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2012 CBA Discussion Part IV (Lockout talk here)

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Old
11-15-2012, 07:48 PM
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BergyMeister View Post
Bettman proposes a 2 week moratorium...so pretty much SOP for the negotiations.
So he can look for a new job. He would make a perfect Pee-wee Herman stand in.

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Old
11-15-2012, 07:56 PM
  #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Make-Believe View Post
One thing I love about ya, dude... You're willing to put the effort in.

I still say that the primary argument from the NHL's side of the issue, is that few teams are actually profitable. And that part of the reason that some see the revenue they do is because of a willingness to spend greater than the floor.

Where anything I've proposed differs from what I've heard, is that the players' cut in HRR percentage DIRECTLY ALLOCATES toward revenue-share. I think that it's critical and addresses both sides' positions on the subject.
You know, I like to look at all data and facts as well as analyze them. I like to know the how and why of things.
I think the NHL's primary argument is wrong and the numbers (according to Forbes) back me up. 9 teams this year, 6 over the CBA lost money. That is with the way the owners spent.

I agree that spending more (wisely) can help increase revenue. Too many teams however are not spending wisely.

I don't think they need that much more revenue sharing especially after getting to 50%. $220M or wherever they are at now is pretty good. The players are giving up a lot by going from 57% to 50%. $246M/year over 10 years at 5% revenue growth with the players' version of make whole. They would be at almost $400M of revenue sharing if you took everything the players are giving up and adding it to what they already share.

I think each owner needs to take more responsibility for his team. It shouldn't just come out of the players or the rich owners.

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Old
11-15-2012, 08:00 PM
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMiller View Post
What do GM's make now compared to 05?
What do coaches make now compared to 05?
Whats the average of assistant coaches and staff been since 05?

I went looking, but couldn't find anything.

---Edit-


2011-2012 salary followed by their 2008-2009 salary

Gary Bettman, Commissioner: $7,983,753 - $7,230,783 (3.7mil before the last time he locked out the league)

Bill Daly, Deputy commissioner: $2,856,431 - $1,910,402

John Collins, Chief operating officer: $2,315,455 - $878,226

Colin Campbell, Senior vice president: $2,050,743 - $1,389,142

Craig Harnett, Chief financial officer: $1,544,084 - $938,367

David Zimmerman, General counsel: $975,037 - $577,394

Joseph DeSousa, Executive VP, finance: $876,681 - $520,299

Michael Murphy, Senior VP, hockey operations: $711,119 - $440,317

Stephen Walkom** Director of officiating: $474,601 - $488,736

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2010/07/20100712/This-Weeks-News/Nhls-Legal-Costs-Soar-Bettmans-Pay-Tops-$7M.aspx

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nhl/stor...y-lockout-2012

Those are some pretty hefty raises- in just three years- for running a league into the ground.
Yeah - if the owners are so bad off why aren't there limits on these guys pay? Why are they allowing Bettman to lead them in another negotiation?

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Old
11-15-2012, 08:07 PM
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjaustin77 View Post
You know, I like to look at all data and facts as well as analyze them. I like to know the how and why of things.
I think the NHL's primary argument is wrong and the numbers (according to Forbes) back me up. 9 teams this year, 6 over the CBA lost money. That is with the way the owners spent.

I agree that spending more (wisely) can help increase revenue. Too many teams however are not spending wisely.

I don't think they need that much more revenue sharing especially after getting to 50%. $220M or wherever they are at now is pretty good. The players are giving up a lot by going from 57% to 50%. $246M/year over 10 years at 5% revenue growth with the players' version of make whole. They would be at almost $400M of revenue sharing if you took everything the players are giving up and adding it to what they already share.

I think each owner needs to take more responsibility for his team. It shouldn't just come out of the players or the rich owners.
Nah, I think it should be a pool. And I don't think that 50/50 is necessary either.

A simple 8% cut in salaries (and caps and yadda yadda) DIRECTLY allocated to revenue share (with everything else staying the same as in the previous CBA) makes it a 52/48 split and gives $312M to the pool. $10M to each team, the rest is on them to figure out how to best be profitable.

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Old
11-15-2012, 08:21 PM
  #155
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Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger
Daly: "unfortunately, we have determined we are involved with Union leadership that has no genuine interest in reaching an agreement."

Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger
Daly: "Regardless of what we propose or how we suggest to compromise the answer is "no," At some pt you have to say "enough is enough".


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Old
11-15-2012, 09:19 PM
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kate08 View Post
Really? This doesn't strike you as an extremely black and white view of the situation?



I haven't seen anyone say that they hate the players, just varying degrees of disagreement with how members of the NHLPA are handling the lockout. You're drawing the conclusion that people who don't agree with players going to Europe, or disagree with some of the stances the PA is taking, must hate the players.

IMO the PA, as a group, is being hypocritical by talking about solidarity but showing none. In terms of my personal values, I absolutely cannot stand that. That is the biggest issue I have with the players this time around, but it doesn't mean that I hate them.

