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What are the chances the Leafs will honor Mats Sundin for making the Hall of Fame?

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Old
11-13-2012, 04:35 PM
  #76
DirtyDion03
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Originally Posted by shack23 View Post
Correct you are, people that don't get it, won't get it. i won't go into a long spiel about the quality of players that a team has to support it's so called franchise player. Lets take Shane Doan as an example. Now i don't know of anyone that would suggest that Doan is hall of fame material, but if he had spent his entire career in Toronto instead of Sundin it would have been a grand slam. Doan led his team in scoring 7 seasons in a row, is he worthy of the same adulation that Sundin received for doing the same thing ? Sundin was blown into something much larger than he was BECAUSE he played in Toronto. There is a long parallel with Sundin's and Doan's career's, both led their teams in scoring for several consecutive seasons. Maybe if Doan had Kaberle and McCabe on the point he would have scored at a better rate than Sundin, it's all relative. The only difference i see in these two, is that Sundin scored at a better clip BECAUSE he had the players that you mentioned above to support him, Doan had NOTHING ! Oh yea, and Doan didn't turn around and ***** in the fans faces when things didn't go his way. Personally i don't get too excited about Doan as a player, but he could have done at least as well as Sundin had he had the same opportunities and support that Sundin had.
Shane Doan has put up no where close to the numbers Sundin has for his country. It's not just what he did with the Leafs, its his staple for European hockey all over the World. It goes much larger then the NHL. Shane Doan has put up no where as much numbers as Sundin is. Sundin hasn't played with talent and either has Doan, but Sundin still produced because he's that much better.. Matter of fact Sundin produced for Toronto until his last season here at a PPG clip. Doan isn't anywhere close and isn't leading his team in scoring this year.

Shane Doan: Total W-Cup 6gp 1g 1a 2pts
Total WC 49gp 13g 20a 33pts
Total Olympic 6gp 2g 1a 3pts

Mats Sundin: Total W-Cup 8gp 5g 8a 13pts
Total WC 35gp 18g 26a 44pts
Total Olympic 16gp11g 9a 20pts


And it's not even close.


Last edited by DirtyDion03: 11-13-2012 at 04:42 PM.
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Old
11-13-2012, 06:07 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by DirtyDion03 View Post
Shane Doan has put up no where close to the numbers Sundin has for his country. It's not just what he did with the Leafs, its his staple for European hockey all over the World. It goes much larger then the NHL. Shane Doan has put up no where as much numbers as Sundin is. Sundin hasn't played with talent and either has Doan, but Sundin still produced because he's that much better.. Matter of fact Sundin produced for Toronto until his last season here at a PPG clip. Doan isn't anywhere close and isn't leading his team in scoring this year.

Shane Doan: Total W-Cup 6gp 1g 1a 2pts
Total WC 49gp 13g 20a 33pts
Total Olympic 6gp 2g 1a 3pts

Mats Sundin: Total W-Cup 8gp 5g 8a 13pts
Total WC 35gp 18g 26a 44pts
Total Olympic 16gp11g 9a 20pts


And it's not even close.
I love Shane Doan. Great player. Shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as Mats Sundin.

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11-13-2012, 07:03 PM
  #78
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He already had his night

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11-13-2012, 07:05 PM
  #79
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Then again I'm sure he'll have another in a few years... da Leafs love their ceremonys.

I seem to remember a few years ago there was Wendel Clark night.. then the same year (Or maybe one after) they had "80s night" featuring Wendel Clark

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11-14-2012, 05:26 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by DirtyDion03 View Post
Shane Doan has put up no where close to the numbers Sundin has for his country. It's not just what he did with the Leafs, its his staple for European hockey all over the World. It goes much larger then the NHL. Shane Doan has put up no where as much numbers as Sundin is. Sundin hasn't played with talent and either has Doan, but Sundin still produced because he's that much better.. Matter of fact Sundin produced for Toronto until his last season here at a PPG clip. Doan isn't anywhere close and isn't leading his team in scoring this year.

