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2012-2013 Prospect Talk PART IV

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Old
11-16-2012, 01:56 PM
  #751
StumpNYI
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
who do you feel was BPA available at #4?
I can't speak for everyone but at the time of the draft based on all the knowledge we had, Reinhart was not the clear BPA at #4 for most Islander fans posting on this board. Also, many scouting reports had him a few spots back as well even though he inched up the rankings as the draft approached iirc.

I personally liked Galchenyuk, Forsberg, or Dumba in that order because I really wanted a high-end game breaking type player. If it wasn't for the injury to Rielly he could have been ahead of Murray even. Forsberg was the top rated European and could have gone easily in the top 4. I still feel teams will regret passing on him.

Reinhart's draft profile was describing him pretty much as he is now but with offensive upside (which I have not seen personally). That was not enough to convince me he deserved top 5 when players like our own Hamonic possessed similar qualities and were discovered in later rounds. Again, that was at the time of the draft based on the limited knowledge I had and had never seen him play.

Reinhart filled a huge need and I don't think there was a better player in the draft at that moment that could potentially fill it. So I am happy about the pick now. But the Reinhart hype started with the Edmonton rumors of picking him 1st overall and continued as he was drafted 4th but still no convincing evidence to justify the pick to me other then that. He hasn't been given enough time to live up to being drafted that early, just at the time I did not think he was BPA. Now I can actually watch him play and I am more confident in the pick the more I watch him.

I understand it will be years before we really know if it was worth it. Just my opinion when I heard his name called at the podium.

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11-16-2012, 01:57 PM
  #752
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Originally Posted by OlTimeHockey View Post
LOVE Reinhart's game, and look forward to seeing him play, but we're ALL gonna be looking at Grigorenko and wondering why in a few years IMHO.
OR, edit-replace "Filatov" with "Grigorenko" and "2010" with "2013"

"I did NOT want Filatov (I always saw a Chistov/Samsonov far more than Pavel Bure) in his draft year. I was expecting Schenn at #5 and would have been happy with that choice but I did like the trading down strategy at the time, and still do." - redbull, Jan 2010, HF.



Granted, Grigorenko looks really good, at times, against junior age players. But he still tends to disappear for stretches.

I'm happy with Reinhart.

I'll be happier if we land MacKinnon next year though, assuming there's a lottery (that the Isles win) and a draft and a season.

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Old
11-16-2012, 02:27 PM
  #753
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Originally Posted by scott99 View Post
Agree 100%. Steal of the draft, and very dumb move by teams scouts listening to something that went viral. One guy says Grigorenko is lazy, before even knowing he was sick, and then the thing just balloons to where every scout repeats it. Buffalo was licking their chops when Grigorenko was still there. Grigorenko looks great again this year.

Kinda reminds me of the negative press Tavares went through prior to his draft, it was so bad that scouts were saying Duchene and Hedman were better players.
THIS.

And I had Forsberg very high (possibly higher than Grigo, as his all around game and offense was very laudable), but I will say for a defenseman, Reinhart impresses me more than even Murray. I think we got the top guy on defense in the draft, and coming from ME, a very negative person on these boards, this should count for something. I'm hoping Reinhart starts hitting more moreso than taking chances on offense. I see KJ with size with his SMART defense. The offense will be there, but more importantly, the goals against will not with this kid. (which is important when Rick makes his 12th comeback tour)

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11-16-2012, 02:36 PM
  #754
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Originally Posted by StumpNYI View Post
I can't speak for everyone but at the time of the draft based on all the knowledge we had, Reinhart was not the clear BPA at #4 for most Islander fans posting on this board. Also, many scouting reports had him a few spots back as well even though he inched up the rankings as the draft approached iirc.

I personally liked Galchenyuk, Forsberg, or Dumba in that order because I really wanted a high-end game breaking type player. If it wasn't for the injury to Rielly he could have been ahead of Murray even. Forsberg was the top rated European and could have gone easily in the top 4. I still feel teams will regret passing on him.

