HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk > Polls - (hockey-related only)
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2

Jack Johnson Vs. Dion Phaneuf

View Poll Results: Whom would you rather have on your team going forward?
Jack Johnson 54 31.03%
Dion Phaneuf 120 68.97%
Voters: 174. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-16-2012, 11:07 AM
  #51
King'sPawn
Enjoy the chaos
 
King'sPawn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 8,582
vCash: 500
Johnson's defensive game struggles most with zone coverage. One-on-One, he's very strong and is hard to get around. Since the Kings played a stifling defensive system under Murray, he simply wasn't going to succeed. Sutter, although it is more proactive, still emphasizes strong defensive play. Too much emphasis on defense. A more up-tempo and transitional style is a better environment for him.

The guy is a competitor and a true professional, and he just wants to play. He negotiated his own contract and cut through the bull that agents tried to pull.

As far as Phaneuf, I don't watch enough Maple Leaf games to form an opinion and can't comfortably compare. I just wanted to shed some analysis on Johnson.

King'sPawn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2012, 12:42 PM
  #52
Ludicrous Speed
Registered User
 
Ludicrous Speed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Killumbus
Country: Micronesia
Posts: 11,154
vCash: 500
These two posts really make me scratch my head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri the Fury View Post
Phaneuf hands down. Only a general manager like Howson could've traded something more valuable than a 2nd round pick for Jack Johnson. One dimensional player with a terrible contract.
We traded a malcontent who had no desire to be here for Johnson, who has brought a great amount of leadership that no one expected AND a first rounder. As a Columbus fan, I feel grateful; I thought we weren't going to get anything once word spread that Carter wanted a trade. I can see the one-dimensional comment, I've thought that for a while up until recently (and I recognize he still needs to disprove this because of the small sample size), but he's on a sweet contract in my books.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
J. Johnson should be lucky to be considered a 2nd pairing guy.
I honestly wasn't a fan of JJ before we traded for him. Always thought he was a bonehead. But lucky to be on a second pairing? Holy crap.. even when I didn't think too fondly of JJ I didn't think of him that way.

Upon arriving, Jack has jumped at being "the guy". He wants to be the one making the play, whether it's scoring a timely goal, blocking a shot, or battling in front of his own net. He was laying it all down on the line for us. Maybe it's just the fact that we have never had leadership and talent in such a combination on defense, but it was a very welcome addition. He may be lacking in defensive know-how, but his amount of desire to do what is best for the team is through the roof.

Again, I understand he needs to prove more due to the amount of time he's been here, but I don't think there has ever been a guy as excited to be here in our history as much as Johnson. That means a lot to us. In that sense, I'd rather have Johnson on MY team than Phaneuf, simply because of the fit he and the club have. Phaneuf gets the edge as being the better player, but to quote Herb Brooks: We're not looking for the best players, we're looking for the right ones.

Ludicrous Speed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2012, 01:08 PM
  #53
OzzyFan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Country: United States
Posts: 2,760
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludicrous Speed View Post
These two posts really make me scratch my head.



We traded a malcontent who had no desire to be here for Johnson, who has brought a great amount of leadership that no one expected AND a first rounder. As a Columbus fan, I feel grateful; I thought we weren't going to get anything once word spread that Carter wanted a trade. I can see the one-dimensional comment, I've thought that for a while up until recently (and I recognize he still needs to disprove this because of the small sample size), but he's on a sweet contract in my books.



I honestly wasn't a fan of JJ before we traded for him. Always thought he was a bonehead. But lucky to be on a second pairing? Holy crap.. even when I didn't think too fondly of JJ I didn't think of him that way.

Upon arriving, Jack has jumped at being "the guy". He wants to be the one making the play, whether it's scoring a timely goal, blocking a shot, or battling in front of his own net. He was laying it all down on the line for us. Maybe it's just the fact that we have never had leadership and talent in such a combination on defense, but it was a very welcome addition. He may be lacking in defensive know-how, but his amount of desire to do what is best for the team is through the roof.

Again, I understand he needs to prove more due to the amount of time he's been here, but I don't think there has ever been a guy as excited to be here in our history as much as Johnson. That means a lot to us. In that sense, I'd rather have Johnson on MY team than Phaneuf, simply because of the fit he and the club have. Phaneuf gets the edge as being the better player, but to quote Herb Brooks: We're not looking for the best players, we're looking for the right ones.
I don't know if you can teach hockey sense, and he obviously has time to improve. But I watched 4gms of Jack Johnson on the Blue Jackets, and he still made 3 or 4 out of position mistakes that cost the Blue Jackets goals. It's not about the drive or the skills, Johnson has the drive and the skills to be a top pairing d-man, but his hockey smarts, decision making, and.....overzealous ability to float of position in his own zone repeatedly throughout his entire career makes me think he'll be nothing more than a d-man that can put up points and be a liability in his own zone, aka poor 2nd pair d-man. I've seen a lot of him, and what he has is possible correctable, but it's something nearly impossible to break given his style of play and decision making.

OzzyFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2012, 01:48 PM
  #54
Ludicrous Speed
Registered User
 
Ludicrous Speed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Killumbus
Country: Micronesia
Posts: 11,154
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyFan View Post
I don't know if you can teach hockey sense, and he obviously has time to improve. But I watched 4gms of Jack Johnson on the Blue Jackets, and he still made 3 or 4 out of position mistakes that cost the Blue Jackets goals. It's not about the drive or the skills, Johnson has the drive and the skills to be a top pairing d-man, but his hockey smarts, decision making, and.....overzealous ability to float of position in his own zone repeatedly throughout his entire career makes me think he'll be nothing more than a d-man that can put up points and be a liability in his own zone, aka poor 2nd pair d-man. I've seen a lot of him, and what he has is possible correctable, but it's something nearly impossible to break given his style of play and decision making.
Hockey IQ is certainly something you need to be a truly great defenseman, and Jack's definitely isn't the best. But he knows his role very well, and I think the added responsibility he has here makes him pull the reigns back a little bit because he's aware of how little margin for error we have as a team.

As I said, I used to think of him as a total meathead who was just one of those guys who got by on his great athleticism and didn't have the head to keep up. While he still may not be able to process the game at that elite level, I believe he wants the best for this team first and foremost, which can make him a more responsible player in my opinion. The future could prove me to be very wrong, but that is the judgement I've gotten, not solely based on his play, but with the way he's brought the locker room together since arriving as well.

I also believe Ryan Murray will be an exceptional compliment to Johnson. Murray's IQ is off the charts, and they're both very mobile defensemen. Not to mention, both are more than competent leaders. Should be a very fun pair to watch in the future.

Ludicrous Speed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2012, 03:42 PM
  #55
AJMHABS
#31 for Vezina
 
AJMHABS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Montreal, Qc
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,637
vCash: 500
Phaneuf, easily.

And I'm a Habs fan.

AJMHABS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2012, 07:24 PM
  #56
The Podium
Formerly chrisx101
 
The Podium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,834
vCash: 500
Im surprised this isnt like the Campbell thread where Phaneuf is "clearly worse defensively"

The Podium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-17-2012, 11:49 AM
  #57
eklunds source
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Ed Snider's basement
Posts: 8,295
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludicrous Speed View Post
We traded a malcontent who had no desire to be here for Johnson, who has brought a great amount of leadership that no one expected AND a first rounder.
Howson traded a malcontent for Marc-Andre Bergeron and a 30% chance at an NHL player. Whether that's a fair trade or not, I don't know.. But as a team, Columbus was significantly better with a malcontent Carter than a thrilled Johnson.

Quote:
As a Columbus fan, I feel grateful; I thought we weren't going to get anything once word spread that Carter wanted a trade. I can see the one-dimensional comment, I've thought that for a while up until recently (and I recognize he still needs to disprove this because of the small sample size), but he's on a sweet contract in my books.
The contract is sweet for Johnson... To the team is awful. You don't win games with cap space but the Blue Jackets might if it were JJ's contract being terminated..


Quote:
Upon arriving, Jack has jumped at being "the guy". He wants to be the one making the play, whether it's scoring a timely goal, blocking a shot, or battling in front of his own net. He was laying it all down on the line for us.
You know who else wants to be "the guy" and lays it all out there every shift? Every 13th forward, 7th defenseman, ever. Desire and physical talent was never hard for Johnson - what's hard is actually being an NHL calibre player on both sides of the puck. Desire doesn't prevent scoring chances against. A fish out of water lays it all on the line too, which is exactly what he is in the defensive zone. He's generally in the vicinity of the right spot most of the time but doesn't do the things that need to be done to separate players from the puck.

Quote:
Maybe it's just the fact that we have never had leadership and talent in such a combination on defense, but it was a very welcome addition. He may be lacking in defensive know-how, but his amount of desire to do what is best for the team is through the roof.
How many hockey games has desire won? How many goals against has leadership prevented? I'm not saying they aren't important but I could build you a very talented hockey team with desire and grit and leadership and effort and more desire and they'd never sniff the playoffs.

