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All CBA talk. A deal? A deal!!!

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Old
11-12-2012, 01:05 PM
  #101
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Well if this article from the New York Times is correct:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/12/sp...-in-talks.html

The only significant thing separating the sides at this point is contracting issues. If that's the case, I can't see a deal taking too much longer.

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11-12-2012, 03:01 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by aceface33 View Post
Well if this article from the New York Times is correct:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/12/sp...-in-talks.html

The only significant thing separating the sides at this point is contracting issues. If that's the case, I can't see a deal taking too much longer.
I can see some give and take occurring.
e.g., a 5-yr league-proposed contract term limit ratcheting up a year or more, in exchange for an older UFA age.

Both sides must have statistics on the average deviation of a player's performance vs. their career median as f(age), studied as the total variance in performance is blocked / controlled for injury, trade between clubs, etc.

I can see the NHLPA asking some limited unfettering and/or grandfathering of contracts under past CBA, especially if the UFA age / service is pushed out.

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11-12-2012, 08:18 PM
  #103
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Bettman decided to return to Twitter this evening. I can't imagine he did so because he desired to receive extended lashings from fans. Reading the tea leaves, I'm guessing he believes a deal is within reach.

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11-12-2012, 11:19 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Bettman decided to return to Twitter this evening. I can't imagine he did so because he desired to receive extended lashings from fans. Reading the tea leaves, I'm guessing he believes a deal is within reach.
I hope so.

I want to see our youngbucks play. Grigs, foligno, Ennis , Hodgson, Mcnabb etc... should be an exciting year to see what the future has in store.

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11-13-2012, 04:35 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Bettman decided to return to Twitter this evening. I can't imagine he did so because he desired to receive extended lashings from fans. Reading the tea leaves, I'm guessing he believes a deal is within reach.
Fake account.

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11-15-2012, 05:20 PM
  #106
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Bill Daly on NHL lockout: "I'm more discouraged now then I have been at any point."
Looks like I'll be attending some more Amerks games to get my hockey fix this year...

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11-15-2012, 09:13 PM
  #107
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Bettman suggesting that the sides take a 2 week negotiating break.


Not sure if I like the idea or not.

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11-15-2012, 10:21 PM
  #108
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I said prior to the summer with Fehr at the helm, this was going to be an all out war. I tried to ignore those thoughts in Sept. and wanted to believe the NHLPA membership could't be this stupid but here we are.


How Fehr's predecessor Kelly was ousted let us know the hardliners were back in charge. As were the underhanded tactics they love even if they themselves aren't there. Eric Lindros, Ian Pulver, Buzz Hargrove and Ron Pink basically led a coup d'etat to remove Kelly.

The follow article is from August 31st 2009

http://nesn.com/2009/08/kelly-firing...l-never-learn/

Quote:
According to many, the NHLPA also may have signed a death warrant for themselves, the NHL and the game of hockey — because Kelly was looked upon as the first “true, clean” leader they ever had. “This is a very sad day for hockey,” Hall of Fame hockey scribe and former Lawrence Eagle Tribune NHL and Bruins beat writer Russ Conway told NESN.com on Monday. “Unfortunately, the union continues to drink the Kool-Aid.”

