puck?


Last edited by Fugu: 11-16-2012 at 10:43 AM. Reason: quotes deleted post, which was OT
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11-16-2012, 07:51 AM
  #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
What has NHLPA accepted in these last three months of 'negotiations'? Name a single thing.

NHL has accepted more in revenue sharing, better conditions for the players when it comes to travel and medicals. They have moved significantly off their initial proposal (not surprising since it was an ambit claim). They have tried to save the season.

All Fehr is doing is tabling the same proposal over again claiming he has given up a billion dollars. Not real dollars of course. The NHLPA has offered to give up exactly zero of those. But in fantasy future dollars assuming growth that is very unrealistic at this stage, boy has the union been willing to give up a tonne of those.
The PA has played their strategy well to a certain degree. They got the league to move on several things. However, my problem with the PA strategy is exactly what you pointed out - the league's original proposal was never one that was expected to be accepted. How much of the waiting game was necessary to have the league move on several of the issues they have since moved on?

It's only my opinon but I don't think that much time was needed to accomplish what they've accomplished to date. Owners want a season, they just want the season at a more favourable split and to close up some contract issues and had the PA worked more quickly, they could've have gotten these league proposals much sooner. They could've kept the exact same strategy (delinkage) but still reciprocate with their own counters much sooner rather than claiming that proposals aren't like a ping pong match. Instead of saying that we'll meet but we don't want any preconditions, play along with the league. Request a meeting saying that you want to discuss things in the LEAGUE'S proposal and then while you're at the table, you throw your own notes down.

Again, I'm sure the owners want a season and if the PA had make smaller initiatives such as being more quick to respond and at least playing along with their agenda (without really doing so), I do think the league would have made their moves far sooner and instead of sitting here in the middle of November, we'd already have these things on the table perhaps back in October. Now the time is dwindling down. These owners have already maintained a lockout for one season. Now you want to keep playing the mind games and waiting game while the opportunity for both sides to make money is being pissed away. The PA are pretty ballsy to think that the league has too much to lose this time around that the strategy of frustrating them will make them crack rather than piss them off. We'll have to see how that works out for them.

The details of their strategy were done well, it's how they've planned the timeline of all of this that I find underwhelming and bordering on failure.

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11-16-2012, 08:02 AM
  #193
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Why would the league want a 2 week moratorium? So that they can start booking Holiday shows in their arenas. As of now they can't book anything for December because the union will throw it in their face that they are not planning on playing no matter what.

With a 2 week moratorium it takes us to December 1. Would still need atleast a week of negotiatuing and then training camp so the season would probably start best case January 1. Owners can make some money by booking the empty arenas for Holiday shows.

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11-16-2012, 08:04 AM
  #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morguee View Post
Why would the league want a 2 week moratorium? So that they can start booking Holiday shows in their arenas. As of now they can't book anything for December because the union will throw it in their face that they are not planning on playing no matter what.

With a 2 week moratorium it takes us to December 1. Would still need atleast a week of negotiatuing and then training camp so the season would probably start best case January 1. Owners can make some money by booking the empty arenas for Holiday shows.
IMO, they are banking on Fehr taking this to his membership and them demanding him get back into the negotiating room.

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11-16-2012, 08:06 AM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Morguee View Post
Why would the league want a 2 week moratorium? So that they can start booking Holiday shows in their arenas. As of now they can't book anything for December because the union will throw it in their face that they are not planning on playing no matter what.

With a 2 week moratorium it takes us to December 1. Would still need atleast a week of negotiatuing and then training camp so the season would probably start best case January 1. Owners can make some money by booking the empty arenas for Holiday shows.
The simple answer is that it's a blatant ploy. The league is banking on the fact that players are getting antsy, and by indicating that you can afford to take a few weeks away to just "break", you're signalling that this lockout isn't killing you.

It's basically like not returning a call from your girlfriend for a few days. It's a ploy, and an obvious one.

And let's hope it works.

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11-16-2012, 08:36 AM
  #196
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There is too much self entitlement among unions at a time where globalization and recession are threatening many companies.

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11-16-2012, 08:37 AM
  #197
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There is too much self entitlement among unions at a time where globalization and recession are threatening many companies.
Only the NHL has seen revenues go up during this time, so I'm not sure what relevancy your point has.

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11-16-2012, 08:38 AM
  #198
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I hope the PA doesn't agree not to talk for 2 weeks, and then both sides don't get back to negotiating anyway. Just make the whole thing really weird and absurd.

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11-16-2012, 08:41 AM
  #199
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It seems to me like this - from the very beginning:

Owners: All of us have to make money. But we don't want to lower Toronto's profit so that Phoenix, Florida, Minnesota, Nashville, Columbus are profitable. We put the teams in those places, but that wasn't a mistake. NO. All the teams need to make profits. So, the players have to be paid less in salaries, and going forward, have less chance to cash in on the big contracts so that the challenged teams can make money. Most franchises are not increasing in value anymore, so we need to have profit every year, rather than thinking we can make it up by selling the team...

Players: Not our fault there are teams in challenged markets. The owners chose to expand so they could pocket the bucks. The owners have a history of being less than honest, and won't even admit that some of these expansion teams are their own doing. So, why should we trust their numbers. Hey, why should we trust them at all??? If the teams can't make money, then move them, or change the cap/floor gap or have revenue sharing. That's your problem, not ours. And, while we are talking about - we need some choice in where we work. We shouldn't have to give that up....


AND, neither side would yield. So, it's about control. It's about mistrust. It's about each side denying that they are part of the problem. And, it will continue that way a long time...

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11-16-2012, 08:57 AM
  #200
cbcwpg
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Don't meet and don't talk for two weeks OR meet and just stare at each other for 2 weeks....

Makes no difference. No hockey, nothing going to be solved.

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