HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.

Vancouver-Winnipeg

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-14-2012, 11:38 AM
  #26
Grind
Stomacheache AllStar
 
Grind's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Manitoba
Posts: 4,139
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boondock View Post
I'm not going to debate the merits of either of the OP's, however I do see the first deal as being the closest in terms of value and organizational needs. But to say Edler and Buff are a wash is asinine. Edler is a far superior defenseman. Offensively they might be a wash but in terms of overall defensive ability Edler and Byfuglien shouldn't be mentioned in the same conversation.
I think the biggest issue on value comes to contract/etc.

Buffs locked up for 3-4 more years, Edlers on his way to UFA.

So either were trading 4 years of buff for one year of edler (which, even though edler is better, he's not THAT much better), or we trade 4 years of buff and resign edler. The issue being, if he's interested in signing in WPG, why bother with the trading an asset when we could just wait till he hits FA? Winnipegs not pushing for a cup next year, so we can get by one season without him if it means we can rope him at UFA and not lose buff.

that's why Winnipeg says no. I can see why Van would say no when looking at ability between the two, but remember, there's no risk of losing buff for 3 seasons, that's worth something, where as there's a risk of losing Edler next year.

I get it, an A+ D man for a B+ D man doesn't make sense, but that's not the whole story.

Your essential trading one guaranteed year of an A+ d man for 3 guaranteed years of an B+ D man, not quite the same as just trading an A+ for a B +.

Grind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-14-2012, 11:50 AM
  #27
Grind
Stomacheache AllStar
 
Grind's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Manitoba
Posts: 4,139
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
the underacknowledged thing going into next season (whenever that will be) is that we may need a RHS to replace salo. now, i'm not saying edler and garrison (both LHS) can't get it done on the PP. both have good hard shots-- and edler/ehrhoff has worked in the past.

another possibility for byfuglien is if edler/garrison works on the point, then byfuglien stands in front of the net on the PP and kesler slides down to the second unit, which would cut down on undue wear and tear for him, and possibly get the second unit back to the threat it was in '09-'10.

that said, i'm not crazy about adding an ES pylon to our blueline.
an ES pylon that gets points by the bucket. And to be fari, Buff is not useless in his own zone, he's actually decent. He's useless transitioning into his own zone, that's where he gets hosed.

Grind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-14-2012, 12:02 PM
  #28
Luck 6
\\_______
 
Luck 6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 7,273
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyLager View Post
He played the left with Campbell except for PP, and the 1040 interview was Bowness a couple days ago saying they would play him where he's comfortable (on the left). I think with an elite level shutdown guy, which Garrison has been the last two seasons, Edler should be fine on the right, as it shouldn't hinder his offense and Garrison should be able to cover the majority of lapses. I'm excited to see what that pairing is capable of.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v93pCQugsc8

Have a look at that video. I realize most of those are PP goals, but even on his ES goals he was on the right side for all of them except 1 by my count. Are you sure he didn't play the right at even strength? It's been a while now, but I remember many Florida fans telling me when he was first acquired that he could play either side fine, but was a bit better on the left.

Edler has not been very good at all on the right side in his stints there, although I wouldn't be opposed to trying it again now that he has a solid defensive partner.

Luck 6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-14-2012, 01:36 PM
  #29
StringerBell
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 10,000
vCash: 500
Pretty sure. That's what he said on his post-signing team1040 interview early July, and Florida fans have echoed it since the signing. Campbell played the left hand shot, right hand side PMD role that Ehrhoff did out here, and Garrison was his defensive rock on the left. I'd put more weight into Garrison, Bowness and Florida fans giving their thoughts than a highlight pack on youtube.