Conway — who was responsible for bringing former NHLPA head Alan Eagleson to justice with his best-selling book, Game Misconduct: Alan Eagleson and the Corruption of Hockey — knows the NHLPA inside out, and he is right on the money. Many players claim they are not kept in the loop with regard to what goes on with NHLPA matters — some even acknowledge they really don’t care to know but just want to play hockey. That’s all fine and refreshing to hear to an extent, except when something like this latest NHLPA debacle occurs.
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in recent months, a group consisting of the union’s legal counsel — Ian Penny, ombudsman Buzz Hargrove and chairman of the union’s advisory board Ron Pink — built a list of concerns regarding Kelly’s leadership. The purpose of this list was to ultimately convince the 30-member board of player reps to oust Kelly from his position with the union, which they did successfully during a lengthy meeting that ran from late Sunday afternoon until early Monday morning.
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Hargrove, Penny, Pink, Pulver and Lindros represent the old guard of the NHLPA, one that was confrontational, hard-lined and more concerned with money than the overall well-being of the union and the game. They come from a time when chaos and greed ruled the players’ association and still believe the union conceded too much after the 2004-05 lockout.
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According to sources, part of this group’s desire to get rid of Kelly also stemmed from Kelly ordering an internal audit (by a top former FBI forensic accountant) of the players' association's expenses during the previous three years before he took over. That audit was still ongoing prior to Kelly’s dismissal. Sources claim that through the audit, Kelly discovered that then-interim leaders Penny and Lindros were spending millions of dollars of the union’s money. Lindros ended up resigning, but word is, that move fueled this attack on Kelly, and Lindros was very much involved. Kelly also beat out Pink for the executive director job, and the belief is that Pink is still sour over that.
Quote:
“These guys could really care less about whether the game and the NHL take another PR hit with a work stoppage,” one source told Murphy’s Law on Sunday. “They’re more concerned with making money. They had a cozy setup before Kelly came in and found out what was going on. He has done his best to clean things up and distance the union from its troubled past. Unfortunately, part of that cleaning up should’ve been a housecleaning — because now these guys are conspiring against him. This is simply crazy.”
Quote:
“This was just a scheduled meeting to update the players on certain issues and just simple stuff to discuss,” said the source. “Now they come in and probably some of them are not as connected as others, and they could be duped into voting out probably the best leader they’ve ever had.” Unfortunately, as Conway pointed out, the 30 player reps that voted Kelly out Monday didn’t realize or appreciate what they had in Kelly. A hard-liner will now take over, and the cold war between the NHL and the NHLPA will resume. When the current collective bargaining agreement expires on Sept. 15, 2011, fans may be in for some more wrangling between the union and the NHL.

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11-15-2012, 10:32 PM
  #109
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NHL lockout: Players pay now for NHLPA coup

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey...nhlpa-coup-cox

Quote:
Why? Well, it was a coup orchestrated behind the scenes by union lawyer Ian Penny and ex-ombudsman Eric Lindros, and carried out in public by players like Andrew Ference, Matt Stajan and others.

Driving the coup, along with personal rivalries, was the suggestion that Kelly, despite his impressive record as a U.S. attorney, wasn’t tough enough and wasn’t experienced enough as a negotiator to take on the NHL and Gary Bettman.

What he had done was establish a cordial working relationship with Bettman. He’d even been invited to speak to the owners at a meeting in Pebble Beach, and that didn’t sit right with some.

Ultimately, a report was done on this shameful episode in NHLPA history, a report that has never seen the light of day or been made public.

Kelly’s dismissal set in motion a series of events.

First, former baseball union head Don Fehr, who was on the phone with members of the coup later in the same day that Kelly was fired, became a consultant for the NHLPA. He’d been denied a spot on the advisory committee on Kelly’s recommendation several months earlier

Quote:
Fehr, despite being asked, has never revealed what was in the Kelly Report or what his involvement was in the sacking of his predecessor.
Quote:
The players deserved better. Dumping Kelly just put them way behind. Now, they're paying the price

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11-15-2012, 10:38 PM
  #110
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Agents, Sidney Crosby call for answers over Paul Kelly firing

Another article from 2009 on the Kelly debacle

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey...l-kelly-firing


Quote:
The executive board of the NHL players union – which includes Leafs rep Matt Stajan – is on the hot seat today over the firing of executive director Paul Kelly.

While Stajan insisted yesterday that "there's no turning back" from the Aug.31 decision by the board to oust Kelly, concerns aired by sports agency CAA Sports indicates the executive committee owes the membership a proper explanation of the process. It's also believed CAA Sports will begin marshalling other agents to discuss the board's action in Kelly's ouster.

"We have had numerous discussions with our clients and other players around the league regarding the dismissal of Paul Kelly as executive director of the NHLPA," agents J.P. Barry and Pat Brisson of CAA Sports said in a statement.

Quote:
Those comments were echoed by Sidney Crosby, which led to speculation yesterday that the NHLPA continues to operate amid confusion and that the potential for a rift among the membership is growing.

"I definitely want to know how things happened," Crosby told ESPN. "I am part of the union like every other player and I think we all deserve a good explanation."

The board's decision came out of a 4 a.m. vote via secret ballot, something that sparked criticism over a lack of communication with the rest of the membership.
Quote:
Stajan reacted strongly to the dissent from CAA Sports, and suggestions from board member and Red Wing Chris Chelios that players in Detroit were "upset with how quickly it happened in one meeting and that they didn't have a say in it."