Shane Doan: Total W-Cup 6gp 1g 1a 2pts
Total WC 49gp 13g 20a 33pts
Total Olympic 6gp 2g 1a 3pts

Mats Sundin: Total W-Cup 8gp 5g 8a 13pts
Total WC 35gp 18g 26a 44pts
Total Olympic 16gp11g 9a 20pts


And it's not even close.
What are you talking about kid ? Who gives a flying fart about international hockey ? I thought that we were talking about the Toronto Maple Leafs. I don't lay down my hard earned money to watch European figure skating, It's sissy hockey at best. I'm just saying that if Doan would have had Kaberle and McCabe on the points, especially on the power play, that he could have easily scored the extra ten points a season to bring his season totals on a par with $undin's. As a side note, Doan isn't leading his team in scoring THIS year because.... wait for it.... THERE IS NO HOCKEY THIS YEAR !

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11-14-2012, 10:30 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by FakeKidPoker View Post
He already had his night
That's right, Mats was already honoured for his service as a Maple Leaf by MLSE.

He is currently the Leafs All-time points leader.

The HOF induction was an honouring for his Hockey play both NHL and Internationally and that's what this recent event was intended to acknowledge.

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11-14-2012, 11:41 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Pi View Post
Mats Sundin's best seasons came in Quebec when he wasn't even in his prime
Those weren't his prime years, those were seasons that were easy to score in.

1993 = 80-47-67-114 (11th in points, 17th in goals)
2002 = 82-41-39-80 (4th in points, T-2nd in goals)

1993 = 7.25 goals per NHL game
2002 = 5.24 goals per NHL game

2002 was his career season, not 1993.

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Originally Posted by Pi View Post
If anyone ever feels that Sundin didn't do enough or had talented wingers...please go back and look at who he played with.

Sundin could have had 1500+ points IMO if he didn't retire early and had quality wingers during the time he played. Looking back, I'm quite shocked we made it to the playoffs as many times as we did with him and the ECF twice.
Sundin played 13 seasons with the Leafs, cracking the top-60 in goalscoring every season. That feat was also achieved 20 times by other Leafs during that time period.

NHL Overall goalscoring rank/ player / year / Team
14 Berezin 99 Toronto
20 Mogilny 03 Toronto
22 Andreychuk 95 Toronto
22 Hoglund 00 Toronto
25 Roberts 04 Toronto
29 Gartner 96 Toronto
30 W. Clark 97 Toronto
33 Thomas 99 Toronto
34 Gilmour 96 Toronto
37 Thomas 00 Toronto
43 Berezin 00 Toronto
48 Roberts 01 Toronto
50 Andreychuk/Clark 96 Toronto
54 Antropov 08 Toronto
55 D. King 99 Toronto
55 Nieuwendyk 04 Toronto
56 Tucker 02 Toronto
57 Tucker 06 Toronto
58 Mogilny 02 Toronto
60 Berezin 97 Toronto

For a total of 33 times in 13 years or a little over 2.5 per year.
The average team would have only have had 2.0 per year.

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11-14-2012, 12:45 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by shack23 View Post
What are you talking about kid ? Who gives a flying fart about international hockey ? I thought that we were talking about the Toronto Maple Leafs. I don't lay down my hard earned money to watch European figure skating, It's sissy hockey at best. I'm just saying that if Doan would have had Kaberle and McCabe on the points, especially on the power play, that he could have easily scored the extra ten points a season to bring his season totals on a par with $undin's. As a side note, Doan isn't leading his team in scoring THIS year because.... wait for it.... THERE IS NO HOCKEY THIS YEAR !
We were talking about Mats Sundin in general. So you're saying 2 defensemen helped increase Sundin's numbers that much? It's not Sundin's fault Doan is on an expansion team that doesn't have the funding to ice the proper team. The point is, either way, Sundin put up the numbers and Doan didn't. Can't even compare the two TBH.