Reinhart's draft profile was describing him pretty much as he is now but with offensive upside (which I have not seen personally). That was not enough to convince me he deserved top 5 when players like our own Hamonic possessed similar qualities and were discovered in later rounds. Again, that was at the time of the draft based on the limited knowledge I had and had never seen him play.

Reinhart filled a huge need and I don't think there was a better player in the draft at that moment that could potentially fill it. So I am happy about the pick now. But the Reinhart hype started with the Edmonton rumors of picking him 1st overall and continued as he was drafted 4th but still no convincing evidence to justify the pick to me other then that. He hasn't been given enough time to live up to being drafted that early, just at the time I did not think he was BPA. Now I can actually watch him play and I am more confident in the pick the more I watch him.

I understand it will be years before we really know if it was worth it. Just my opinion when I heard his name called at the podium.
Stump, I couldn't have said it better myself. Some guys are late climbers though, I believe the last rating by Mac before the draft had Reinhart rated #4, Hockeyprospects.com's draft guide had Reinhart rated #4 as well. Even though their guide seems all over the place, I respect them for sticking to their guns, they had Galchenyuck #1 and Yakuopov #2. The year before, they had Scott Mayfield #14 and Doug Hamilton #21. So some people may think their guides are a bit weird. BUT, one thing you have to remember is, all the guides out there (my Uncle swears by ISS), are just exactly that, guides, it doesn't mean scouts from all of the teams have these players rated exactly like ISS, or The Hockey News, or CSS, etc.

My uncle and I sit there and say things like, wow, Winnipeg really reached for Schiefele, he's #24 in the Hockey News, they grabbed him at #7. Or, wow Carolina really reached w/Jeff Skinner, most guides had him rated in the mid 20's.

So at the end of the day, did the Isles really pick the BPA ? Not according to draft guides, but most likely according to a lot of scouts and the Isles Draft board, they did.

Personally I was hoping for Grigorenko or Forsberg (In that order), I think they will both wind up being home runs for their teams.

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11-16-2012, 02:38 PM
  #755
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
OR, edit-replace "Filatov" with "Grigorenko" and "2010" with "2013"

"I did NOT want Filatov (I always saw a Chistov/Samsonov far more than Pavel Bure) in his draft year. I was expecting Schenn at #5 and would have been happy with that choice but I did like the trading down strategy at the time, and still do." - redbull, Jan 2010, HF.



Granted, Grigorenko looks really good, at times, against junior age players. But he still tends to disappear for stretches.

I'm happy with Reinhart.

I'll be happier if we land MacKinnon next year though, assuming there's a lottery (that the Isles win) and a draft and a season.
Other than the fact they are both Russian, there is nothing similar between Grigorenko and Filatov. Filatov was a smallish winger who had not played in NA before being drafted. Grigorenko is a big center who lit up the Q in his draft year.

And for the record, Samsonov had a pretty decent career. Much better than the Canadian forwards drafted before and after him, Daniel Tkaczuk and Jason Ward.

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11-16-2012, 02:55 PM
  #756
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Originally Posted by OlTimeHockey View Post
THIS.

And I had Forsberg very high (possibly higher than Grigo, as his all around game and offense was very laudable), but I will say for a defenseman, Reinhart impresses me more than even Murray. I think we got the top guy on defense in the draft, and coming from ME, a very negative person on these boards, this should count for something. I'm hoping Reinhart starts hitting more moreso than taking chances on offense. I see KJ with size with his SMART defense. The offense will be there, but more importantly, the goals against will not with this kid. (which is important when Rick makes his 12th comeback tour)
Color me impressed.

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11-16-2012, 02:59 PM
  #757
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
Color me impressed.
caveat: UNLESS WE PROMOTE HIM TOO SOON.