Stajan said it was incumbent on players to "take responsibility" in learning about the process from the 30 reps. Stajan said the Leafs players were "on board" with the process and the decision.

"You're a player rep and the players are relying on their reps to do their job," Stajan said. "If we could have all 750 players there, great, but that's hard to do. We felt a change was needed and we made it.

"You had a leader (Kelly) who came under an office review," Stajan added. "There was proof there (the office) was not functioning well, and that's on the leader. In any business, that's what can happen in situations like that (reviews). I don't know why anything else is coming out now, some guys are speculating, but that's what we decided and it was unanimous."

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11-15-2012, 10:44 PM
  #111
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Russ Conway has made comparisons between the Eagleson and Fehr eras in that players are not asking hard questions of the leadership. As he put it in one of the above articles

Quote:
“For years, the players wouldn’t ask Eagleson the tough questions,” he said. “Tell me, is Sidney Crosby asking Fehr tough questions?”

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11-15-2012, 10:55 PM
  #112
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Mark Recchi in a recent TSN article

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=409406

Quote:
"My advice," Recchi told Kevin Paul Dupont of The Boston Globe, "is that the longer it goes, the worse (the offer) is going to get (for the players)."
Quote:
As part owner of the WHL's Kamloops Blazers - his former junior team in his hometown - Recchi also understands the wants and needs at each side of the bargaining table. "Hey, I'm an owner, too, so I see both sides," he told The Globe. "We lose money on our team, and obviously that's not the same, the money's not nearly as significant as in the NHL, but the business dynamics are similar. We've lost money every year we've owned it."
Quote:
"The longer they're out, the revenues are going to go down and down," he told The Boston Globe. "Corporate sponsors aren't going to be lining up...so there goes that money. The schedule isn't going to be 82 games, I don't think, at this point. That's more money lost. So, how are you going to get a better deal? Personally, I think the best time is now."
Quote:
"But look what happened, the players always get their money. They're always going to get paid, no matter what. Look at that last deal. We ended up with the cap and everyone thought it was a bad deal. But it ended up great, right? No matter what the system is, or has been, the players get their money. No matter what the contract, the owners always find a way to pay them more. That's why I say, get a deal and get back in there...the money's always there."

Well said Mark




-Recchi also comments on Paul Kelly's ouster and how thats impacted the current situation as well as the idea of being "made whole".

Quote:
Recchi also expressed his shock regarding the news three years ago that the players fired then-executive director Paul Kelly.

"A dark time," Recchi told The Globe. "And it has been frustrating to see how it's played out, obviously. If Paul had stayed on the job, I don't think you would have seen this happen. The two sides would have started talking long before, maybe a year sooner (in 2011), and not with two or three months to go before (the CBA) expired. There would have been something in place, absolutely. And now here they are, trying to get to 50 per cent and also trying to make everyone whole. Well, you know, with the escrow we paid, I know I wasn't made whole over the last few years I played. That's just the way it was and we accepted it."


Last edited by joshjull: 11-15-2012 at 11:15 PM.
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11-16-2012, 12:06 AM
  #113
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If it hasn't already been mentioned, this was all foreseen by the great and wise James Duthie.

He said last week (on TSN radio Toronto) there would be another blow up and break off of talks before an agreement is reached. He got the first half right. Hopefully he is right on the 2nd part of his prediction.



EDIT: and yes I've had a lot of CBA related things I wanted to get off my chest

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11-16-2012, 05:57 AM
  #114
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Apparently Dr. Recchi picked up a law degree as well.


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11-16-2012, 09:02 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
Apparently Dr. Recchi picked up a law degree as well.

I'm certainly not saying Recchi is a lawyer or knows 100% of the situation. But he can't be 100% wrong on everything he has said. There must be some basis for truth in those comments. It would be ignorant to write off everything he said as wrong.



As for the other info ... Very interesting. 😏

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11-16-2012, 09:22 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by ZZamboni View Post
I'm certainly not saying Recchi is a lawyer or knows 100% of the situation. But he can't be 100% wrong on everything he has said. There must be some basis for truth in those comments. It would be ignorant to write off everything he said as wrong.