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11-15-2012, 06:49 AM
  #84
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So what's the prevailing opinion of this thread. I just want to make sure my opinion is in line with everyone else.

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11-15-2012, 08:10 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by DirtyDion03 View Post
We were talking about Mats Sundin in general. So you're saying 2 defensemen helped increase Sundin's numbers that much? It's not Sundin's fault Doan is on an expansion team that doesn't have the funding to ice the proper team. The point is, either way, Sundin put up the numbers and Doan didn't. Can't even compare the two TBH.
Of course, don't be so obtuse. How can you possibly deny that McCabe and Kaberle couldn't have added at least 10 points a season to Doan's totals. look at Doan's point totals over the last 10 seasons and add 10 points to them, Not a hell of a lot of difference, plus Doan plays a gritty, in your face game, the kind that Sundin would always shy away. I can't deny that Mats was a great marketing device for m.l.s.e. and took full financial advantage of his marketing, advertisement and endorsement opportunities. But his leadership abilities ended there. When he was faced with a trade offer he panicked about the notion of losing millions of dollars from these deals. I think that Mats really did want to stay in Toronto, although for a much different reason than most fans want to admit. Was he really in it just for the money ? his subsequent actions would seem to confirm that.

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11-15-2012, 08:14 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by shack23 View Post
Of course, don't be so obtuse. How can you possibly deny that McCabe and Kaberle couldn't have added at least 10 points a season to Doan's totals. look at Doan's point totals over the last 10 seasons and add 10 points to them, Not a hell of a lot of difference, plus Doan plays a gritty, in your face game, the kind that Sundin would always shy away. I can't deny that Mats was a great marketing device for m.l.s.e. and took full financial advantage of his marketing, advertisement and endorsement opportunities. But his leadership abilities ended there. When he was faced with a trade offer he panicked about the notion of losing millions of dollars from these deals. I think that Mats really did want to stay in Toronto, although for a much different reason than most fans want to admit. Was he really in it just for the money ? his subsequent actions would seem to confirm that.
So his greed is based on your self rationalization and speculation? Hmm Interesting.

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11-15-2012, 10:25 AM
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Of course, don't be so obtuse. How can you possibly deny that McCabe and Kaberle couldn't have added at least 10 points a season to Doan's totals. look at Doan's point totals over the last 10 seasons and add 10 points to them, Not a hell of a lot of difference, plus Doan plays a gritty, in your face game, the kind that Sundin would always shy away. I can't deny that Mats was a great marketing device for m.l.s.e. and took full financial advantage of his marketing, advertisement and endorsement opportunities. But his leadership abilities ended there. When he was faced with a trade offer he panicked about the notion of losing millions of dollars from these deals. I think that Mats really did want to stay in Toronto, although for a much different reason than most fans want to admit. Was he really in it just for the money ? his subsequent actions would seem to confirm that.
I hope you find something you like on the menu. You're clearly out to lunch with this.

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11-15-2012, 10:51 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by shack23 View Post
Correct you are, people that don't get it, won't get it. i won't go into a long spiel about the quality of players that a team has to support it's so called franchise player. Lets take Shane Doan as an example. Now i don't know of anyone that would suggest that Doan is hall of fame material, but if he had spent his entire career in Toronto instead of Sundin it would have been a grand slam. Doan led his team in scoring 7 seasons in a row, is he worthy of the same adulation that Sundin received for doing the same thing ? Sundin was blown into something much larger than he was BECAUSE he played in Toronto. There is a long parallel with Sundin's and Doan's career's, both led their teams in scoring for several consecutive seasons. Maybe if Doan had Kaberle and McCabe on the point he would have scored at a better rate than Sundin, it's all relative. The only difference i see in these two, is that Sundin scored at a better clip BECAUSE he had the players that you mentioned above to support him, Doan had NOTHING ! Oh yea, and Doan didn't turn around and ***** in the fans faces when things didn't go his way. Personally i don't get too excited about Doan as a player, but he could have done at least as well as Sundin had he had the same opportunities and support that Sundin had.
The fact that you are comparing Doan to Sundin shows you know absolutely nothing about the vast difference in the level of skill between these two players.