StringerBell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-14-2012, 01:57 PM
  #30
vadim sharifijanov
Registered User
 
vadim sharifijanov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 8,955
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grind View Post
an ES pylon that gets points by the bucket. And to be fari, Buff is not useless in his own zone, he's actually decent. He's useless transitioning into his own zone, that's where he gets hosed.
ah yes, the dreaded "gap control." bowness not happy.


vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-14-2012, 04:36 PM
  #31
Luck 6
\\_______
 
Luck 6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 7,273
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyLager View Post
Pretty sure. That's what he said on his post-signing team1040 interview early July, and Florida fans have echoed it since the signing. Campbell played the left hand shot, right hand side PMD role that Ehrhoff did out here, and Garrison was his defensive rock on the left. I'd put more weight into Garrison, Bowness and Florida fans giving their thoughts than a highlight pack on youtube.
While I don't disagree with you, I do remember doing my own research on the Florida board when we acquied him and I was left with the impression that he was quite comfortable on the right side. Garrison has admitted he's better on the left though. We've heard so many mixed things on this subject, it'd be nice to know once and for all. I remember Florida fans telling me he played the left next to Weaver two seasons ago, and I thought I remember being told he switched to the right next to Campbell last season. Hence, he has played both sides.

Luck 6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2012, 06:54 PM
  #32
King Woodballs
MVP! MVP! MVP!
 
King Woodballs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Your Mind
Posts: 32,148
vCash: 50
Yes to #1
No to #2

King Woodballs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2012, 01:18 AM
  #33
ahmon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 6,221
vCash: 500
I'm a canucks fan, and I take byfuglien over edler any day of the week.

The only downside is his motivation, and weight issues. So far its not stopping him to produce.

Byfuglien produces more than Edler.

While byfuglien is not a defensive wiz, what makes edler a good defensive dman?

Edler gets sheltered minutes, 60 percent offensive zone starts, and somehow he is only EVEN in +/- on a top team in the regular season. Yet byfuglien is a pylon for being - 8 on a much inferior team?
Edler is inconsistent as hell on defense.

And not to mention byfuglien offers an intriguing option to use as a forward and be use as a massing net screen and power forward.

ahmon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2012, 01:24 AM
  #34
Vankiller Whale
Maybe HE can score
 
Vankiller Whale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,239
vCash: 5555
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmon View Post
I'm a canucks fan, and I take byfuglien over edler any day of the week.

The only downside is his motivation, and weight issues. So far its not stopping him to produce.

Byfuglien produces more than Edler.

While byfuglien is not a defensive wiz, what makes edler a good defensive dman?

Edler gets sheltered minutes, 60 percent offensive zone starts, and somehow he is only EVEN in +/- on a top team in the regular season. Yet byfuglien is a pylon for being - 8 on a much inferior team?
Edler is inconsistent as hell on defense.

And not to mention byfuglien offers an intriguing option to use as a forward and be use as a massing net screen and power forward.
Byfuglien was paired with Enstrom. Edler was paired with a revolving door of injured defensemen. Edler is better defensively than Byfuglien, although Byfuglien certainly has more dynamic offensive abilities.

Vankiller Whale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2012, 01:33 AM
  #35
ahmon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 6,221
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Byfuglien was paired with Enstrom. Edler was paired with a revolving door of injured defensemen. Edler is better defensively than Byfuglien, although Byfuglien certainly has more dynamic offensive abilities.
unfortunately the role edler is used in is more for offense.

Ham-Juice plays against the teams top players.

edler gets 60 percent Offensive zone starts and huge pp time.

In that role, I would argue byfuglien makes a bigger impact.


Ham-Juice,
Garrison-Byfuglien

As a bonus, imagine in the playoffs, we can put byfuglien in front of the other teams net and cause chaos.

ahmon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2012, 01:35 AM
  #36
Vankiller Whale
Maybe HE can score
 
Vankiller Whale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,239
vCash: 5555
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmon View Post
unfortunately the role edler is used in is more for offense.

Ham-Juice plays against the teams top players.

edler gets 60 percent Offensive zone starts and huge pp time.

In that role, I would argue byfuglien makes a bigger impact.


As a bonus, imagine in the playoffs, we can put byfuglien in front of the other teams net and cause chaos.
I agree Byfuglien would be great for the playoffs and for getting under the other teams skin, which is part of the reason why I proposed the deal, but there's no question in my mind Edler is an all-round better defenseman, contracts aside.