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11-16-2012, 03:06 PM
  #758
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Originally Posted by OlTimeHockey View Post
caveat: UNLESS WE PROMOTE HIM TOO SOON.
I don't think they will barring 3 things:

1. A big WJC
2. Increased offensive production to finish the season
3. An extremely impressive 2013 TC

The offense will probably hold him back, but I suppose he could start getting involved more as the season starts coming to an end. I'll definitely be watching him closely. Strome as well.

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11-16-2012, 03:32 PM
  #759
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
I don't think they will barring 3 things:

1. A big WJC
2. Increased offensive production to finish the season
3. An extremely impressive 2013 TC

The offense will probably hold him back, but I suppose he could start getting involved more as the season starts coming to an end. I'll definitely be watching him closely. Strome as well.
And everyone better thank the players and owners.....last lockout we didn't have many KEY prospects to be left alone to develop (those kids did GREAT with a year of no NHL!).

We have some very key guys this time with Nino, Strome, Reinhart, Mayfield, DeHaaajustbrokesomething and so on.

I think we're gonna really, really benefit from zero meddling this go'round.

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11-16-2012, 04:38 PM
  #760
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Originally Posted by kasper11 View Post
Other than the fact they are both Russian, there is nothing similar between Grigorenko and Filatov. Filatov was a smallish winger who had not played in NA before being drafted. Grigorenko is a big center who lit up the Q in his draft year.

And for the record, Samsonov had a pretty decent career. Much better than the Canadian forwards drafted before and after him, Daniel Tkaczuk and Jason Ward.
similarities being questionable work ethic, compete level, adaptability to nhl game.

those were brought up about grigs.

fans fall in love with a player's max upside at the draft, but often ignore important things like commitment and work ethic.

we can all agree that even tavares wouldn't have gotten by on talent alone. like we see with filatov, kadri, and many others. Grigorenko scares me.


Last edited by redbull: 11-16-2012 at 09:24 PM.
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11-16-2012, 08:16 PM
  #761
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My recollection of draft day last year was that the word we were hearing from McKenzie and others was that Reinhart could go as high as #2 and was not expected to last past #4 or 5. I discount most of what we hear until the last couple of days before the draft which is when we get the good info, and at that time Reinhart was expected to go very high.

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11-16-2012, 08:47 PM
  #762
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My recollection of draft day last year was that the word we were hearing from McKenzie and others was that Reinhart could go as high as #2 and was not expected to last past #4 or 5. I discount most of what we hear until the last couple of days before the draft which is when we get the good info, and at that time Reinhart was expected to go very high.
I remember the same. There was some talk from McKenzie that the Oilers were considering taking Reinhart #1 overall. It made sense considering their need for a big time defense prospect and the fact that Reinhart plays like right there so you have to think they were very familiar with him.

I wanted Forsberg, but Reinhart was ranked #4 and Button called it (I'm not a fan of his, but he did call Strome the year before). Considering all factors, Reinhart was a very good pick AND he was pretty much the BPA at #4 according to McKenzie and Button. I know that the Draft is all about hyperbole, I did hear from one of those guys that big Griff could be the best player in the draft class when it's all said and done. I hope they are right and these guys are not Internet armchair GM's like all of us.

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11-16-2012, 08:59 PM
  #763
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Friday

Cape Breton 5, Saint John 2-Leduc, -2.
Kitchener 3, Erie 1-Pelech, + 1.
Guelph 7, Mississauga 2-Pedan, + 2.
Notre Dame 4, Michigan 1-Russo, 2 goals (3,4), + 2, Lee, + 1.
Denver 6, Colorado College 5-Scott Mayfield, 1 goal (1), + 4.


Last edited by Degeneration Rex: 11-16-2012 at 11:11 PM.
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11-17-2012, 05:38 AM
  #764
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Originally Posted by Degeneration Rex View Post
Friday

Cape Breton 5, Saint John 2-Leduc, -2.
Kitchener 3, Erie 1-Pelech, + 1.
Guelph 7, Mississauga 2-Pedan, + 2.
Notre Dame 4, Michigan 1-Russo, 2 goals (3,4), + 2, Lee, + 1.
Denver 6, Colorado College 5-Scott Mayfield, 1 goal (1), + 4.
I liked this pick.

