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Old
11-16-2012, 10:25 AM
  #576
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Without fans there is no "pie" to split at 50-50 or 57-43. Why would either side NOT care about fans?
How are they showing to care about the Fans when they go through yet another lockout, and take ages to negotiate deals?
What do they do in those meetings when they spend hours and hours only to come out with a regressed position?

Neither side have show signs of caring.
As Habs have said, it's looking more and more like an ego battle rather than a negotiation.

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11-16-2012, 10:26 AM
  #577
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No it's a standoff given that the league already made their best offer and that Fehr won't blink on the players' position. ..
The league hasn't made their best offer, don't kid yourself. They will budge on the contract lengths, I suspect the entry level contracts as well.

Eventually, they all meet somewhere in the middle, once the posturing has stopped.

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11-16-2012, 10:33 AM
  #578
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The part people don't seem to understand is, if the owners get a deal they are not happy with half of them may LOSE money. If the players get a deal they don't like most of them may only make 90% of a whole lot of money. I know in principle they don't want to give away the farm, but they complained the last lock out and they still made a huge pile of money and salaries went up line 80% in 8 years. The big name players will still get the big bucks.

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11-16-2012, 10:38 AM
  #579
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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
The league hasn't made their best offer, don't kid yourself. They will budge on the contract lengths, I suspect the entry level contracts as well.

Eventually, they all meet somewhere in the middle, once the posturing has stopped.
And that's precisely the attitude on the players' side that will make this lockout long. There's no respect for what the league is saying or what the league says is necessary. What tells you that the middle has not been reached yet? Scepticism? I said it before I want to know which players are going to say that they just woke up in the middle of a nightmare once the season is cancelled. These geniuses I won't cheer for anymore if this happens and I've always been someone who cheered for the players first, not the damn symbols on their chests...


Last edited by vokiel: 11-16-2012 at 11:34 AM.
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11-16-2012, 10:39 AM
  #580
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The part people don't seem to understand is, if the owners get a deal they are not happy with half of them may LOSE money. If the players get a deal they don't like most of them may only make 90% of a whole lot of money. I know in principle they don't want to give away the farm, but they complained the last lock out and they still made a huge pile of money and salaries went up line 80% in 8 years. The big name players will still get the big bucks.
Id like the player to start talking about a revenue sharing system too, like they proposed the owners should do. Sid gives a % of his money to Joe Vitale, etc.

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11-16-2012, 10:41 AM
  #581
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
How are they showing to care about the Fans when they go through yet another lockout, and take ages to negotiate deals?
What do they do in those meetings when they spend hours and hours only to come out with a regressed position?

Neither side have show signs of caring.
As Habs have said, it's looking more and more like an ego battle rather than a negotiation.
It has nothing to do with the fans at all. It's a complicated situation where increased revenue in big markets is causing inflation in salaries and making it hard for small markets to compete. If you are a fan of a small market, you need this to be agood CBa so your team can keep it's good players and compete and not end up a farm team for the big teams like 10-15 years ago where the top 6-7 markets got all the big name UFA's.

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11-16-2012, 11:02 AM
  #582
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
It has nothing to do with the fans at all. It's a complicated situation where increased revenue in big markets is causing inflation in salaries and making it hard for small markets to compete. If you are a fan of a small market, you need this to be agood CBa so your team can keep it's good players and compete and not end up a farm team for the big teams like 10-15 years ago where the top 6-7 markets got all the big name UFA's.
Regardless of how this new CBA will be built...the big market teams will always be able to sign/attract the big names while the small market teams will continue to be feeders for the rest of the league.

That happened 10-15 years ago...but nothing has changed today either. All that's changed is the small market teams have been able to hang onto their star players for a bit longer.

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11-16-2012, 11:07 AM
  #583
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Id like the player to start talking about a revenue sharing system too, like they proposed the owners should do. Sid gives a % of his money to Joe Vitale, etc.
That's a great idea and I'm not being sarcastic. Why only pick on the richest teams to bail out the poorest (There's only 3-5 ffs). They're different companies. The PA could propose to be a member of this bailing out effort too as the players are different companies as well.

Edit: oh wait.. Joe Vitale isn't a team and he doesn't need bailing out lol


Last edited by vokiel: 11-16-2012 at 11:37 AM.
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11-16-2012, 11:16 AM
  #584
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lol Bettman, what a fool. why would anyone say something like this, to the media? what will the NHL gain from it?

i hope the league crumbles in Bettman's hands.