Vankiller Whale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2012, 01:41 AM
  #37
ahmon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 6,221
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I agree Byfuglien would be great for the playoffs and for getting under the other teams skin, which is part of the reason why I proposed the deal, but there's no question in my mind Edler is an all-round better defenseman, contracts aside.
he might be more balanced, but not better. Edler doesn't have the dynamic offensive and physical presence that Byfuglien has.

And Edler's defensive game is shaky. I never understand where fellow canucks fan get the impression edler is good defensively.

Edler is better defensively than Byfuglien but the gap is not that big.

ahmon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2012, 03:38 AM
  #38
Flair Hay
Registered User
 
Flair Hay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,104
vCash: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmon View Post
he might be more balanced, but not better. Edler doesn't have the dynamic offensive and physical presence that Byfuglien has.

And Edler's defensive game is shaky. I never understand where fellow canucks fan get the impression edler is good defensively.

Edler is better defensively than Byfuglien but the gap is not that big.
Agreed. I'm now a Jets fan from Winnipeg and I was a Canucks fan first from high school in 01 until last year. I know how good Edler is when he's on his game. But Byfuglien at his best on defense is simply dominant.

Buff started off the season rough last year. Very inconsistent and had the legal issue combined with weight problems. But after that all blew over and he got used to the style Noel wanted him to play. He got a lot more consistent defensively in his own end and cut down on his bone headed decisions he's been known for. Not surprisingly, thats when his offense picked up. He's probably about at his peak offensively already, but he grew enough throughout the year in the playoff race to make me believe the best as a overall player is yet to come. He'll never be an above average guy in transition, but his physical advantage helps the whole team, and is probably their third best offensive weapon after Kane and Wheeler.

I love everything about Edler's game when he's on. He can run a PP exceptionally, and when he starts checking harder in the post season he really makes an impact on games. That said, he's not the kind of player that is wired to take control of a shift, or a game like Buff is.

Even if Edler was making the exact same coin for the same number of years as Buff, I'd still take the latter. It's actually very close to me, but Buff's game breaking ability with more room for improvement makes him the one on my team if I had to choose.

Flair Hay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2012, 09:29 AM
  #39
Luck 6
\\_______
 
Luck 6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 7,273
vCash: 500
This thread is hilarious. We really need the season to start. It seems people still have a sour taste in their mouths from Edler's horrible 5 game playoff performance against LA. Before that, he was known as a player who could elevate his game in the playoffs, don't forget that.

Do you guys remember how bad our PP was for the last ~50 games of last season? It was brutal, none of our typical PP scorers were producing. The result was the Sedins and Kesler having their worst season in years. Yet, despite that, Edler manages to put up 49 points from the back end (career high). How many points do you think Edler would have had if the PP would have clicked at it's usual pace all season? Or if the Sedins and Kesler would have scored closer to their usual pace? I think it would have been certainly possible for Edler to be in the high 50s in points given such a scenario.

Trading Edler is stupid, I can't put it lighter than that. He's played with a revolving door of different defensemen, none of which close to his calibur. Give him a solid partner and see what he can accomplish. It's widely recognized that defensemen often don't break out until late, most all-star defensemen weren't considered legit franchise calibur defensemen until their late 20's. Edler has 26 years old, we'd be stupid to move this guy before he puts it all together.

Luck 6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2012, 12:22 PM
  #40
Barney Gumble
Registered User
 
Barney Gumble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 19,815
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmon View Post
And Edler's defensive game is shaky. I never understand where fellow canucks fan get the impression edler is good defensively.

Edler is better defensively than Byfuglien but the gap is not that big.
Funny how I would've said the same about Bieksa before Hamhuis was acquired (and after Mitchell was gone from the team). I prefer to reserve judgement on Edler's defensive ability potential when his defensive partner isn't either Ehrhoff, an over the hill Salo, or Ballard (or other simliar player).


Last edited by Barney Gumble: 11-16-2012 at 12:32 PM.
Barney Gumble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2012, 05:35 PM
  #41
Flair Hay
Registered User
 
Flair Hay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,104
vCash: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
This thread is hilarious. We really need the season to start. It seems people still have a sour taste in their mouths from Edler's horrible 5 game playoff performance against LA. Before that, he was known as a player who could elevate his game in the playoffs, don't forget that.