Seriously?! DOAN!? Wow.

Also...let's not forget this is the HHOF not the NHL Hall of Fame.

Sundin is a winner for Sweden throughout the years. He was captain of a team that also included guys like Forsberg and Lidstrom. Sundin is a top 5-10 Swede of all time and an elite player.

Let me know when Doan scores a goal to win Olympic gold for Canada or captains them at any level.

Doan has Yandle and OEL, also had Whitney putting up PPG..Hanzal scoring 30, good goalie, coach and defensive system.

I don't even know why I am arguing Doan vs. Sundin
----

Also...Wendel Clark is probably one of the most loved Leafs because of the way he played the game. Tell me why Wendel Clark isn't in the HHOF?

You're saying that every player that plays for T.O. is in the HHOF. Why isn't Wendel Clark? Can you please explain that to me?


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11-15-2012, 01:21 PM
  #89
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Also...Wendel Clark is probably one of the most loved Leafs because of the way he played the game. Tell me why Wendel Clark isn't in the HHOF?

You're saying that every player that plays for T.O. is in the HHOF. Why isn't Wendel Clark? Can you please explain that to me?
How about other for Maple Leafs like Curtis Joseph or Eric Lindros. Next year Joseph is eligable however I can't see him getting in for a while. However I think with Pavel Bure getting in then Lindros should be in next year.

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11-15-2012, 02:21 PM
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The Sundin for Lindros rumours are (somewhat) legit. One of my best friends was a teacher at Delasalle, and the Leafs practiced there, so he saw alot of their practices and would always speak to the reporters for info (this is 12 years ago or longer so we didnt go on message boards at the time for rumours).
I remember him clearly stating that Clarke was asking for Sundin, straight up for Lindros. So even though there is no way to know the details, it was out there at some point.

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11-15-2012, 05:28 PM
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This is going to be an extremely long ass rant, just a warning . It's funny how people are still bitter about Sundin. There is nothing at all that could make sense to hate on the guy. There are so many arguments FOR Sundin as opposed to against him. Those who think Sundin ****ed us over literally do not see professional athletes as human beings. They must do everything to please us as fans and leave nothing on the table for themselves. As soon as he thinks about doing something that can benefit him, he's an ***. What a total ****ing joke.

First of all, we were not going to get ANYTHING of substantial worth for a 36/37 year old guy who basically was going to retire in a year. 80% of you on this board don't want to give up, for a 33 year old elite goalie in Luongo, ANYTHING of substantial worth and you think that we were going to get something that could've changed the future of this team for a considerably older and washed up Mats Sundin?

Secondly, him not waiving his NTC was his right. He fully deserved that no trade clause. Haven't you ever considered that you always try to keep your star players? It certainly doesn't hurt to have a HoF #1 centerman holding your team together. In terms of the Muskoka 5, the only one that could have garnered anything back was McCabe (or Kubina), and in the end, all he got us was Mike Van Ryn and a pick. Real big return. Why doesn't anyone ever blame Kaberle for saying no to that potential Carter + 1st for Kabs trade? (not suggesting Kabs is an ***, loved him, but that trade would've gave us a "DAMN SON" return). Each one of the Muskoka 5 could take the blame for this, but it seems like Sundin's the perfect scapegoat. Give me a break. The NTC was given to him by JFJ, if you absolutely need to blame someone (don't even get why you have to), wouldn't you look at the guy who gave it to him first?