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11-16-2012, 11:19 AM
  #585
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lol Bettman, what a fool. why would anyone say something like this, to the media? what will the NHL gain from it?

i hope the league crumbles in Bettman's hands.
say what you want, he's winning the PR battle and it's not even close.

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11-16-2012, 11:29 AM
  #586
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say what you want, he's winning the PR battle and it's not even close.
too bad these negotiations have nothing to do with winning a PR battle.

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11-16-2012, 11:32 AM
  #587
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too bad these negotiations have nothing to do with winning a PR battle.
That's completely wrong though...it IS part of the negotiation process, even moreso today given that information is accessible immediately and 24hrs a day. If it had nothing to do with the negotiation process, why are both sides spending so much time trying to win the PR battle and using fans/media as pawns to do so?

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11-16-2012, 11:36 AM
  #588
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too bad these negotiations have nothing to do with winning a PR battle.
Too bad the players are constantly contradicting you by whining to the media about whatever they have to complain about. As if the PR battle did matter...

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11-16-2012, 11:38 AM
  #589
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That's completely wrong though...it IS part of the negotiation process, even moreso today given that information is accessible immediately and 24hrs a day.
The information is available because they decide to make it available. if they want, they can keep everything behind closed doors. The parts of these negotiations that had some advancements where the parts where both sides were negotiating between them, last week, when no one knew anything.
Until now, Whenever there has been some kind of PR move by either side, it was more or less an indication that the negotiations were not going in the right direction.
Every time they open their mouth, the PA or the NHL, they go back a step, to guard their 'egos'.
The PR side just hurts both sides and the negotiation process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vokiel View Post
Too bad the players are constantly contradicting you by whining to the media about whatever they have to complain about. As if the PR battle did matter...
see above; not exclusive to the NHL. PR battle doesn't matter, and is just smokescreen to a terrible negotiation process.

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11-16-2012, 11:40 AM
  #590
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The information is available because they decide to make it available. if they want, they can keep everything behind closed doors. The parts of these negotiations that had some advancements where the parts where both sides were negotiating between them, last week, when no one knew anything.
Until now, Whenever there has been some kind of PR move by either side, it was more or less an indication that the negotiations were not going in the right direction.
Every time they open their mouth, the PA or the NHL, they go back a step, to guard their 'egos'.
The PR side just hurts both sides and the negotiation process.
I don't disagree with that...but to say that the PR battle isn't part of the negotiations is false. Obviously, negotiations have hit an impass, and swaying public opinion is a way to get movement on certain issues.

Whether or not that's a productive way to do things is another story though...you're right about that.

IMO, the PR battle matters so much that if by some incredible miracle, the media would institute a moratorium of their own on reporting every single minute detail about these current negotiations, a deal would quickly follow.

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11-16-2012, 11:49 AM
  #591
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
The information is available because they decide to make it available. if they want, they can keep everything behind closed doors. The parts of these negotiations that had some advancements where the parts where both sides were negotiating between them, last week, when no one knew anything.
Until now, Whenever there has been some kind of PR move by either side, it was more or less an indication that the negotiations were not going in the right direction.
Every time they open their mouth, the PA or the NHL, they go back a step, to guard their 'egos'.
The PR side just hurts both sides and the negotiation process.



see above; not exclusive to the NHL. PR battle doesn't matter, and is just smokescreen to a terrible negotiation process.
I would normally agree with you. Taking into account that the players have been on numerous occasion complaining about the ownership strategies to turn fans against them thus increasing the amount pressure they have to live through, I would say I disagree a lot. Add that news outlets like RDS have been pushing an almost exclusive player favourable position, there's just too much going on to say that it doesn't matter or that it didn't matter.

It isn't entirely a smokescreen here... Whether it hurts the process or not I can't say, I'm not at the table, and that's a different subject. I surely hope the players aren't putting the antics they're putting on camera at the negotiation table, because I would certainly react in an equal manner if I was on the other side.

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Old
11-16-2012, 12:05 PM
  #592
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And you will be tuning out, eventually.

You watch the habs 3-4 times a week because they put forth NHL talent that is mediocre. When they put something like what we had after the deadline last year, people stop watching. Heck, even I stopped watching unless I was at home with nothing to do. Before that though, you make plans to watch the games. Now because our team had become so bad, which usually means boring, I started watching less.
This despite having guys like MaxPac, Cole, Plek, PK, Price, Gorges still around.