Do you guys remember how bad our PP was for the last ~50 games of last season? It was brutal, none of our typical PP scorers were producing. The result was the Sedins and Kesler having their worst season in years. Yet, despite that, Edler manages to put up 49 points from the back end (career high). How many points do you think Edler would have had if the PP would have clicked at it's usual pace all season? Or if the Sedins and Kesler would have scored closer to their usual pace? I think it would have been certainly possible for Edler to be in the high 50s in points given such a scenario.

Trading Edler is stupid, I can't put it lighter than that. He's played with a revolving door of different defensemen, none of which close to his calibur. Give him a solid partner and see what he can accomplish. It's widely recognized that defensemen often don't break out until late, most all-star defensemen weren't considered legit franchise calibur defensemen until their late 20's. Edler has 26 years old, we'd be stupid to move this guy before he puts it all together.
Agree completely. Ive followed his career sonce Manitoba and he's gotten a bit more consistent overall every year. its not sexy to the rubes because he never had a true breakout year like some of the higher pedigree guys did. Edler could very well be a widely acknowledged top ten defenseman in the NHL from age 28-35 or so.

If people want to move Edler because he had a bad series against the Kings, they haven't followed his career very closely. Or maybe just really like living in the moment.. hehe.

If we're talking strictly about value though, I still take Buff by a small pube.

Flair Hay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2012, 09:28 PM
  #42
ahmon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 6,221
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
This thread is hilarious. We really need the season to start. It seems people still have a sour taste in their mouths from Edler's horrible 5 game playoff performance against LA. Before that, he was known as a player who could elevate his game in the playoffs, don't forget that.

Do you guys remember how bad our PP was for the last ~50 games of last season? It was brutal, none of our typical PP scorers were producing. The result was the Sedins and Kesler having their worst season in years. Yet, despite that, Edler manages to put up 49 points from the back end (career high). How many points do you think Edler would have had if the PP would have clicked at it's usual pace all season? Or if the Sedins and Kesler would have scored closer to their usual pace? I think it would have been certainly possible for Edler to be in the high 50s in points given such a scenario.

Trading Edler is stupid, I can't put it lighter than that. He's played with a revolving door of different defensemen, none of which close to his calibur. Give him a solid partner and see what he can accomplish. It's widely recognized that defensemen often don't break out until late, most all-star defensemen weren't considered legit franchise calibur defensemen until their late 20's. Edler has 26 years old, we'd be stupid to move this guy before he puts it all together.

So all you are saying is Edler produces 50 pts and is a big part of our PP, so why should we trade him for another dman that produces more and is even a bigger PP threat?

How many points do you think byfuglien would put up in edler's role?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Funny how I would've said the same about Bieksa before Hamhuis was acquired (and after Mitchell was gone from the team). I prefer to reserve judgement on Edler's defensive ability potential when his defensive partner isn't either Ehrhoff, an over the hill Salo, or Ballard (or other simliar player).
So we need to reserve judgement until he gets someone to cover for his mistakes like how hamhuis is covering for bieksa?

The fact that he needs someone good defensively to play with him shows how Edler is not great himself.


Last edited by ahmon: 11-16-2012 at 09:34 PM.
ahmon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2012, 09:33 PM
  #43
ahmon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 6,221
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhay1987 View Post

Even if Edler was making the exact same coin for the same number of years as Buff, I'd still take the latter. It's actually very close to me, but Buff's game breaking ability with more room for improvement makes him the one on my team if I had to choose.
Pretty much this.

The only negative about swapping edler for byfuglien, is that edler seems like a good citizen, gets away from trouble, and is low maintenance.
Byfuglien is much more of a risk to do something stupid that will affect his perfomance on ice.

ahmon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2012, 10:38 PM
  #44
sully1410
Registered User
 
sully1410's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Turner Valley, Alta.
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,126
vCash: 50
Edler would be redundant on the Jets with Toby.

sully1410 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2012, 11:04 PM
  #45
ginner classic
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Kitsilano
Posts: 6,681
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmon View Post
unfortunately the role edler is used in is more for offense.

