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Off-season Madness the 4th: and here we wait in trade-completion limbo

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11-16-2012, 08:49 AM
  #401
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Originally Posted by Scion View Post
I recommend everyone listen to this interview by Keith Law, it is especially relevant to the Trout vs. Cabrera debate, and significance of the "Triple-Crown."

http://audio.weei.com/a/66643620/kei...ese-people.htm
Keith Law not a bad baseball mind but suffers from little mans disease. Then the morons on this show ask Law why Cabrera didn't score more runs than Trout. It has nothing to do with having Delmon Young batting 5th who was one of the worst players in baseball driving in runs? Anybody who has to shout from the mountain top on how people should vote cares too much.

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11-16-2012, 08:50 AM
  #402
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Is it Possible to get a tax protection written into Their contract? I read somewhere that Carlos Delgado had one with Toronto.
Troy Glaus had one I know and it was enacted when he got traded here

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11-16-2012, 08:53 AM
  #403
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Anyone who is wondering why the trade is taking so long to accept, its because a phsyical has not been taken by Jose Reyes cause he was in dubai until thursday night.

The deal will be finalized today or tomorrow.

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11-16-2012, 09:08 AM
  #404
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Anyone who is wondering why the trade is taking so long to accept, its because a phsyical has not been taken by Jose Reyes cause he was in dubai until thursday night.

The deal will be finalized today or tomorrow.
Until this deal is done, a lot of teams are in the holding pattern, including the Jays.

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11-16-2012, 09:10 AM
  #405
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I just want this deal to be done with. Can't wait for what the jays do next.

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11-16-2012, 09:12 AM
  #406
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Apparently bofore this deal was announced, the Jays reached out to Marcum to find out what's what.

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11-16-2012, 09:18 AM
  #407
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Apparently bofore this deal was announced, the Jays reached out to Marcum to find out what's what.
whats what on what?

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11-16-2012, 09:30 AM
  #408
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I don't see any reason for Selig to veto the trade. The damage to the Miami franchise has already been done. Forcing the players to stay there won't change the perception of fans or future free agents.
This is a very good post. Couldn't have said it any better.

The fans will still have a dirty taste in their mouth and I think the Marlins have lost a lot of them whether the trade is vetoed or not.

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Old
11-16-2012, 09:36 AM
  #409
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but how is that something that gives him points over trout? How is it Trout's fault that he didn't have as many RBI opportunities as Cabrera?
Those are the breaks. Trout didn't do even remotely as well as Cabrera when it counted. At the end of the day, one was quantitatively more valuable than the other, nobody is 'at fault' but those are how the chips fell. C'est la vie.

I would also like to add that this discounting of certain fundamental stats because of disparities in opportunity or attribution to team play don't fly in hockey (as this is a hockey board). Nobody says assists (and therefore, points) shouldn't count for the Hart trophy because those are a team stat. If they did they'd be laughed at.

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11-16-2012, 09:46 AM
  #410
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"The Indians have plenty of data they could throw a team’s way. For example, there is this: since 2008, only nine players have achieved a slash line of at least .290/.380/.470 with at least 600 games played. That list includes Prince Fielder, Adrian Gonzalez, Miguel Cabrera, Albert Pujols, Matt Holliday, Joey Votto, Joe Mauer, Chipper Jones and Choo. Not too shabby
http://bastian.mlblogs.com/2012/11/15/2124600/

Choo is available and would be a great target for our LF position. The Korean is truly one of the more underrated players in the game and will fill a huge hole in LF.

I think a deal is doable without including D'Arnaud. Cleveland might have interest in Anthony Gose and that's okay as Rasmus is totally fine in CF for us.

Choo - Rasmus - Bautista solidify the OF for us.

Reyes SS
Lawrie 3B
Bautista RF
Encarnacion DH
Choo LF
Rasmus CF
Adam Lind 1B
Arencibia C
Emilio Bonafacio 2B

That's a deadly lineup.

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11-16-2012, 09:50 AM
  #411
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Originally Posted by Dark Knight View Post
http://bastian.mlblogs.com/2012/11/15/2124600/

Choo is available and would be a great target for our LF position. The Korean is truly one of the more underrated players in the game and will fill a huge hole in LF.

I think a deal is doable without including D'Arnaud. Cleveland might have interest in Anthony Gose and that's okay as Rasmus is totally fine in CF for us.

Choo - Rasmus - Bautista solidify the OF for us.

Reyes SS
Lawrie 3B
Bautista RF
Encarnacion DH
Choo LF
Rasmus CF
Adam Lind 1B
Arencibia C
Emilio Bonafacio 2B

That's a deadly lineup.
He's a Boras client and has an expiring contract. No thanks on losing Gose for one year of Choo


Last edited by dredeye: 11-16-2012 at 10:22 AM.
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Old
11-16-2012, 09:50 AM
  #412
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whats what on what?
Bob Elliot reported that they inquired on his asking price.

Heres a link http://www.mlbdailydish.com/2012/11/...n-shaun-marcum

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11-16-2012, 09:54 AM
  #413
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This is a very good post. Couldn't have said it any better.

