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11-16-2012, 10:34 AM
  #126
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Originally Posted by Old Navy Goat View Post
The irreplaceable skillset is strictly limited to the upper echelon players. There's plenty of other guys out there that can step in and replace your 3rd and 4th liners. If there was another football strike and they went the replacement route, except for the QBs and a couple elite running backs you would hardly see the difference in the game.
Disagree.

Watch an AHL game with guys primarily on AHL-only contracts. The skill and ability level just isn't the same.

Sure, you COULD fill up all 30 NHL teams with lower skill level players, but the product is going to suffer, and people aren't going to pay the same prices to watch that.

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11-16-2012, 10:40 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Old Navy Goat View Post
The irreplaceable skillset is strictly limited to the upper echelon players. There's plenty of other guys out there that can step in and replace your 3rd and 4th liners.
Have to disagree. For one, you've implicitly conceded that most, if not all, top-6 forwards would not be able to be adequately replaced by replacement-level players. That's quantifiably true, of course, as stats such as GVT (goals versus threshold, the hockey stat measuring how many goals more or less a player is worth compared to a replacement-level player) demonstrate that those players are far better than replacement players; surely you'd notice a difference between Drew Stafford and Mark Mancari, and if you can't then I'm not sure what to tell you. Presumably, you'd agree that top-4 defensemen would also be markedly better than those who replaced them. Even the better bottom-6 players are significantly better than the AHL veteran-types who'd be replacing them. Outside of guys like Cody McCormick, Matt Ellis, and Mike Weber, I think you'd see a serious dropoff in play.

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Originally Posted by Old Navy Goat View Post
If there was another football strike and they went the replacement route, except for the QBs and a couple elite running backs you would hardly see the difference in the game.
Not even close. Perhaps we've found the architect of the plan to throw replacement referees into NFL games.


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11-16-2012, 11:08 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
The players are getting their information from the NHLPA website, and an NHLPA phone app, according to their own statements. They're all seeing the same information. Many of the players reps have repeated this publicly for the last two months.
Who's responsible for exactly what information is promulgated through the website / app? Do you honestly think that Fehr isn't capable of promulgating what information he deems fit for general consumption vice everything even if it shows him in poor light? Information warfare has been around for ages, you let your constituents know what's best for them but spin anything else to your favor. The only truly unbiased way would be for a 3rd party negotiator to be present and then promulgate all the information to both sides.

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11-16-2012, 11:15 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Have to disagree. For one, you've implicitly conceded that most, if not all, top-6 forwards would not be able to be adequately replaced by replacement-level players. That's quantifiably true, of course, as stats such as GVT (goals versus threshold, the hockey stat measuring how many goals more or less a player is worth compared to a replacement-level player) demonstrate that those players are far better than replacement players; surely you'd notice a difference between Drew Stafford and Mark Mancari, and if you can't then I'm not sure what to tell you. Presumably, you'd agree that top-4 defensemen would also be markedly better than those who replaced them. Even the better bottom-6 players are significantly better than the AHL veteran-types who'd be replacing them. Outside of guys like Cody McCormick, Matt Ellis, and Mike Weber, I think you'd see a serious dropoff in play.



Not even close. Perhaps we've found the architect of the plan to throw replacement referees into NFL games.
I guess the real refs would have made better calls on some of those phantom pass interference calls last week versus the Patriots then, as we all know the real refs don't miss anything or ever make a wrong call.

I'm not saying that initially there wouldn't be a drop off in play as you'd need the younger players to step up into top 6 roles but you can't say that a Porter couldn't adequately replace the 3rd and 4th liners. Hell I'd rather see Foligno playing instead of Stafford.

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11-16-2012, 11:18 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Old Navy Goat View Post
Who's responsible for exactly what information is promulgated through the website / app? Do you honestly think that Fehr isn't capable of promulgating what information he deems fit for general consumption vice everything even if it shows him in poor light? Information warfare has been around for ages, you let your constituents know what's best for them but spin anything else to your favor. The only truly unbiased way would be for a 3rd party negotiator to be present and then promulgate all the information to both sides.
They've had player reps in the room during all of the formal negotiating sessions. (Something that didn't happen under Kelly according to many players.)

I haven't seen a single player make even a veiled comment about how they're not getting the same information the player reps in the room are getting. That obviously doesn't mean some don't feel that way, but I've yet to see a single comment like that.