So if you bring in replacement players that are not, at all, NHL players, you won't be watching them as regularly. Not unless you have nothing to do on every single night they play.
I don't agree Kriss, respectfully. I will always watch Habs as long as they ice professional NHL players, and I will support every player on the team. Yes. I hate it when they are crap, but Habs NEVER play to lose, not in the 40 years I've watched them.

As an example, Cole was fantastic last year, he obviously took pride in playing for Habs, and he worked his ass off, injured the last 20 games of the year. In my opinion Cole was one of the best players in the NHL last year, and you will not see an Erik Cole with replacement players.

Habs are an NHL team, one of the first NHL teams, and they play with NHL players, the best players they can get, not scrubs. It would be shameful to see mediocre weak willed players play in the Habs jersey. I would not watch one minute.

Edit: Sorry Kriss, I misunderstood. What I was disagreeing with was you're tuning out the Habs when they are bad, with NHL players. I don't do that. However we both agree that replacement players would be a travesty.


Last edited by bsl: 11-16-2012 at 12:13 PM.
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Old
11-16-2012, 12:28 PM
  #593
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I didn't think they would go through with a lockout.

The NHL as a whole is immensely profitable, ~130 milion in operating income, the players also make an average of ~2.4 million/year.

Who are the seven owners on the executive committee? I need a list of teams to hate when hockey resumes... Minnesota, Boston, who else?
I agree. This is just shocking. With the banking mess, and the incredibly dim and late realization by the 99% Human Capital (love that term, even Orwell did not think of that one) , that they are being ****ed in the bum, one would think the owners would be careful, and play nice.

As it turns out, this is becoming just one more symptom of the ever growing cancerous global capital and rentier class versus labour disease.

God, things are really awful in the world right now. Really just terribly ****. Whiskey. Double.


Last edited by bsl: 11-16-2012 at 12:34 PM.
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Old
11-16-2012, 12:35 PM
  #594
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http://www.rds.ca/hockey/chroniques/351369.html



And Ian White is what exactly? A not helpful whiny *****. Sorry about that

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11-16-2012, 12:55 PM
  #595
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Originally Posted by vokiel View Post
http://www.rds.ca/hockey/chroniques/351369.html



And Ian White is what exactly? A not helpful whiny *****. Sorry about that
what ian white or any other player says on his twitter/facebook has no actual implications on the negotiation process, unlike if people who are actually directly involved with the negos.

Only difference is, the NHL has no talking policy, so it can control all it's PR. Because it values it's PR in terms of market share gains. While NHLPA doesn't have PR battle to win, nor a market share to gain. All they have/doing is a labour battle.

On the other hand, if bettman goes public by telling us in advance that NHL will vote on a lock out: that will have direct implications with nego process.

Personally i don't care about PR battle, and who is "winning" it makes absolutely no difference. If there is a PR battle, it's because the nego process is *****. Which is obviously the case. The more each side talks s*it to the media, the worse the nego process will be/get.

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11-16-2012, 01:15 PM
  #596
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Originally Posted by vokiel View Post
http://www.rds.ca/hockey/chroniques/351369.html



And Ian White is what exactly? A not helpful whiny *****. Sorry about that
Lol'ed at White saying it should have been done during the summer when the NHL asked to start meeting last January. It's the PA that made it start so late before the season. Who's the idiot?

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11-16-2012, 02:16 PM
  #597
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http://www.rds.ca/hockey/chroniques/351369.html



And Ian White is what exactly? A not helpful whiny *****. Sorry about that

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11-16-2012, 02:53 PM
  #598
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I have cheered for the habs when they had Rejean Houle making the decisions about the personnel on the ice...what's the difference?

I'm not losing any sleep without hockey, but I will be tuning in for sure the second that the habs will be on RDS 3-4 times a week. Players come and go all the time...

It's interesting to think about the different reasons that fans cheer though...
Definintely interesting. It somehow never really occurred to me that so many people would see things so completely differently from the way I do on that. I watch hockey at all levels, have since I was a kid. I have been exclusively loyal as a Habs fan in the NHL, while nomadically following a variety of teams at lower levels. I can sort of see the union-based solidarity argument against supporting a replacement player team, that's more a political/philosophical decision and I think I can understand that angle even if I don't personally find it all that meaningful at the income levels of NHL players.

But I never figured people wouldn't watch just because they thought it somehow wasn't "the best" hockey it could be. There are players in the ECHL today who are better than players I cheered for as Habs in decades past. I just don't see how the relative quality of the players matters or how it would be a "travesty" or anything like that. The connection to the "Habs logo" is just of paramount importance to me.