The fans will still have a dirty taste in their mouth and I think the Marlins have lost a lot of them whether the trade is vetoed or not.
Bud Selig can't do squat because he ripped off Brewers fans. Miller Park was paid for mostly by the city. Selig also decided to cut the team's payroll after he got Miller Park. He was then able to sell the franchise for alot more after tricking the city into building him a new stadium.

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Old
11-16-2012, 09:58 AM
  #414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Knight View Post
http://bastian.mlblogs.com/2012/11/15/2124600/

Choo is available and would be a great target for our LF position. The Korean is truly one of the more underrated players in the game and will fill a huge hole in LF.

I think a deal is doable without including D'Arnaud. Cleveland might have interest in Anthony Gose and that's okay as Rasmus is totally fine in CF for us.

Choo - Rasmus - Bautista solidify the OF for us.

Reyes SS
Lawrie 3B
Bautista RF
Encarnacion DH
Choo LF
Rasmus CF
Adam Lind 1B
Arencibia C
Emilio Bonafacio 2B

That's a deadly lineup.
Love Choo (despite the fact that he cooled terribly in August and September), but he's a one-year rental. The Jays do not have a good relationship with Scott Boras, his agent, and Boras' clients don't see team's contract offers - they go to FA and he presents the highest dollar value contract, so Choo would be an ultra-high flight risk. Not remotely worth giving up Gose.

As an aside, Bonifacio's defence is much better in the outfield than the infield. Izturis, meanwhile, is a much better defender at 2B, and judging by his home/away splits, his offensive production should improve at the Rogers Centre. So they can very comfortably go into spring training with Izturis earmarked for 2B, and Bonifacio in LF. If they want to upgrade either position, it had better not come at the expense of a top prospect like Gose.

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Old
11-16-2012, 10:05 AM
  #415
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Originally Posted by dredeye View Post
He's a Broas client and has an expiring contract. No thanks on losing Gose for one year of Choo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio Jones View Post
Love Choo (despite the fact that he cooled terribly in August and September), but he's a one-year rental. The Jays do not have a good relationship with Scott Boras, his agent, and Boras' clients don't see team's contract offers - they go to FA and he presents the highest dollar value contract, so Choo would be an ultra-high flight risk. Not remotely worth giving up Gose.

As an aside, Bonifacio's defence is much better in the outfield than the infield. Izturis, meanwhile, is a much better defender at 2B, and judging by his home/away splits, his offensive production should improve at the Rogers Centre. So they can very comfortably go into spring training with Izturis earmarked for 2B, and Bonifacio in LF. If they want to upgrade either position, it had better not come at the expense of a top prospect like Gose.
Agree with these two. No trading Gose for a rental. Jays can't get crazy now.

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11-16-2012, 10:06 AM
  #416
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Those are the breaks. Trout didn't do even remotely as well as Cabrera when it counted. At the end of the day, one was quantitatively more valuable than the other, nobody is 'at fault' but those are how the chips fell. C'est la vie.

I would also like to add that this discounting of certain fundamental stats because of disparities in opportunity or attribution to team play don't fly in hockey (as this is a hockey board). Nobody says assists (and therefore, points) shouldn't count for the Hart trophy because those are a team stat. If they did they'd be laughed at.
Quantitatively using sabremetrics as well as taking into account more than .avg rbi and home runs... things like sb's... you're definitely right there was one player who could be considered quantitatively more valuable... and thats Trout.

As for the assists being a team stat... thats a fundamentally flawed comparison. Comparing assists to rbi would only work if essentially a player got on the ice and passed it to the same exact spot every time, regardless as to whether there was a player there to recieve it and score or not.

Hitting is hitting is hitting. Whether there are 3 men on base or 0, its the exact same skill. Putting the bat to the ball and hoping it lands somewhere it can't be corralled. Passing in hockey is MUCH different. You must get to open space, find the open player and put the puck on his stick. There are roughly infinity different scenarios and ways in which you can make a play to collect an assist. There is only one way to step to the plate and put the bat to the ball.

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Old
11-16-2012, 10:11 AM
  #417
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tell me buehrle will come despite his dog not coming

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11-16-2012, 10:13 AM
  #418
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Originally Posted by topched View Post
Quantitatively using sabremetrics as well as taking into account more than .avg rbi and home runs... things like sb's... you're definitely right there was one player who could be considered quantitatively more valuable... and thats Trout.

As for the assists being a team stat... thats a fundamentally flawed comparison. Comparing assists to rbi would only work if essentially a player got on the ice and passed it to the same exact spot every time, regardless as to whether there was a player there to recieve it and score or not.

Hitting is hitting is hitting. Whether there are 3 men on base or 0, its the exact same skill. Putting the bat to the ball and hoping it lands somewhere it can't be corralled. Passing in hockey is MUCH different. You must get to open space, find the open player and put the puck on his stick. There are roughly infinity different scenarios and ways in which you can make a play to collect an assist. There is only one way to step to the plate and put the bat to the ball.
Amen. One thing that is quite evident, the MVP and Gold Glove awards are far more qualitative in nature than quantitative. I learned that lesson long ago.