There's not a shred of evidence to support your assertion that Fehr is hiding things.

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11-16-2012, 11:23 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
They've had player reps in the room during all of the formal negotiating sessions. (Something that didn't happen under Kelly according to many players.)

I haven't seen a single player make even a veiled comment about how they're not getting the same information the player reps in the room are getting. That obviously doesn't mean some don't feel that way, but I've yet to see a single comment like that.

There's not a shred of evidence to support your assertion that Fehr is hiding things.
I'm not saying that he is or isn't, I'm just saying that unless you have the same reps in every meeting or a 3rd party there's no guarantee that all the information is getting sent out. Also, the reps haven't been in every meeting as the 'secret squirrel' meetings between Daly and Fehr's brother were one on one. Also, lets face it, the players aren't exactly rocket scientists so I don't think it would be all that difficult to pull one over on them.

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11-16-2012, 11:33 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
Every public player comment disputes this. To a man they've all said Fehr has kept them very well informed.
1st of all, I am not a wiz at cutting and pasting links and text, etc. like Sabretip and the rest of you guys. I chunk thru threads systematically (top to bottom) w/o tagging things so it's way too much work to go back and line out all the links I've gone to and send them to you. But I'll forward a couple of items here to give you an idea of how my thinking on this has formed.

I'm mainly reading Pierre LeBrun, MacKenzie, Darren Dregar and others mainly, in the Canadian media because they care about this stuff. And picking up a few tweets here or there.

Now I agree with your closing statement... that's what the players have said publically - well informed by Fehr.. way better than the last Director . But that doesn't mean they are being given the full facts with which to make up their own minds. It appears to me that they are being given talking points. (Just like after game press interviews... we gotta skate harder, do all the little things, finish our checks, shoot more...), etc.. The players all sound a bit programmed to me.

Here's a link/narrative that I though spoke volumes about the situation......

Piere Lebrun. Time to fish or cut bait:
http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...l-be-permanent

Know this: The long-term damage incurred by this league and industry canít be undone, at this point. ...

And so at this point all that remains is salvaging whatís left of a chance to play hockey this season...

The NHL has informed the NHLPA that talks wonít resume unless/until the players have new ideas or a new proposal to reignite things. Owners donít want to move an inch at this point. Theyíre furious that their $211 million "make-whole" offer was rebuffed so easily....

NHLPA executive director Don Fehr.... has done a "masterful" job so far in terms of managing this lockout, getting the league to move on key issues such as revenue sharing, and keeping his players on board through it all. Heís also frustrated the league to no end. But Fehrís grading is far from complete. His most important test is coming. Unless Iím completely misreading the tea leaves, I canít think of very many NHL players who are willing to sacrifice an entire season of hockey just so they can make a point to commissioner Gary Bettman.

..... if Iím an NHL player, I demand that Fehr over the next 2-3 weeks cut his losses and try to make the best deal possible from whatís left on the table. ........

And hereís where the read on Fehr gets widely different takes. On the one hand, there are people who believe Fehr has always shown an ability to feel the pulse of his membership and if itís a deal they want, heíll deliver one when the time is right.

But there are others who doubt his true intentions.

"I think he wants to rewrite labor negotiations; the game is not his priority," said one NHL team executive.


On the topic of Union Structure, Communication, Player awareness and statement
I'll give you the link to the following discussion thread:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...282733&page=13

For those who don't want or have the time to drive there, here's a segment of the dialog -


Quote:
Isn't the criticism of the NHL's structure the fact that there is an Exec Committee that sets strategy for 30 teams, who sit back and watch in silence?

That's been the PA's criticism of the NHL's structure. Several GMs and team executives have commented that Bettman gives them a report every day and that they vote on whether to shift course on A B or C if it's important enough to them.

And, in any event, Bettman's herding wolves. If the wolves don't like the shepherd's shepherding they can and will gang up and eat him.

This is also irrelevant to what Cox is saying.



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I think putting as few layers in between constituents and their leadership structure as possible leaves the power where it needs to be -- in the players hands. There are 30 reps who can demand anything they want at any time.

You can think that, but you'd be wrong. Don Fehr doesn't sit in a room and jot down strategy with 30 guys that know a thing or two about collective bargaining but aren't loyal to him personally. He sits in a room with his brother.

He doesn't take the players' reps, or a smaller subcommittee into his confidence and tell them everything. He gives 30 people briefings in which he says what he wants them to know.