As for the other info ... Very interesting. 😏
I'm admittedly biased against Recchi. I couldn't stand him for pretty much his entire career. My comment was mostly snark, but really I think he should keep his mouth shut on this. He's retired, he already got his money. He has no skin in the game for this new agreement, and should be bossing players around on what HE thinks they should do.

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11-16-2012, 09:35 AM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
I'm admittedly biased against Recchi. I couldn't stand him for pretty much his entire career. My comment was mostly snark, but really I think he should keep his mouth shut on this. He's retired, he already got his money. He has no skin in the game for this new agreement, and should be bossing players around on what HE thinks they should do.
Yeah, but...
1) media have to sell papers / page views / etc., they'll talk to anyone who'll talk.
2) he can speak freely without being labeled as part of a faction within the existing NHLPA.
3) He's my age. Therefore, his perspective on these issues rings far truer to me, than say, Sidney Crosby's.
4) and I hated him as a player, too, just like Beechsack. His stint with the Flyers, his Cup with the 'Canes, then, a couple years later the playoff ouster of the Sabres while a Bruin. I'll be damn happy, though, if Stafford (lost cause) or Foligno (Episode 4 A New Hope) could play Recchi's style of game.

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11-16-2012, 09:48 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by brian_griffin View Post
Yeah, but...
1) media have to sell papers / page views / etc., they'll talk to anyone who'll talk.
2) he can speak freely without being labeled as part of a faction within the existing NHLPA.
3) He's my age. Therefore, his perspective on these issues rings far truer to me, than say, Sidney Crosby's.
4) and I hated him as a player, too, just like Beechsack. His stint with the Flyers, his Cup with the 'Canes, then, a couple years later the playoff ouster of the Sabres while a Bruin. I'll be damn happy, though, if Stafford (lost cause) or Foligno (Episode 4 A New Hope) could play Recchi's style of game.
People labeling Drew Stafford a "lost cause." Ah, hockey season must be just around the corner here at HF. If only we could have more lost causes in this organization who average 24 goals/82 games played.

But, but...he doesn't hit enough!! And hits correlate to winz!! (Wait, what's that? He led the top-9 forwards in hits last year? Oh, umm...he'd rather be playing his guitar!!!)

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11-16-2012, 10:02 AM
  #119
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NHL/NHLPA = Hostess/Union? Long live the twinkie....

Well done JJ! Sabretip-ish in terms of focus, logic and accuracy!

You've completely nailed it.......... The Kelley ouster fundamentally underpins this labor conflict. And Lindros, Penny and Co had the most to gain from this power play.

It's too bad that the players were asleep at the wheel when it happened. Elections do have consequences.

Reports I've read (go to the Main Boards - Business of Hockey and follow the links to Globe and Mail, etc. articles), Fehr has almost unprecedented executive power over the NHLPA membership. He's lined things up such that there's no steering committee or similar body that he really needs to run things by and he apparently fully controls the flow of information and communication. Selected players attend meetings but no one attends all the meetings and different ones only hear parts of different stories. The players are treated as mostly useful idiots to parrot Fehr's talking points.

Fehr has managed to effectively establish an executive dictatorship where NO ONE has the information they need to question the leader and his principle associate. Don and Steve are the only ones who know the whole picture.

Meanwhile the players hold useless practices and conditioning sessions and accept what they are being told versus independantly synthesizing and verifying information.

Sid the Kid (and others) aren't asking the tough questions because they naively believe they will be playing hockey any day now when in fact there's an orchestrated effort to feed them only that info that the Fehr's wants them to have.

I do wonder why the agents are putting up with this. They are smart guys who should be able to see what's going on. So I figure they either believe Fehr can win this (his goal is to delink compensation and the salary cap - the very thing the NHL went to the mat for last time). Or they completely dependant on their clients being made whole and are in this so deep that they have no choice but to go along.

Nonetheless, they have to see that they and their clients are headed for disaster.

It's going to get ugly. I'm speculating it's 70-30 at this point that the season will be cancelled.

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11-16-2012, 10:07 AM
  #120
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Well done JJ! Sabretip-ish in terms of focus, logic and accuracy!

You've completely nailed it.......... The Kelley ouster fundamentally underpins this labor conflict. And Lindros, Penny and Co had the most to gain from this power play.

It's too bad that the players were asleep at the wheel when it happened. Elections do have consequences.