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11-16-2012, 10:16 AM
  #419
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tell me buehrle will come despite his dog not coming
Thats the hold up

People love their dogs, whats he to do?

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11-16-2012, 10:18 AM
  #420
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Does Happ have options?
Yup. It gives Jays flexibility to either sign a established starter and have him start out in the minors or he can move to the pen. Or just keep him as the #5 and get a young starter that has options.

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I agree, for the most part, BUT he's a guy with a great arm and lets face it, we're talking about a number 5 option. Number 5 starters aren't exactly the model of consistency nor do you need them to be. If he can even lower the walks just a bit, he'd be a hell of a great number 5. It's very unlikely as his mechanics are indeed a mess but nonetheless, the point remains that we are talking about a fifth starter. If the guy can give you 6 innings at 3 runs or less you take that every single time as the fifth man. I still think Happ would produce the same.
Well, Liriano is either a guy that produces an ERA in the 5's or gets in the 3's but sure, I see your point.

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Same with Buehrle?
Not necessary. Buehrle used to pitch in that bandbox of a park with the White Sox and did well for many years. Also a guy that usually outperforms his peripherals too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Knight View Post
http://bastian.mlblogs.com/2012/11/15/2124600/

Choo is available and would be a great target for our LF position. The Korean is truly one of the more underrated players in the game and will fill a huge hole in LF.

I think a deal is doable without including D'Arnaud. Cleveland might have interest in Anthony Gose and that's okay as Rasmus is totally fine in CF for us.

Choo - Rasmus - Bautista solidify the OF for us.

Reyes SS
Lawrie 3B
Bautista RF
Encarnacion DH
Choo LF
Rasmus CF
Adam Lind 1B
Arencibia C
Emilio Bonafacio 2B

That's a deadly lineup.
No thanks. Jays don't really need a Choo nor will they be giving up big assets to get him. He is a FA after next season and a Boras client -- a sure bet to be gone.

Jays don't need another big bat. Their offense is fine... if they could get an above average LF with a LH bat, I think that's good enough.

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Old
11-16-2012, 10:18 AM
  #421
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Quantitatively using sabremetrics as well as taking into account more than .avg rbi and home runs... things like sb's... you're definitely right there was one player who could be considered quantitatively more valuable... and thats Trout.
Sabremetrics is subjective and theoretical. That's the big difference here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by topched View Post
Hitting is hitting is hitting. Whether there are 3 men on base or 0, its the exact same skill. Putting the bat to the ball and hoping it lands somewhere it can't be corralled. Passing in hockey is MUCH different. You must get to open space, find the open player and put the puck on his stick. There are roughly infinity different scenarios and ways in which you can make a play to collect an assist. There is only one way to step to the plate and put the bat to the ball.
This isn't as simple as putting a ball to a bat where no scenario, pressure, or necessity matter. If that were the case, A-Rod would be a happy man.

And to suggest that players can't pull or drive to gaps, or go long for the sac fly, etc. undermines the art of hitting altogether.

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Old
11-16-2012, 10:19 AM
  #422
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ny post

Cone: Blue Jays, not Yankees, team to beat in AL East
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/yanke...Ol3TdJeDjRLBfL

Girardi: Jeter may miss Yankees Opening Day
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/yanke...JUlZTRx9n5jedN

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11-16-2012, 10:21 AM
  #423
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I think the Jays only have one major hole they need to fill: 1B.

Bonifacio is fine at LF and Izturis is fine at 2B to start, but they need a proven big bat at 1B rather than a question mark like Lind.

Flipping Arencibia+ for a 1B would be an ideal move IMO.

Also, another proven pitcher like a Haren/Marcum/maybe even McCarthy on a 1 or 2 year deal would be great to solidify the rotation.

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11-16-2012, 10:26 AM
  #424
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I think the Jays only have one major hole they need to fill: 1B.

Bonifacio is fine at LF and Izturis is fine at 2B to start, but they need a proven big bat at 1B rather than a question mark like Lind.

Flipping Arencibia+ for a 1B would be an ideal move IMO.

Also, another proven pitcher like a Haren/Marcum/maybe even McCarthy on a 1 or 2 year deal would be great to solidify the rotation.
EE plays 1st base?

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11-16-2012, 10:26 AM
  #425
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Originally Posted by Leafssss View Post
I think the Jays only have one major hole they need to fill: 1B.

Bonifacio is fine at LF and Izturis is fine at 2B to start, but they need a proven big bat at 1B rather than a question mark like Lind.

Flipping Arencibia+ for a 1B would be an ideal move IMO.

Also, another proven pitcher like a Haren/Marcum/maybe even McCarthy on a 1 or 2 year deal would be great to solidify the rotation.
Edwin Encarnacion can, and perhaps should, be considered the 1B. His defense was passable there, and it didn't effect his hitting. IMO, an affordable RH bat (ala Jonny Gomes 2011) should be acquired to platoon with Lind at DH. I do agree that there are no other glaring holes that need to be filled in the lineup.

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