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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Eric Lindros Speaks Out On NHL Lockout

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Old
11-16-2012, 12:41 PM
  #26
CpatainCanuck
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“There’s nothing the players are getting out of this (prospective) agreement. They’re giving. It’s just how much are they going to give. I’m a bit frustrated with it.”
This kind of talk really makes me shake my head.

What are the players getting out of this agreement? How about nearly $1,500,000,000 next year? The ability to become multi millionaires playing the sport you say you love?

The way some of these union talking heads talk you'd think the players were victims of exploitive robber barons a century ago instead of some of the most privileged people on the planet.

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11-16-2012, 12:42 PM
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Ironic that Lindros made those comments at the MTS Iceplex in Winnipeg.

Like Quebec, his parents would never have allowed him to play there.

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11-16-2012, 12:42 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Only the players themselves are in a position to decide whether an offer is "fair" or not.
... pretty much. Is 50% even fair? If Im an owner in the mid-to-low-range within the league Im not thinkin so. If Im a player, absolutely. If Im an owner in the upper echelon's, Im disturbed about all the money Ive lost and will lose if the entire seasons wiped out. Ultimately with the huge disparities between the top & bottom rungs in our 30 team league, it's just not gonna matter. 50% is too much or too little depending on whatever step on the ladder you find yourself sitting. Record revenues does not equate to record profits. So lets say the players go for it, accept the rest of the contractual issues, well, Im afraid we'll be right back here again in 2017-18.

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11-16-2012, 12:43 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
As J Wellington Wimpy articulated once upon a time, quite astutely, "I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today."

Time value of money and the risk to revenue by owner-sponsored work stoppages notwithstanding.




You know I have expensive taste.
They offered with interest, not enough to make whole, but it was a starting point but the PA just came back with the same guaranteed increases.

if all they wanted was 50/50+ honored contracts, they could have made an offer back to adjust the proposal. There are numbers with which the make whole concept would work, but they want it all plus more right now.

If that's what they want, then they can sit until they get it if they like but it really makes their "we want to play, but honor our contracts" stance seem disingenuous.

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11-16-2012, 12:44 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Only the players themselves are in a position to decide whether an offer is "fair" or not.
Not true. It's the fans' money that we are talking about. Of course, with no NHL hockey games, conversations at the water cooler, at dinner etc. have broken down to NHL CBA discussions in Canada. Almost always, the popular sentiment is that there is something wrong with our society when we as consumers allow our sports heroes to be better compensated than our doctors.

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11-16-2012, 12:51 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
The Union is suppose to get the best possible deal for the players. Whether that includes GAINS for the players or managing how bad the loss is depends on the factors involved. The NHL is a league that is not big in the US, teams losing money, etc etc etc we've all been through this 1000 times..

What if Fehr keeps this BS up and they lose a season? Revenue projections go down. The offers get worse. Are the players gunna keep asking to GAIN then? If so, we may never see hockey again.

The sense of entitlement by the players is sickening.

Why hasn't the NHL proposed 20% of HRR and not bothered with RS then?

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Originally Posted by Deebo View Post
They offered with interest, not enough to make whole, but it was a starting point but the PA just came back with the same guaranteed increases.

if all they wanted was 50/50+ honored contracts, they could have made an offer back to adjust the proposal. There are numbers with which the make whole concept would work, but they want it all plus more right now.

If that's what they want, then they can sit until they get it if they like but it really makes their "we want to play, but honor our contracts" stance seem disingenuous.

Do you think if the PA accepted the 50/50, this would be over?

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11-16-2012, 12:53 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Guardian17 View Post
Ironic that Lindros made those comments at the MTS Iceplex in Winnipeg.

Like Quebec, his parents would never have allowed him to play there.

Perhaps Lindros's parents understood economics. The biggest stars make the most money in the biggest markets.

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11-16-2012, 12:53 PM
  #33
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... pretty much. Is 50% even fair? If Im an owner in the mid-to-low-range within the league Im not thinkin so. If Im a player, absolutely. If Im an owner in the upper echelon's, Im disturbed about all the money Ive lost and will lose if the entire seasons wiped out. Ultimately with the huge disparities between the top & bottom rungs in our 30 team league, it's just not gonna matter. 50% is too much or too little depending on whatever step on the ladder you find yourself sitting. Record revenues does not equate to record profits. So lets say the players go for it, accept the rest of the contractual issues, well, Im afraid we'll be right back here again in 2017-18.
Unfortunately, I agree that we will be back here at the end of the next CBA. The issue is: what are the alternatives? Many have been shot around on here but literally 1 other has been proposed in real negotiations. That would be de-linked revenue structures, which really doesn't change how things are played now either. Additionally, I still think the de-linked nonsense is overblown but the way that some media portrays the offer, it would be take a fool of a businessman to continue to front all the risk especially after a debacle like we are in right now. Use of the median for salary cap/floor calculations would be nice, but both sides are simply looking to get their pound of flesh and move on. Shame really.