3rd, you say he didn't accomplish anything with this team. A Stanley Cup requires a team, not one player. When he's the only forward that was considered anything close to elite on this team from the 2000s onward, you know the GM's the one to look at. Who was ever close to Sundin's level of play that got paired with him? One single season of Alex Mogilny. All those "all-stars" that we got were way past their primes and looking to just have their name in the Leaf history books. As someone else pointed out, when your 2nd and 3rd best scorers are defenseman, you know there's a problem with this team. You put Ovechkin on this team with those people and we still don't get into the playoffs.

4th It's not like Sundin went, nope, I hate you guys so I'm going to stay here. He had a life in Toronto, and given he had the full right to not want to completely relocate himself, he did just that. Also, Sundin wanted to stay, but Burke said no. Of course, he could have retired then and I think most people would've preferred that over him going to the Canucks, but he clearly felt he still had something in the tank. If you're offered 10 million to play for a team that could potentially win the Cup after you were kicked to the curb by the team you wanted to stay on and have been playing for the last 13 years, I think I'd go too.

The handful of you who think Sundin ****ed us over are bitter over nothing. You can't even prove to us how he ****ed us over. All you "fans" who think Sundin ****ed us over probably don't think consider him anything close to being as human as we are. Burke was not interested in bringing him back at all. When the team you want doesn't want you, you go for the next best thing. I'm more surprised he still respects us as opposed to treating us the same way Dave Keon does. We really didn't deserve to have a guy like Mats Sundin represent the blue and white for 13 years if the only thing you can remember is him leaving in a way that really wasn't all that bad as the way you make it out to be.

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11-16-2012, 07:51 AM
  #92
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I love Shane Doan. Great player. Shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as Mats Sundin.
Young man, there is a time and a place to express your love for a man. I am not a homophobic, but please someone throw a bucket of cold water on this guy !

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11-16-2012, 08:25 AM
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This board is self imploding under the weight of drawn out discussions over topics no one would normally give two s**ts about under normal conditions.

Yes he belongs.
Comparing Doan to Sundin is proposterous.

Go Leafs go....

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11-16-2012, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by mashedpotato View Post
This board is self imploding under the weight of drawn out discussions over topics no one would normally give two s**ts about under normal conditions.

Yes he belongs.
Comparing Doan to Sundin is proposterous.

Go Leafs go....
Can't say that i agree with your assessment there spud, It would seem quite possible that Doan could have put up a few more points with some of the players that Sundin had the fortune of playing with. It wouldn't have taken much for him to mirror Sundin's yearly totals, add to that the points that would be subtracted from Sundin's totals by playing with Pheonix and there you go. No hall of fame, just another brick in the wall.

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11-16-2012, 09:53 AM
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Can't say that i agree with your assessment there spud, It would seem quite possible that Doan could have put up a few more points with some of the players that Sundin had the fortune of playing with. It wouldn't have taken much for him to mirror Sundin's yearly totals, add to that the points that would be subtracted from Sundin's totals by playing with Pheonix and there you go. No hall of fame, just another brick in the wall.
Does the HHOF take just career statistics into account when considering candidates?

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11-16-2012, 09:59 AM
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Does the HHOF take just career statistics into account when considering candidates?
Well they sure as hell don't take loyalty, honesty and accountability in to account, that's for sure.

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11-16-2012, 10:02 AM
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Well they sure as hell don't take loyalty, honesty and accountability in to account, that's for sure.

Clarify what you mean please.

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11-16-2012, 10:09 AM
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Clarify what you mean please.
Too busy, just go over EVERY Sundin story posted on this Forum for the last six years.

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11-16-2012, 10:18 AM
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Clarify what you mean please.
Disputing Sundins loyalty is absurd, if he wasn't loyal his few detractors would have gotten their wish and he would have waived.

Shack(Baun) has always been confused by these facts.

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11-16-2012, 10:36 AM
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Disputing Sundins loyalty is absurd, if he wasn't loyal his few detractors would have gotten their wish and he would have waived.

Shack(Baun) has always been confused by these facts.
No sure what you mean by the Shack (Baun) comment. The ACC1224 (Mr. Bean) seems appropriate though

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