He involves 5 or 6 players in the process, but rarely the same 5 or 6 at the same time, which results in blocks of 2% of the players knowing 80% of what was up (if they even understand concepts like corporate risk aversion) during a 10% block of negotiations. They, and everyone else, only know what he tells them the rest of the time.

The result of this is that you have guys like Crosby, who has been more involved than the vast majority of players, thinking he's fighting the NHL because it has asked for entry level contracts to be extended to 5 years, which would be unfair to a Connor McDavid. Has guys like Ovechkin thinking he's fighting against a salary rollback (not escrow, a rollback). The former never was true and the latter hasn't been true since August.

Fehr is a single point of failure through which all information flows. Goodenow had Saskin and Linden as a check against this. Fehr has nobody in this position.

Now, you might believe that Fehr's some type of benevolent angel who can be trusted with power absent a check against it, who tells nothing but the truth and the whole truth 100% of the time. History says placing that degree of trust in anyone with this type of power in this type of structure (1/2>3-604)is incredibly foolish. When Rome did this, the Republic was destroyed. Hell, NHLPA history suggests this level of trust in a union head is foolish. The last time they allowed this, Eagleson sold them out.



Quote:
Why can't the observers accept that the players may very well KNOW exactly how much money they're going to lose this year? What they don't want to give up is their ability to maximize their earnings individually as soon as they can, and at a time when they're most valuable.

Because that's not what they say. What they say is they're fighting things like "honoring the dollar value of their contracts" and "preserving contract rights." When pressed for details, they define the former as "no 13% rollback" and the latter as "entry level deals shouldn't be extended," which are not actual, current issues in this negotiation.

If they're misinformed, it's because Fehr misinformed them.


I'm naturally skeptical about what I'm told, read or hear. Esp. statement for public consumption. And that includes both sides. I've found that reality is usually something different (even though that can be spun too) and that the way people gain and use power (and operate) speaks volumes about their integrity and degree of rightiousness (and trust).

What the players present sounds too regimented to me and as others in the thread have pointed out, they've (Crosby, et al) have gotten things wrong. Maybe because they mis-interpreted, didn't understand or perhaps, were mis-informed. The way the current NHLPA leadership acquired its power and seems to operate leads me to the conclusion that Fehr is Der Fuhrer and he's successfully divided and compartmentalized the Union such that he and brother Steve are prertty much absolute control.

And the membership is being driven off the cliff (Esp. the journeyman players).

Sorry, I can't present this all as concisely as JoshJull and company can.

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11-16-2012, 11:37 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Old Navy Goat View Post
I guess the real refs would have made better calls on some of those phantom pass interference calls last week versus the Patriots then, as we all know the real refs don't miss anything or ever make a wrong call.
Strawman. On the whole, the officiating is far better now than it was with the replacements. And I don't think one would get much argument in most circles that the on-field product is better now, too, because the game has a better flow now that there are fewer official conferences.

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Originally Posted by Old Navy Goat View Post
I'm not saying that initially there wouldn't be a drop off in play as you'd need the younger players to step up into top 6 roles but you can't say that a Porter couldn't adequately replace the 3rd and 4th liners. Hell I'd rather see Foligno playing instead of Stafford.
Wait a second, Foligno is as locked out as Stafford is. Replacement players do not include the top NHL prospects currently playing in the AHL and elsewhere--anyways, Foligno is, at this point, an NHL player because he was going to be on the Opening Night roster. Scab players would be the Corey Lockes, Alex Girouxs and Jason Krogs of the world. That is, the career minor-leaguers and players playing overseas.

And regarding your Porter example, in a scab league he'd be a top-6 player. He doesn't remotely resemble a top-6 NHL player.

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11-16-2012, 11:44 AM
  #134
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I'm sorry, but I refuse to engage in any argument predicated on 'the players are too dumb'.

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11-16-2012, 12:03 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Strawman. On the whole, the officiating is far better now than it was with the replacements. And I don't think one would get much argument in most circles that the on-field product is better now, too, because the game has a better flow now that there are fewer official conferences.



Wait a second, Foligno is as locked out as Stafford is. Replacement players do not include the top NHL prospects currently playing in the AHL and elsewhere--anyways, Foligno is, at this point, an NHL player because he was going to be on the Opening Night roster. Scab players would be the Corey Lockes, Alex Girouxs and Jason Krogs of the world. That is, the career minor-leaguers and players playing overseas.