Bringing in replacement players would be somewhat distasteful just from it being a union-busting technique, but really, it's a union of millionaires who had ample opportunity to continue being millionaires, so it's a little hard to get behind them on principle like you would for the more run-of-the-mill blue-collar unions of yesteryear. Nobody is being oppressed or really being subjected to extremes of exploitation here. I mean, I'm pro-player on the basic bargaining issues in this CBA negotiation, and beyond left wing politically, but to me this isn't about real human rights issues or anything like that, the NHL is just a form of entertainment, a luxury item to modern society... I like watching hockey, and have formed a personal identification with the Montreal Canadiens... but I really don't care who the players on the ice are or how they stack up against some other group of players in the past, future, or outside the league.

If anything, as a rambling aside, in terms of labour issues and societal impacts... if a replacement player league was up and running and all the rest of the non-player employees and "normal people" with small scale stakes in the business were back on their myriad jobs, I'd say that was a more important issue than worrying about the names on the back of the players' jerseys. Nobody is representing the ticket checkers or floor sweepers or zamboni drivers or waiters or whoever in the labour dispute. Put the replacement players on the ice, I'm satisfied as a non-judgemental Habs devotee looking for hockey entertainment and certain I'd find it, and also *more* satisfied on behalf of the unrepresented 99%ers associated at whatever remove with the industry as well.

(All while still accepting that replacement players are probably even less of an option for our team than they might be for others, just on labour laws, so still treating it all as one big fat hypothetical fantasy, of course.)

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11-16-2012, 03:20 PM
  #599
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Definintely interesting. It somehow never really occurred to me that so many people would see things so completely differently from the way I do on that. I watch hockey at all levels, have since I was a kid. I have been exclusively loyal as a Habs fan in the NHL, while nomadically following a variety of teams at lower levels. I can sort of see the union-based solidarity argument against supporting a replacement player team, that's more a political/philosophical decision and I think I can understand that angle even if I don't personally find it all that meaningful at the income levels of NHL players.

But I never figured people wouldn't watch just because they thought it somehow wasn't "the best" hockey it could be. There are players in the ECHL today who are better than players I cheered for as Habs in decades past. I just don't see how the relative quality of the players matters or how it would be a "travesty" or anything like that. The connection to the "Habs logo" is just of paramount importance to me.

Bringing in replacement players would be somewhat distasteful just from it being a union-busting technique, but really, it's a union of millionaires who had ample opportunity to continue being millionaires, so it's a little hard to get behind them on principle like you would for the more run-of-the-mill blue-collar unions of yesteryear. Nobody is being oppressed or really being subjected to extremes of exploitation here. I mean, I'm pro-player on the basic bargaining issues in this CBA negotiation, and beyond left wing politically, but to me this isn't about real human rights issues or anything like that, the NHL is just a form of entertainment, a luxury item to modern society... I like watching hockey, and have formed a personal identification with the Montreal Canadiens... but I really don't care who the players on the ice are or how they stack up against some other group of players in the past, future, or outside the league.

If anything, as a rambling aside, in terms of labour issues and societal impacts... if a replacement player league was up and running and all the rest of the non-player employees and "normal people" with small scale stakes in the business were back on their myriad jobs, I'd say that was a more important issue than worrying about the names on the back of the players' jerseys. Nobody is representing the ticket checkers or floor sweepers or zamboni drivers or waiters or whoever in the labour dispute. Put the replacement players on the ice, I'm satisfied as a non-judgemental Habs devotee looking for hockey entertainment and certain I'd find it, and also *more* satisfied on behalf of the unrepresented 99%ers associated at whatever remove with the industry as well.

(All while still accepting that replacement players are probably even less of an option for our team than they might be for others, just on labour laws, so still treating it all as one big fat hypothetical fantasy, of course.)
Great overall post. I agree with almost all of it.

I follow the Habs. Period. I love any player in a Habs uniform, and will boo him the second he plays for another team (or at least not cheer for him as much as before...it is impossible to boo Saku!). I would rather watch replacement players in a Habs jersey than no players in a Habs jersey.

I also would like to point out that there are plenty of players in other leagues at least as good as current "NHL Talent". There is no doubt that plenty of players in the minors or elsewhere could put up better numbers than Gomez, Komisarek, DiPietro, etc...if they were given a chance. Unfortunately, with guaranteed contracts, we get players who are no longer worth the money they are making keeping jobs from better players without contracts. I highly doubt most people would even notice any difference if replacement players were to be used by the NHL. We would all find our new favourites, new stars, new heroes, and new villains. We love (hate) Crosby today. 15 years from now, he will be a memory and we will love (hate) the new Kid on the block. Using replacement players will simply speed up the process.