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11-16-2012, 12:53 PM
  #34
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I know it's not a real interview but more a reporter throwing a question at him while he did something in public, but I don't see what is interesting about Lindros using the same talking points everyone else from the player side used a month ago.

If anything, it's an illustration of how few things there are in this conflict that are newsworthy.

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11-16-2012, 12:55 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by CerebralGenesis View Post
Just one of the ones holding the gun and get out sign though?

I'm not going to defend his activities with the PA prior to Fehr being hired. However, there is no connection between the Saskin-gate, Kelly-gate and whatever Lindros et al. did and the current lockout. Fehr wasn't around for the last two of Gary's Proskauer Rose designed lockouts.

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11-16-2012, 12:55 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Perhaps Lindros's parents understood economics. The biggest stars make the most money in the biggest markets.
Damn their business sense and looking out for family, their son is just supposed to be a trained meathead for our entertainment.

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11-16-2012, 12:55 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Why hasn't the NHL proposed 20% of HRR and not bothered with RS then?
Because the NHL is interested in making a deal. The PA is not.

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11-16-2012, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Why do they need a union if there is no gain or protection of their contracting rights?

Why doesn't the NHL just make it 20% of HRR. That indeed would guarantee that every single team would be 'profitable' plus they could completely dispense with revenue sharing. Come now, this is the best proposal yet. Why haven't they made it?
Good question indeed. I'd do exactly that if I was an owner. But maybe these owners have some decency

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11-16-2012, 12:57 PM
  #39
Erik Estrada
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Originally Posted by Koss View Post
Not true. It's the fans' money that we are talking about. Of course, with no NHL hockey games, conversations at the water cooler, at dinner etc. have broken down to NHL CBA discussions in Canada. Almost always, the popular sentiment is that there is something wrong with our society when we as consumers allow our sports heroes to be better compensated than our doctors.
Except it's not a problem with our society, it's a problem with human nature. Top athletes are always compensated more than more useful jobs. That's life...

The top athlete in Ancient Rome made more than any athlete today:

"Struck calculated that Diocles’ s total earnings of 35,863,120 sesterces were enough to provide grain for the entire population of Rome for one year, or to fund the Roman Army at its height for more than two months.

“By today’s standards that last figure, assuming the apt comparison is what it takes to pay the wages of the American armed forces for the same period, would cash out to about $15 billion,” wrote Struck."


http://news.discovery.com/history/hi...ient-rome.html

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11-16-2012, 01:00 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by CpatainCanuck View Post
This kind of talk really makes me shake my head.

What are the players getting out of this agreement? How about nearly $1,500,000,000 next year? The ability to become multi millionaires playing the sport you say you love?

The way some of these union talking heads talk you'd think the players were victims of exploitive robber barons a century ago instead of some of the most privileged people on the planet.
By privileged you mean worked their ass off for 10 years to make the NHL right?

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11-16-2012, 01:00 PM
  #41
CpatainCanuck
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Why hasn't the NHL proposed 20% of HRR and not bothered with RS then?
What is your meaning behind this post? Are you trying to somehow portray the nhl as being unreasonable in their current offer? If so you're going about it the wrong way.


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Do you think if the PA accepted the 50/50, this would be over?
Not quite: there are apparently a few other issues to be sorted out, primarily concerning contract rights. However, that shouldn't take long to sort out once the skeleton of the deal is decided upon.

That's the problem you see: Bettman and CO. want to negotiate the foundation and skeleton of the CBA before fleshing out the smaller details concerning contracts. Fehr and CO. want the NHL to give up all their bargaining chips without negotiating the big chip. This is one of the reasons Fehr is getting slagged by so many.

If contract rights are so important to the players, use them as a chip: agree to the NHL's salary structure on condition of retaining certain key contract rights. That's the way to a resolution.

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11-16-2012, 01:03 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
The sense of entitlement by the players is sickening.
... though Im pro-player, I agree with this sentiment. Almost impossible not to. The marked gains of the last 45 years, accelerating really at breakneck speeds since 94 in forcing many a franchise to its knee's through the decade that followed completely out of control. Whats followed since the 04 Lockout with supposed controls & brakes installed faulty, all the while with the basement & ceiling rising, the culture of entitlement within the dressing rooms and the agents offices simply growing stronger as league revenues increased. On the one hand I do sympathize & empathize with the leagues position, on the other, find much left wonting in terms of their critical thought processes & strategic positioning in amicably and effectively finding a solution without confrontation.

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11-16-2012, 01:04 PM
  #43
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The frustrating thing for me is the sense of entitlement on the part of the players. They are "giving back" things that they shouldn't have gotten in the first place IMO. (And I realize it was part of the last CBA negotiation - but speaking from a high level perspective).
Why not? It was negotiated, and truth be told, there are people who have suggested that the lowering of the UFA age was something the big markets would have supported last time, knowing this would give them access to the best players far sooner. There was no doubt in their mind, despite the cap and linkage, that the better players would be easier to pry under the new CBA. Of course, those people were labeled as looney because the cap was going to protect all the weak teams.