And regarding your Porter example, in a scab league he'd be a top-6 player. He doesn't remotely resemble a top-6 NHL player.
I don't consider any player in the AHL whether a top prospect or not to be a sure-fire NHLer, and I would think that a young player that hasn't made any real coin to be one of the first to cross the line for the bigger payday and a chance to establish themselves. Its a league full of mercenaries so I sure wouldn't expect much loyalty from the guys trying to establish themselves to the older players.

Under your premise, no player that has signed a NHL contract whether they're overseas, in juniors or the minors would be eligible which I don't quite agree with.

As for the NFL refs, yes the games have more flow now than the beginning of the season, however there's still continual mistakes but they're not highlighted as much by the commentators ie Gruden that pointed out everything he thought they missed but doesn't say crap about any bad calls now unlike Fouts that was quite verbose about the poor officiating last week.

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11-16-2012, 12:04 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
I'm sorry, but I refuse to engage in any argument predicated on 'the players are too dumb'.
Would you prefer under educated which the vast majority of the NHL players are.

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11-16-2012, 12:35 PM
  #137
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I know I've made the argument before that I don't trust the owner's math that they're losing money. This piece from the Edmonton Journal provides you with some evidence of that.

http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/201...at-lose-money/

If you dig into it, they detail some of the reasons why the Panthers, who allege to lose over $7M a year, are actually profiting over $8M per.

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11-16-2012, 01:11 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Old Navy Goat View Post
I don't consider any player in the AHL whether a top prospect or not to be a sure-fire NHLer, and I would think that a young player that hasn't made any real coin to be one of the first to cross the line for the bigger payday and a chance to establish themselves. Its a league full of mercenaries so I sure wouldn't expect much loyalty from the guys trying to establish themselves to the older players.

Under your premise, no player that has signed a NHL contract whether they're overseas, in juniors or the minors would be eligible which I don't quite agree with.
Look at the MLB scabs. They did not include top minor-league prospects, and neither would a scab NHL. Further, I'd argue that young players would be the last to cross the picket line given that they'd have the most to lose under the new contract rules.

The NHL would never consider going with replacements because they know it isn't a viable alternative.

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11-16-2012, 01:58 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
I'm sorry, but I refuse to engage in any argument predicated on 'the players are too dumb'.
Fine with me. I didn't say they were dumb but rather, not completely informed.

The reason players have agents is that they are athletes in a legal world. So they need representation and they trust their representatives to look after their affairs so they can concentrate on THEIR OWN profession - which is not contract law.

That's smart, not dumb.

So is getting a 2nd opinion when they need significant medical attention.

However, I think it's also smart to weigh and validate everything one gets told esp. if ones short window to earn a big salary might be threatened or lost in a test of wills and ego which may or may not be in the players brief career window of opportunity.

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11-16-2012, 02:07 PM
  #140
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Wasn't responding to you, sorry. I forgot to quote. I was responding to ONG's assertion that players weren't 'rocket scientists', and would be easy to fool.

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11-16-2012, 04:34 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Old Navy Goat View Post
Would you prefer under educated which the vast majority of the NHL players are.
I don't think it has much to do with education. It's their life experience. They're told how great they are from a young age. They're coddled and protected from having to deal with the real world. They leave home in their teens to develop their skills. As a result many are naive, spoiled, egotistical, and immature. They're easily manipulated by those who know how to push the right buttons.

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11-17-2012, 03:15 PM
  #142
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Ian White is an idiot. He thinks all lock outs are Gary Bettman's fault. Espn article about how White called Bettman an idiot.

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11-17-2012, 03:45 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
I know I've made the argument before that I don't trust the owner's math that they're losing money. This piece from the Edmonton Journal provides you with some evidence of that.

http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/201...at-lose-money/

If you dig into it, they detail some of the reasons why the Panthers, who allege to lose over $7M a year, are actually profiting over $8M per.
No they're not.

If you dig into the article, to use your words, that should be clear. In your defense, the writer did an incredibly poor job laying things out. I think that was largely due to his obvious misunderstanding of the topic. There is also an update at the end of the article where the writer admits misreading the audit that was used. The writer was confusing AOC's profitability as being SSE's thus muddling the picture.