If the owners were trying to completely screw over the players, I would argue against replacement players and be for the players. The owners asking for 50% of the HRR is a completely fair demand, as are their demands on other contractual processes to ensure fair competition among wealthy and poor franchises. The players are not some poor oppressed group of workers making peanuts. They will make millions throughout their careers and will be able to parlay those hockey careers into other money making opportunities throughout their lives, to one degree or another. If they do not want a fair split of the HRR, let them watch other players make a living in the NHL.

Bring on the replacement players so I can go watch my beloved Habs beat the damned Bruins!!!

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11-16-2012, 05:46 PM
  #600
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Edit: Sorry Kriss, I misunderstood. What I was disagreeing with was you're tuning out the Habs when they are bad, with NHL players. I don't do that. However we both agree that replacement players would be a travesty.
Don't get me wrong, I still watched the games last year, but I focused more on what players did individually. Was hoping to see guys like Eller be given more chances up front, but unfortunately our coach was absolutely clueless.
But I wasn't into it as much, which is only normal. If a girl wanted to come over during a hockey night, I didn't say no can do like I would usually with a more competitive team.

If there's replacement players, I doubt I would follow much of it.

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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Definintely interesting. It somehow never really occurred to me that so many people would see things so completely differently from the way I do on that. I watch hockey at all levels, have since I was a kid. I have been exclusively loyal as a Habs fan in the NHL, while nomadically following a variety of teams at lower levels. I can sort of see the union-based solidarity argument against supporting a replacement player team, that's more a political/philosophical decision and I think I can understand that angle even if I don't personally find it all that meaningful at the income levels of NHL players.

But I never figured people wouldn't watch just because they thought it somehow wasn't "the best" hockey it could be. There are players in the ECHL today who are better than players I cheered for as Habs in decades past. I just don't see how the relative quality of the players matters or how it would be a "travesty" or anything like that. The connection to the "Habs logo" is just of paramount importance to me.

Bringing in replacement players would be somewhat distasteful just from it being a union-busting technique, but really, it's a union of millionaires who had ample opportunity to continue being millionaires, so it's a little hard to get behind them on principle like you would for the more run-of-the-mill blue-collar unions of yesteryear. Nobody is being oppressed or really being subjected to extremes of exploitation here. I mean, I'm pro-player on the basic bargaining issues in this CBA negotiation, and beyond left wing politically, but to me this isn't about real human rights issues or anything like that, the NHL is just a form of entertainment, a luxury item to modern society... I like watching hockey, and have formed a personal identification with the Montreal Canadiens... but I really don't care who the players on the ice are or how they stack up against some other group of players in the past, future, or outside the league.

If anything, as a rambling aside, in terms of labour issues and societal impacts... if a replacement player league was up and running and all the rest of the non-player employees and "normal people" with small scale stakes in the business were back on their myriad jobs, I'd say that was a more important issue than worrying about the names on the back of the players' jerseys. Nobody is representing the ticket checkers or floor sweepers or zamboni drivers or waiters or whoever in the labour dispute. Put the replacement players on the ice, I'm satisfied as a non-judgemental Habs devotee looking for hockey entertainment and certain I'd find it, and also *more* satisfied on behalf of the unrepresented 99%ers associated at whatever remove with the industry as well.

(All while still accepting that replacement players are probably even less of an option for our team than they might be for others, just on labour laws, so still treating it all as one big fat hypothetical fantasy, of course.)
Well, that's for you only. You can't be oblivious to the fact the NHL would lose a lot of viewership if replacement players came around. There's no question about this.
There's only a little minority that might still follow the sport as much as they did with regular NHLers, even in big markets. Heck, even some strong habs fans that take time to post here regularly during a lockout wouldn't tune it all that much, me included.
It's not so much about caring about the Habs and not the names, it's about expecting NHL talent when watching games. If it's not NHL talent, I simply have other things I'd rather do.
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Originally Posted by vokiel View Post
http://www.rds.ca/hockey/chroniques/351369.html



And Ian White is what exactly? A not helpful whiny *****. Sorry about that
Well, he's not entirely wrong. Bettman is an idiot. He does exaggerate though, Bettman didn't do all wrong.

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