I know I said there was no point in losing a year to stop 5 teams from overpaying for 35 yr old vets.
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The owners provided the audited financial statements for all the organizations. The NHLPA has had plenty of time to have their experts go through them, and if they found any "creative" accounting, it would be a serious discussion point for these CBA negotiations. Because we haven't heard anythying, I'll assume that it is true that most teams (saw reports of 18) are either losing or aren't making money.
This is false. You're citing a figure from Forbes, who btw, also have not seen the audited reports. McGuire did say he 'knew' that 13 teams were losing money. YMMV-- but that's not an assumption I'd make. Furthermore, the PA has pushed for targeted assistance, which would indicate they found something in the financial records and offered to do their part.


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IMO - when service company's don't make net profits, the employee's (who are typically the biggest cost) either make less or are let go. As someone who has been laid off in my past - I totally realize it sucks, but that's the way this works. And when players have seen huge growth in their average salary (and for the most part have no other real options), I don't understand why they're not negotiating. (And playing for 10% of their NHL salary in Europe isn't a real long term option. Except for the super-star in the KHL, the only change for being set for life for most NHL'ers is playing in the NHL.)
30 different companies. 30 different profit and loss statements. Many are not losing money, and depending on which source you choose to believe, more than half are NOT losing money.


Last edited by Fugu: 11-16-2012 at 03:11 PM. Reason: year
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Old
11-16-2012, 01:04 PM
  #44
CpatainCanuck
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Originally Posted by TheGoalJudge View Post
By privileged you mean worked their ass off for 10 years to make the NHL right?
I was more going for making more money than 99% of the population, making 10, 100, 1000 times the average income of people in Canada or the world.

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11-16-2012, 01:05 PM
  #45
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I'm not going to defend his activities with the PA prior to Fehr being hired. However, there is no connection between the Saskin-gate, Kelly-gate and whatever Lindros et al. did and the current lockout. Fehr wasn't around for the last two of Gary's Proskauer Rose designed lockouts.
Oh c'mon now. I don't mind disagreeing about the current CBA since there isn't a right answer and the last chapters are still yet to come, but to say Lindros had no part of the previous tenures is lying to yourself. We will never find the smoking gun, maybe until one of the parties involved writes a book before dying, but it is nearly impossible to call Lindros innocent at any point.

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11-16-2012, 01:07 PM
  #46
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... though Im pro-player, I agree with this sentiment. Almost impossible not to. The marked gains of the last 45 years, accelerating really at breakneck speeds since 94 in forcing many a franchise to its knee's through the decade that followed completely out of control. Whats followed since the 04 Lockout with supposed controls & brakes installed faulty, all the while with the basement & ceiling rising, the culture of entitlement within the dressing rooms and the agents offices simply growing stronger as league revenues increased. On the one hand I do sympathize & empathize with the leagues position, on the other, find much left wonting in terms of their critical thought processes & strategic positioning in amicably and effectively finding a solution without confrontation.
Agreed with most of this, except I am certainly not pro-player. Add in my questions about Fehr's commitment to making hockey grow or interest at all and that will sum up my thoughts of the previous couple months.

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11-16-2012, 01:07 PM
  #47
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What is your meaning behind this post? Are you trying to somehow portray the nhl as being unreasonable in their current offer? If so you're going about it the wrong way.
.

They need the union. It was suggested that the PA just rubber stamp any NHL condition/demand. Well, if that's all they're supposed to do, they would be better off disbanding. The teams would be worse off.




Quote:
Not quite: there are apparently a few other issues to be sorted out, primarily concerning contract rights. However, that shouldn't take long to sort out once the skeleton of the deal is decided upon.
Right, so let's stop talking about greed and share of HRR because it's not that simple. There are far bigger implications, for teams and players, depending on the results of those contracting rights.

As has been stated numerous times, the NHL shouldn't care how the players divide up the money, but they do.

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11-16-2012, 01:09 PM
  #48
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Do you think if the PA accepted the 50/50, this would be over?
What 50/50 right away, no make wholes or "honoring" contracts?

Yes, I think they'd have a deal by now if they players were willing to do that. I think the owners would have backed off on the contracting issues if the PA took an immediate drop to 50/50.

If it was 50/50 and the whole amounts of current contracts guaranteed in some manner, I think the PA would still need to give on some of the contractual issues to make a deal.

If they were to agree on the 50/50 and how to get there, I think they could work out the contractual stuff.

I have no real way of knowing, just what I think would have happened.

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11-16-2012, 01:11 PM
  #49
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What I don't get is that Lindros is claiming that the biggest thing players want is having their existing contracts honoured. Hasn't this already been offered by the NHL?

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11-16-2012, 01:17 PM
  #50
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Really? Workers don't have a right to be paid for their services? Guess they should just be slaves.
I want to be a slave for a million a year. Sign me up. I never thought being a slave could sound so good.

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