The Florida Panthers are a division of Sunrise Sports and Entertainment LLC or SSE for short. SSE has another division, AOC or Arena Operating Company (boy were they creative with this name ). AOC operates the arena for the 70-100 events that take place there each year on top of the 41 Panther home games. AOC, as the article points out, is incredibly profitable.

Basically SSE as whole made money while its Florida Panthers division lost money. The Panthers are a lost leader of sorts as the anchor tenant of the arena.

Quote:
In 2007, Forbes estimated the Panthers lost $7.1 million while AOC reported a profit of $9.5 million. That would mean, with the assumptions above, a $2.4 million profit for SSE. In 2006, Forbes estimated a $1.9 million loss while AOC had huge profits of $11.7 million. That's $9.8 million in pure profit for SSE in a year the Panthers themselves reported a loss.
The Sabres are set up in a very similar fashion.


One of the main reasons the Thrashers had to relocate and were losing so much money was due to not controlling the arena. I believe the Hawks do. A hockey team as a stand alone entity has a very hard time making a profit because of how gate driven the revenue streams are for each team but their player costs are driven by league wide factors.. There are only a very small handful of markets that could make it as stand alone entities.


Last edited by joshjull: 11-17-2012 at 04:10 PM.
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11-17-2012, 05:11 PM
  #144
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They've had player reps in the room during all of the formal negotiating sessions. (Something that didn't happen under Kelly according to many players.)
What?

There were no CBA negotiations under Paul Kelly. How on earth could he keep players in the dark on talks that weren't happening? The only players that criticized Kelly were the dirtbags behind the coup and that wasn't "many" it was a handful.


Paul Kelly, in his attempts to clean up the NHLPA, had dug up evidence of financial shenanigans by the likes of Lindros and Pulver. He decided to do an audit and investigate the NHLPA's books from previous years looking for other improprieties. Not long after Kelly decided to do this is when Lindros and Pulver along with others, moved to remove Kelly.

What happened back then was the players were kept in the dark about why Paul Kelly was removed. Many players back then were shocked or pissed or both and wanted answers. So did many agents. Guess what? The current NHLPA leadership will not release the report on Kelly's dismissal. What a shocker

Did you actually read the articles in question? I'm thinking not.

Are you actually going to dump on Hall of Fame sports writer Russ Conway? He is the guy whose research for his book, Game Misconduct: Alan Eagleson and the Corruption of Hockey, was used to bring Eagleson to justice. He knows the NHLPA inside and out and was the one to refer to Paul Kelly is the first "clean" executive director of the NHLPA. Conway also compares Fehr's tenure to Eagleson's in the level of control the Executive Director has and how so few players are willing to take him to task.

I'm not sure if its naivetť on your part in that you think the best of the folks running the NHLPA and feel they will always do whats best for the members. Or maybe its from just not reading the material but the NHLPA has been run by some pretty slimy folks for most of its existence. Unfortunately whats best for the general body is not always at the forefront of the agenda for the NHLPA's leadership.

And that includes some of their player reps which leads me to your following comments.....

Quote:
I haven't seen a single player make even a veiled comment about how they're not getting the same information the player reps in the room are getting. That obviously doesn't mean some don't feel that way, but I've yet to see a single comment like that.

There's not a shred of evidence to support your assertion that Fehr is hiding things
The players are getting Fehr's interpretation of things as well as his advice on what to do in response to the owner's proposals. The player reps in the room aren't shaping policy nor are they dictating how things are handled. That would be the Fehr brothers because thats what they're there for.

Controlling the message to the players from the meetings is how you control the body as a whole. The players trust the Fehr brothers and the reps in the room to always act in the general body's best interest. As we've seen in the NHLPA's pathetic history, blindly trusting their leadership has blown up in the player's faces far more often than not.


The following, as pointed out in a previous post, does a good job of spelling out how Fehr controls the message.

Don Fehr doesn't sit in a room and jot down strategy with 30 guys that know a thing or two about collective bargaining but aren't loyal to him personally. He sits in a room with his brother.

He doesn't take the players' reps, or a smaller subcommittee into his confidence and tell them everything. He gives 30 people briefings in which he says what he wants them to know.

He involves 5 or 6 players in the process, but rarely the same 5 or 6 at the same time, which results in blocks of 2% of the players knowing 80% of what was up (if they even understand concepts like corporate risk aversion) during a 10% block of negotiations. They, and everyone else, only know what he tells them the rest of the time.