Ham-Juice plays against the teams top players.

edler gets 60 percent Offensive zone starts and huge pp time.

In that role, I would argue byfuglien makes a bigger impact.


Ham-Juice,
Garrison-Byfuglien

As a bonus, imagine in the playoffs, we can put byfuglien in front of the other teams net and cause chaos.
Vinnie was confounded by buff in front of the net but the other 28 coaches in the league would maybe just try to take his stick away instead of bringing a knife to a gun fight. The chicago series were lost on coaching alone. Buff is no crosby.

ginner classic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2012, 11:07 PM
  #46
Vankiller Whale
Maybe HE can score
 
Vankiller Whale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,239
vCash: 5555
So what about the Ballard + Schroeder for Antropov + Postma idea?

I probably should have just stuck with the minor deal, as usually deals involving core pieces don't do too well on HF.

Maybe some minor tweaks could be made to make it more suitable for either side?

Vankiller Whale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-17-2012, 10:55 AM
  #47
WTFMAN99
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,543
vCash: 500
I think Edler is capable of playing both sides if I remember right.

WTFMAN99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-17-2012, 12:38 PM
  #48
Gump Hasek
Spleen Merchant
 
Gump Hasek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: 222 Tudor Terrace
Posts: 7,291
vCash: 1250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
So what about the Ballard + Schroeder for Antropov + Postma idea?

I probably should have just stuck with the minor deal, as usually deals involving core pieces don't do too well on HF.

Maybe some minor tweaks could be made to make it more suitable for either side?
No thanks from Winnipeg. Ballard does not hold much value; there are a myriad of similar d-men available to be had via UFA every season, so why give up an asset to get Ballard? The Jets have no use for an undersized centre either.

Postma is due for his debut on the Jets blue line this year following a few years of AHL all-star performances. Antropov may or may not be available if/when Scheifele makes the Jets. That is yet to be determined.

Gump Hasek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2012, 01:59 AM
  #49
Crazed Fan
Registered User
 
Crazed Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 467
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boondock View Post
I'm not going to debate the merits of either of the OP's, however I do see the first deal as being the closest in terms of value and organizational needs. But to say Edler and Buff are a wash is asinine. Edler is a far superior defenseman. Offensively they might be a wash but in terms of overall defensive ability Edler and Byfuglien shouldn't be mentioned in the same conversation.
Edler can do things Byfuglien cannot. And Byfuglien can do things Edler cannot. Two different styles of play.
Edler is great, but watching Buff manhandle people sure is fun to watch. He brings a cannon shot and a lot of offense. I wouldnt look at Buff in a defensive defenseman kind of way. I like to look at Buff as more of a Rover. Enstrom just needs to make sure hes on the ball (which often he is). Its not all there yet, but its getting there.
Buff is an intangible, and he has a very distinct presence. All players, coaches, and fans take notice.
This sets him apart from not only Edler, but from all other hockey players.

Crazed Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2012, 03:55 AM
  #50
Phenomenon13
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 384
vCash: 500
Ballard currently doesnt hold much value. It would be very difficult to trade him. People should just give up on it unless the canucks are trading Ballard for a low pick or a similar cap dump.... Hypothetically, wouldn't the islanders be a better partner to trade Ballard to cause I hear Snow has trouble getting servicable NHL defencemen. Maybe we can pry a center or a struggling okposko if possible. Perhaps its too much wishful thinking.

If Edler was signed, he has more value than Byfuglien but if the season were to start now and he still had a year in his deal their value might be the same. I believe Edler is a top 20 if not top 15 defensman in the league. Personally I believe Canucks should keep Edler because that potentially gives them two shut down pairings. Depth is really important in the playoffs. Canucks also use this depth to cover the weakness taht they do not have a true number one. Byfuglien is not needed either because Garrison can play the right side and has just as good of a powerful shot and a better defensive player.

Phenomenon13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:43 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.