Reports I've read (go to the Main Boards - Business of Hockey and follow the links to Globe and Mail, etc. articles), Fehr has almost unprecedented executive power over the NHLPA membership. He's lined things up such that there's no steering committee or similar body that he really needs to run things by and he apparently fully controls the flow of information and communication. Selected players attend meetings but no one attends all the meetings and different ones only hear parts of different stories. The players are treated as mostly useful idiots to parrot Fehr's talking points.

Fehr has managed to effectively establish an executive dictatorship where NO ONE has the information they need to question the leader and his principle associate. Don and Steve are the only ones who know the whole picture.

Meanwhile the players hold useless practices and conditioning sessions and accept what they are being told versus independantly synthesizing and verifying information.

Sid the Kid (and others) aren't asking the tough questions because they naively believe they will be playing hockey any day now when in fact there's an orchestrated effort to feed them only that info that the Fehr's wants them to have.


I do wonder why the agents are putting up with this. They are smart guys who should be able to see what's going on. So I figure they either believe Fehr can win this (his goal is to delink compensation and the salary cap - the very thing the NHL went to the mat for last time). Or they completely dependant on their clients being made whole and are in this so deep that they have no choice but to go along.

Nonetheless, they have to see that they and their clients are headed for disaster.

It's going to get ugly. I'm speculating it's 70-30 at this point that the season will be cancelled.
Every public player comment disputes this. To a man they've all said Fehr has kept them very well informed.

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11-16-2012, 10:21 AM
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People labeling Drew Stafford a "lost cause." Ah, hockey season must be just around the corner here at HF. If only we could have more lost causes in this organization who average 24 goals/82 games played.

But, but...he doesn't hit enough!! And hits correlate to winz!! (Wait, what's that? He led the top-9 forwards in hits last year? Oh, umm...he'd rather be playing his guitar!!!)
Stafford frustrates me, because I believe he could be a dominate player, but like many other players on the team, he's pretty inconsistent. I dont think he's a lost cause, just need to accept that he likely wont take that next step.

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11-16-2012, 10:21 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
Every public player comment disputes this. To a man they've all said Fehr has kept them very well informed.
Unless they've attended every meeting then there's no way to know how 'well informed' they are. If you've ever taking a class on communications and did that little exercise of telling a phrase to 1 person and then seeing how convoluted it turns out after being passed along the way, as that's how I see the rank and file's perception of being well informed.

The longer this goes on, the more I hope the players get screwed in the long run but of course that might just be due to strong republican beliefs and a long standing disdain for unions, especially sports unions.

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11-16-2012, 10:26 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Old Navy Goat View Post
Unless they've attended every meeting then there's no way to know how 'well informed' they are. If you've ever taking a class on communications and did that little exercise of telling a phrase to 1 person and then seeing how convoluted it turns out after being passed along the way, as that's how I see the rank and file's perception of being well informed.

The longer this goes on, the more I hope the players get screwed in the long run but of course that might just be due to strong republican beliefs and a long standing disdain for unions, especially sports unions.
Interesting. I have friends who are generally anti-union when it comes to traditional private sector jobs (hotel workers, for instance), but don't mind sports unions because they are one of the few professions where the employees are able to exercise bargaining power because of their irreplaceable skillsets.

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11-16-2012, 10:29 AM
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Interesting. I have friends who are generally anti-union when it comes to traditional private sector jobs (hotel workers, for instance), but don't mind sports unions because they are one of the few professions where the employees are able to exercise bargaining power because of their irreplaceable skillsets.
The irreplaceable skillset is strictly limited to the upper echelon players. There's plenty of other guys out there that can step in and replace your 3rd and 4th liners. If there was another football strike and they went the replacement route, except for the QBs and a couple elite running backs you would hardly see the difference in the game.

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11-16-2012, 10:30 AM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Old Navy Goat View Post
Unless they've attended every meeting then there's no way to know how 'well informed' they are. If you've ever taking a class on communications and did that little exercise of telling a phrase to 1 person and then seeing how convoluted it turns out after being passed along the way, as that's how I see the rank and file's perception of being well informed.

The longer this goes on, the more I hope the players get screwed in the long run but of course that might just be due to strong republican beliefs and a long standing disdain for unions, especially sports unions.
The players are getting their information from the NHLPA website, and an NHLPA phone app, according to their own statements. They're all seeing the same information. Many of the players reps have repeated this publicly for the last two months.

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