The result of this is that you have guys like Crosby, who has been more involved than the vast majority of players, thinking he's fighting the NHL because it has asked for entry level contracts to be extended to 5 years, which would be unfair to a Connor McDavid. Has guys like Ovechkin thinking he's fighting against a salary rollback (not escrow, a rollback). The former never was true and the latter hasn't been true since August.

Fehr is a single point of failure through which all information flows. Goodenow had Saskin and Linden as a check against this. Fehr has nobody in this position.

Now, you might believe that Fehr's some type of benevolent angel who can be trusted with power absent a check against it, who tells nothing but the truth and the whole truth 100% of the time. History says placing that degree of trust in anyone with this type of power in this type of structure (1/2>3-604)is incredibly foolish. When Rome did this, the Republic was destroyed. Hell, NHLPA history suggests this level of trust in a union head is foolish. The last time they allowed this, Eagleson sold them out.


Its not about players being stupid. Its about the reality that the players aren't labor lawyers or accountants. So things need to be explained to them. The folks doing the explaining can have a very large influence on how the players perceived things and how things are shaped.


Dan Cleary said in the summer that if they (the players) had to sit out a 1-2 years to fix things they were willing to do it. I'm fairly confident the overwhelming majority of players don't feel that way. But as we saw with how the hardline corrupt cabal went about ousting the NHLPA's first clean leader, Paul Kelly. For a small cabal its not about doing whats best for the general body but about sticking it to Bettman and the owners. I'm hoping I'm wrong and this works itself out in the next 2-6 weeks. But I've been concerned by that hard line cabal having an inordinate amount of influence. You need to remember that cabal includes some player reps and a small handful of players. Its not simply Fehr telling people what to do. As the NHLPA's history has shown us, its not hard at all for a group like that to control the union.


Last edited by joshjull: 11-17-2012 at 06:28 PM.
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11-17-2012, 05:45 PM
  #145
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Speak of the devil......

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL.../20360416.html

Quote:
“Mine is going to differ from someone on the owner’s side, that’s for sure,” said Lindros, who retired in November of 2007 following a career that was cut short by injuries. “There’s nothing the players are getting out of this (prospective) agreement. They’re giving. It’s just how much are they going to give. I’m a bit frustrated with it.”

Lindros can’t believe that after getting a salary cap and significant rollback in 2005 that the owners are asking players to take less money once again, especially after watching record revenues grow $1 billion since the last lockout.

“The players are willing to go to 50% (of hockey related revenues), but they want their contracts honoured,” Lindros said. “If someone signs a deal, stick with the deal. I don’t think that’s too much to ask. I hope they can get it fixed. We miss hockey.”
I highly doubt Lindros will be attacked on twitter by current NHLPA members like Recchi was

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11-17-2012, 05:51 PM
  #146
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ie. Chris Phillips was one of those chirping Recchi; Recchi "uninformed" when it comes to CBA according to Phillips:
Quote:
Is Mark Recchi angling for a job with the NHL or with an NHL team?

Ottawa Senators defenceman Chris Phillips was wondering aloud about that possibility Wednesday, when asked about Recchiís comments that players should accept the NHLís latest offer to end the NHL lockout. Recchi, the now retired feisty winger who played 24 years in the league, told the Boston Globe Tuesday that from here on in, the offers are only going to get worse.

ďI guess I would say itís an uninformed answer, unless heís now tied in with ownership somewhere or wants to get involved with ownership and trying to take that side,Ē said Phillips, the Senators player representative. ďUnless youíre on the calls and know whatís going on all the time, I donít know what those comments are based on. Because heís not involved.Ē

Phillips says itís possible that the NHL has already tabled its best offer, but he doesnít believe thatís the case.
New voices needed in labor talks; time for moderates on both sides to shift the conversation before it's too late:
Quote:
As the lockout drags on -- the latest news is that commissioner Gary Bettman wants a two-week break from talks, according to sources -- there are increasing whispers that moderates on both sides would much rather come to an agreement than see another NHL season go down the drain.

Problem is, these moderates are not at the negotiating table and their opinions don't seem to be driving the talks. How else do you explain such a lack of progress that NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly said he was more discouraged now than at any other point in the negotiations?
Quote:
This scribe has spoken to various NHL players throughout the lockout, and often the players have been asking what's going on instead of the writer learning details from the players. The NHLPA continues to preach transparency, and Fehr vehemently defended himself against NHL accusations that he wasn't relaying all of what has been discussed inside the negotiating meetings.