From your posts, it seems like you're saying you either stand with the players or you can't really be a Bruins fan because how can you root for the Bruins if the team is comprised of all of these yucky jerks? To me, that's the definition of looking at it in black and white.
AS I SAID:

Quote:
Love the game and hate the players? (Not talking about the lockout, but in general.) Sure, I guess it's possible, I mean, we see it a lot, right? I just think it must not be much fun. How can you enjoy a team's success if you think the players are a bunch of jerks?
Again, to reiterate, I'm not talking about the lockout specifically. I'm talking in general terms.

When someone calls the players "fat and happy," this isn't a sudden turn because of the lockout. This is a long-held attitude. There are plenty of people who don't care about the players at best, hold them in contempt, or, at worst, appear to loathe or hate them, which strikes me as odd, and I have trouble understanding it. Apologies if that's difficult to comprehend. For me, personally, I don't enjoy sports unless I like the guys I root for.

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Old
11-15-2012, 09:28 PM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
AS I SAID:



Again, to reiterate, I'm not talking about the lockout specifically. I'm talking in general terms.

When someone calls the players "fat and happy," this isn't a sudden turn because of the lockout. This is a long-held attitude. There are plenty of people who don't care about the players at best, hold them in contempt, or, at worst, appear to loathe or hate them, which strikes me as odd, and I have trouble understanding it. Apologies if that's difficult to comprehend. For me, personally, I don't enjoy sports unless I like the guys I root for.
It's not difficult to comprehend, I just think it's crazy. I can think of 2 or three posters that seem to hate players OUTSIDE OF THE CONTEXT OF THE LOCKOUT.

As an aside, I really wish your posts weren't so condescending. You have a lot of interesting things to say, but present them in a really nasty way a lot of the time. It makes it hard to have a discussion, or even want to have a discussion. Oh well.

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Old
11-15-2012, 09:41 PM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kate08 View Post
It's not difficult to comprehend, I just think it's crazy. I can think of 2 or three posters that seem to hate players OUTSIDE OF THE CONTEXT OF THE LOCKOUT.

As an aside, I really wish your posts weren't so condescending. You have a lot of interesting things to say, but present them in a really nasty way a lot of the time. It makes it hard to have a discussion, or even want to have a discussion. Oh well.
Sorry, I get irritated. I'm not a very patient person.

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Old
11-15-2012, 10:29 PM
  #159
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There is so much blame to go around now for both sides. They should all be ashamed of themselves, but they're not. And we all suffer. We are the only ones who pay the real price. I don't feel bad for millionaires and billionaires. Screw them all.:

And I truly believe that the owners have already decided to tank the season. They want blood once again from the players union and have lost perspective. Disgraceful.

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Old
11-15-2012, 10:32 PM
  #160
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I don't know what's more frustrating

a) the lockout itself (i.e. no hockey)
b) the fact that management caused the problems (by over-spending and signing guys to super-long contracts in order to circumvent the cap that they wanted) after agreeing to what was perceived as a Owner-friendly CBA
c) that they locked the players out rather than playing while negotiating
d) the fact that they keep throwing out their current calculated percentage which includes the make-whole as part of the number and complaining that it's not a 50/50 deal
e) the fact that they stand there claiming that they negotiated contracts in good faith and then don't want to honor them.
f) the fact that they want to take a break rather than continuing to negotiate

No....I think it's that I want my damn autographed stick.

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Old
11-15-2012, 10:37 PM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5Minutes4Fighting View Post
No....I think it's that I want my damn autographed stick.
Oh you'll get it alright...in 10 short months. Which is the next time you'll see live NHL hockey. And you'll be able to sit anywhere you want in the venue. Cause 50% of the seats will be empty.

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Old
11-15-2012, 10:39 PM
  #162
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...

****ing ******.

******* chewing father ****ers.

What the H? This is a bunch of malarkey.

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Old
11-15-2012, 10:48 PM
  #163
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"We believe that it is more likely that we will make progress if we meet than if we don’t. So we are ready to meet. If indeed they do not want to meet, it will be at least the third time in the last three months that they have shut down the dialogue, saying they will not meet unless the players meet their preconditions. What does that tell you about their interest in resolving this?”
Via AP, Steve Fehr on Bettman's "break" proposal.

the man has a point.

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Old
11-15-2012, 11:58 PM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looch View Post
Oh you'll get it alright...in 10 short months. Which is the next time you'll see live NHL hockey. And you'll be able to sit anywhere you want in the venue. Cause 50% of the seats will be empty.
You may be right. But if you buy low early on those after xmas games next year, I think you will make a killing.
If the year gets cancelled will you really give up some of your tix?
Oh yeah, I forgot this was a lockout thread... Bettman bad, Fehr bad, Owners bad, Players not as bad, Fans good.

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Old
11-16-2012, 05:30 AM
  #165
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all through this there has been a thought in the back of my head that they'll come to some half-assed compromise that doesn't guarantee that we do the same thing in six years.

i don't think there's going to be a season.

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Old
11-16-2012, 06:32 AM
  #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
AS I SAID:



Again, to reiterate, I'm not talking about the lockout specifically. I'm talking in general terms.