If Toews didn't provide any leadership, he'd still be an elite forward that produces and helps win games. In the last 5 minutes of a tied hockey game, you don't put your best leaders on the ice, you put your best players out there. In the last 5 minutes of a game you're winning by a goal, you don't put players out who measured the most desire. You play your best shutdown guys. Want to guess who an NHL coach puts out there when they're down by a goal?

Quote:
Again, I understand he needs to prove more due to the amount of time he's been here, but I don't think there has ever been a guy as excited to be here in our history as much as Johnson. That means a lot to us. In that sense, I'd rather have Johnson on MY team than Phaneuf, simply because of the fit he and the club have. Phaneuf gets the edge as being the better player, but to quote Herb Brooks: We're not looking for the best players, we're looking for the right ones.
I don't mean to throw him completely under the bus - obviously I feel pretty strongly that he's a debit to a club and not an asset, but that doesn't mean he's a bad person. I'm glad fans feel he's a fit there, and I hope he gets his poop in a group and develops into his natural abilities more. Until then? He might score some goals and put out a lot of effort but he's actively hurting your team.

Johnson, 5v5, 2009-2012, With/Without You
Over the last 3 years, Johnson has played over 48 hours of 5v5 hockey in front of Jonathan Quick. When they're on the ice together, the Kings took 48.5% of all shot attempts that occurred*. With a different goalie between the pipes and Johnson on the ice, that didn't change (48.4%).

When Johnson was not on the ice (and this excludes games he wasn't dressed for - this means when the Kings were playing at 5v5 and Johnson was sitting on the bench), the Kings took 53.9% of shot attempts. They improved over 5% as a team. A 5.4% difference is the same as the difference between San Jose (7th in NHL, 52.2%) and Montreal (46.8%, 27th in NHL).

All the empirical evidence gathered on Johnson, ever, shows he bleeds shots against, scoring chances against, and goals against at a rate far greater than he creates shots/scoring chances/goals for. This poll could be Jack Johnson vs. $7m in dead cap space and the correct answer might very well be the cap space.

eklunds source is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-17-2012, 06:33 PM
  #58
Volcanologist
Used Register
 
Volcanologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Cosmodrome
Country: Germany
Posts: 20,919
vCash: 500
Is this poll real life?

Phaneuf easily.

Volcanologist is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-17-2012, 06:54 PM
  #59
BudMovin*
Guest
 
Country:
Posts: n/a
vCash:
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisx101 View Post
Im surprised this isnt like the Campbell thread where Phaneuf is "clearly worse defensively"
What are you talking about? I thought the consensus was that he was better defensively, but not by the margin some of you thought.

  Reply With Quote
Old
11-17-2012, 09:39 PM
  #60
Ludicrous Speed
Registered User
 
Ludicrous Speed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Killumbus
Country: Micronesia
Posts: 11,154
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eklunds source View Post
Howson traded a malcontent for Marc-Andre Bergeron and a 30% chance at an NHL player. Whether that's a fair trade or not, I don't know.. But as a team, Columbus was significantly better with a malcontent Carter than a thrilled Johnson.
This is simply where we disagree. Carter brought a stink to the locker room, and it was cancerous; Johnson has done the exact opposite.

I read your whole post, don't worry. You make valid points. But JJ was our best player during the time that he played, hands down, and it'd be a stupid exercise to try to convince me otherwise. He may or may not keep that up, no one knows. My whole point is that if he does play the way he did for us on a consistent basis, people will be whistling a different tune about him. I tried to be very critical of him when he arrived, but it was hard to. It's easy to be a Jackets fan and pick apart the team, because almost every single player we have ever had has been playing over their heads – it's relatively easy to spot when you've seen the same script over and over again. I'm not stupid, and I honestly try to evaluate on an objective basis.

I don't really have much to add to that.

Ludicrous Speed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-17-2012, 09:56 PM
  #61
Hanifin
Our target
 
Hanifin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Waterloo, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,481
vCash: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stansfield View Post
Phaneuf is better offensively, defensively and is more physical. There is no argument for Johnson, he's just a poor man's Phaneuf.
Came here to say this.

Hanifin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-17-2012, 11:00 PM
  #62
WarriorOfGandhi
Was saying Boo-urns
 
WarriorOfGandhi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Country: Scotland
Posts: 14,737
vCash: 500
ugh. neither.

WarriorOfGandhi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2012, 12:25 AM
  #63
The Podium
Formerly chrisx101
 
The Podium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,834
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BudMovin View Post
What are you talking about? I thought the consensus was that he was better defensively, but not by the margin some of you thought.
dont know which thread you were reading

The Podium is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:42 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.