An NHL player who was on the last teleconference held by Fehr with the players differs with Fehr's assessment. In a conversation with ESPNBoston.com, the player wondered whether players who aren't in attendance at the negotiations have been privy to all the information and details of each proposal that has been made.

"In the last conference call, a player asked Don why he was learning details of the NHL's last proposal through the media and not via Don or the players in attendance," the player told ESPNBoston.com. "Don and some other players called that player out and basically embarrassed him for asking that."

Instead of being shouted down, this player should stand as an example of what's necessary to move the needle in these negotiations: More players need to press their leadership on the importance of not losing any more time. They've been too passive in counting on Fehr's judgment to guide them through this mess. More players should be asking questions. More players should be speaking up.

With the negotiating process at such a do-or-die point, would it hurt for players like Bruins defenseman Andrew Ference -- who has expressed unwavering support for Fehr since helping him become executive director -- to come home from Europe and stand by their comrades in the meetings?

Now is the time for all opinions (popular or not) to be heard and respected, not just those that have been heard regularly. It's time for new voices to enter the discussion. Instead of remaining anonymous for this story, that unnamed player could've helped the cause and stood up for the player who was called out for asking questions.

It's time for the NHLPA to act like a real union and be open to other opinions, not just the stubborn ones currently guiding the talks.

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11-17-2012, 06:15 PM
  #147
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^^^^^^^^


Sadly, this does not surprise me.


Last edited by joshjull: 11-17-2012 at 06:29 PM.
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11-18-2012, 02:10 AM
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Navy Goat View Post
Would you prefer under educated which the vast majority of the NHL players are.
I am just curious to wear you find the statistics on this? There is a big difference between, uneducated, street educated, dumb, idiot, ect.....

I read the posts on this forum and well it is sad to see because a player speaks out about Bettman that makes him stupid. Letīs put every quote you have put on these boards under a microscope and we will see how smart you turn out to be.

I am not defending anyone but lets look in the mirror before we start drawing conclusions....

With White he does not see the financial implications from the owners side with Bettman running things he only sees the Players side.

Just ask Hostess the twinkie makerīs employees how that works!


Last edited by heartsabres*: 11-18-2012 at 02:21 AM.
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11-18-2012, 11:34 AM
  #149
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Did you actually read the articles in question? I'm thinking not.
Yes, I have.

You win Josh. I had a brain fart on the Kelly thing, will freely admit.

I'm sick and tired of being belittled and sniped at because I happen to take a different stance on these issues as you. I'm not stupid, I can read.

I won't comment further in this or any further CBA related thread. Good day sir.

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11-18-2012, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
I am just curious to wear you find the statistics on this? There is a big difference between, uneducated, street educated, dumb, idiot, ect.....
Let me clarify, when I made the 'rocket scientist, under educated' remarks its simply because the vast majority of the NHL players have little to no higher education. They graduate from the CHL and move on to the AHL / NHL with nary a thought to university. Obviously you have some players that came through the NCAA and they'll have a few years of education or possibly a degree but compared to a league like the NFL where every locker room has quite a few guys with degrees and some with advanced ones, you're just not seeing it in the NHL.

They're trusting other people with similar educations to disperse advice and opinions from two snake oil charmers in the Fehr brothers. If I were a player, I'd would sure as hell request that my agent represented me at the meetings, especially since their bottom line is directly tied into my bottom line, and they're just a little more conversant in contract law than I am. Especially for the players signed with major representation, not only would I expect my team's player rep to be at every meeting but I would request an attorney from my agency to be there also.

Being a businessman with a modicum of education and life experience I'm quite aware of my limitations and call on outside resources to supplement any areas that I'm lacking in. For example with the current deal that I'm trying to finalize, I've had contracts looked over with a fine tooth comb by attorneys, I've had a market analysis done, a cost analysis accomplished through a 3rd party and a CPA to go through their books to ensure I'm getting what I think I'm getting (non-disclosure agreement or I would be more specific). Unlike with the NHL players, I don't have a finite career as a businessman...I can keep making money until the day I die (albeit I can't 'work' anymore) so the time I've spent on this deal if it doesn't come to fruition isn't a big thing as I can recoup the time/money spent with a different deal, however as a player I sure as hell can't recoup a year out of my playing career or the money lost.

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