When someone calls the players "fat and happy," this isn't a sudden turn because of the lockout. This is a long-held attitude. There are plenty of people who don't care about the players at best, hold them in contempt, or, at worst, appear to loathe or hate them, which strikes me as odd, and I have trouble understanding it. Apologies if that's difficult to comprehend. For me, personally, I don't enjoy sports unless I like the guys I root for.
There are some posters who like individual players and some who hold the team in higher regard. Personally, I would trade any or every player on the Bruins to make them better.

So yes, I will loathe a player when he makes a mistake that costs the team a win. I don't know these players personally and I sure as heck don't pay money to see Seguin or Bergeron, I go to see the Bruins as a whole.

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Old
11-16-2012, 06:34 AM
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladyfan View Post
Take in couple of Providence B's games.

I didn't think it would come to this either.

A big F YOU to all in charge who let it get this bad.

I am really starting to miss watching the games. I miss seeing the folks at the Gahden...I miss seeing the B's. I am bored and angry.

There is no good excuse for this . There will be NHL games again and this could have and should have been resolved months ago. Stupid men with their big egos .
I'm going to the game tonight against the monarchs and plan on going to a few more games over the season. Even if they come back. Rather watch kids or even career ahlers playing for a shot or just the love of the game. Plus theres like 3 fights a game and its just a shootout at times it seems.

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11-16-2012, 07:18 AM
  #168
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Just got the October Episodes of New Japan Pro Wrestling. I am convinced there will be no hockey this year. I'll be watching Tanahashi instead of Bergeron. Thanks for nothing NHL and NHLPA.

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11-16-2012, 07:19 AM
  #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morris Wanchuk View Post
There are some posters who like individual players and some who hold the team in higher regard. Personally, I would trade any or every player on the Bruins to make them better.

So yes, I will loathe a player when he makes a mistake that costs the team a win. I don't know these players personally and I sure as heck don't pay money to see Seguin or Bergeron, I go to see the Bruins as a whole.
Problem here is certain people never find fault with a player at any time, no matter how bad they **** up. People actually stuck up for Marchand and Lucic when they said it was hard to get up for the play-offs..or they were "tired".. Or stuck up for Krejci when he was dogging it and the coach dropped him to the third line.... It is possible to be critical and still love the players and the team.

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Old
11-16-2012, 07:24 AM
  #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rudos1 View Post
Just got the October Episodes of New Japan Pro Wrestling. I am convinced there will be no hockey this year. I'll be watching Tanahashi instead of Bergeron. Thanks for nothing NHL and NHLPA.
Have you read any of the recent Chris Beniot books? Great stuff in there about the workings of wrestling in Japan...

Tigermask was still my all time favorite, Jushin Liger a close second.....




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11-16-2012, 07:52 AM
  #171
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All signs to the NHL not having a season this year. Great. I think the players and owners are underestimating how pissed the hockey fans are going to be. They think the previous missed season was long gone out of the memories of the fans....it isnt. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. As they sit there arguing over billions that "future income" they are planning on counting is dropping dramatically by the second because fans are pissed now. The players/owners are dramatically underestimating the wave of backlash that coming their way.

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Old
11-16-2012, 07:55 AM
  #172
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All signs to the NHL not having a season this year. Great. I think the players and owners are underestimating how pissed the hockey fans are going to be. They think the previous missed season was long gone out of the memories of the fans....it isnt. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. As they sit there arguing over billions that "future income" they are planning on counting is dropping dramatically by the second because fans are pissed now. The players/owners are dramatically underestimating the wave of backlash that coming their way.
this will actually be lockout/strike #3 under Bettman. Angry or not, within short order, fans in hockey markets will return in droves....that's my prediction anyways

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11-16-2012, 07:55 AM
  #173
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NHL seems to be playing by the NBA's script... they will push to see what they get.. however, I don't see how the majority of players or owners want to not have a season.

Look at the NBA, they started on Christmas, played a shortened season, and by the time the finals rolled around no one remembered the lockout.

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Old
11-16-2012, 07:58 AM
  #174
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Originally Posted by ODAAT View Post
this will actually be lockout/strike #3 under Bettman. Angry or not, within short order, fans in hockey markets will return in droves....that's my prediction anyways
Agreed. The NHL has a limited fan base that will go out and watch the games. Once it is settled I will order Center Ice and get my Devils-Bruins, Rangers-Bruins tickets. I don't take this personal. I also don't miss it, as of now..but when Janauary roills around and there is nothing on, I would think I will.

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11-16-2012, 07:58 AM
  #175
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Originally Posted by ODAAT View Post
this will actually be lockout/strike #3 under Bettman. Angry or not, within short order, fans in hockey markets will return in droves....that's my prediction anyways
They'll return.. but you gotta think when they come back for 2 or 3 years its gonna be pretty brutal. I can see season ticket holders around the league not renewing at the sth lists going down in a lot of markets. **** i'm giving up my tickets after this probabley. They both don't give a good god damn about my hard working money that i stupidly paid them.

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