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11-17-2012, 05:58 AM
  #765
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I remember the same. There was some talk from McKenzie that the Oilers were considering taking Reinhart #1 overall. It made sense considering their need for a big time defense prospect and the fact that Reinhart plays like right there so you have to think they were very familiar with him.

I wanted Forsberg, but Reinhart was ranked #4 and Button called it (I'm not a fan of his, but he did call Strome the year before). Considering all factors, Reinhart was a very good pick AND he was pretty much the BPA at #4 according to McKenzie and Button. I know that the Draft is all about hyperbole, I did hear from one of those guys that big Griff could be the best player in the draft class when it's all said and done. I hope they are right and these guys are not Internet armchair GM's like all of us.
Thank you. You saved me from having to go back and search, for the final predraft rankings and comments.

I also remember reading that Edmonton wanted Reinhart and was considering trading down a few spots.

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11-17-2012, 06:33 AM
  #766
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I liked this pick.
Me too, i just love the picks of Pedan and specially Russo, more than Mayfield. I'm very high on russo.

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11-17-2012, 07:19 AM
  #767
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Me too, i just love the picks of Pedan and specially Russo, more than Mayfield. I'm very high on russo.


Then you must really love those two guys then, cause Mayfield is highly regarded.

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11-17-2012, 07:26 AM
  #768
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Me too, i just love the picks of Pedan and specially Russo, more than Mayfield. I'm very high on russo.
What's wrong with Mayfield? If you like stat lines I understand Mayfield may not be the defenceman for you, BUT he will be a top 4 defenceman in the NHL. He is a 6'4 200+ as a 20 year old sophomore. His +11 rating (in 9 games) is 1st among all Division 1 NCAA Defenceman, and tied for 3rd overall in all of NCAA.

The kid is legit. Of the three you listed Mayfield is the one I would pencil in for top 4 with certainty. Pedan can be as good as he wants and has HUGE upside, but he has a lot of work to do. RUsso is a nice pick and I have watched almost all of Notre Dames games this season, he can play. I just don't see him logging 20+ minutes a night in the NHL (for a GOOD Team), maybe a really heady 3rd pairing defenceman you can throw out on special teams 2nd units.... Think Andrew MacDonald 2.0. Yeah, I know A-Mac logs crazy minutes, but he's not on a good team, with strong depth at defense YET.

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11-17-2012, 07:34 AM
  #769
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Mayfield has been a rock on Denver's defense. In last night's game Denver had a 6-2 lead in the third
and when Mayfield was not on the ice, Colorado College attacked hard and cut the lead to 6-4.Mayfield was in the ice for much of the last 5 minutes. The time he wasn't CC scored to make it 6-5. Denver held on to the win because of Mayfield. He won't put up big point totals but he's a much better player this year.

On another note, Sportsnet color commentator Sam Constantino was a guest yesterday on " Oilers Now", a show heard from 2-4 PM eastern time on CHED weekdays. Gave a high compliment to Reinhart, calling him "mistake free."

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11-17-2012, 09:25 AM
  #770
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I remember the same. There was some talk from McKenzie that the Oilers were considering taking Reinhart #1 overall. It made sense considering their need for a big time defense prospect and the fact that Reinhart plays like right there so you have to think they were very familiar with him.

I wanted Forsberg, but Reinhart was ranked #4 and Button called it (I'm not a fan of his, but he did call Strome the year before). Considering all factors, Reinhart was a very good pick AND he was pretty much the BPA at #4 according to McKenzie and Button. I know that the Draft is all about hyperbole, I did hear from one of those guys that big Griff could be the best player in the draft class when it's all said and done. I hope they are right and these guys are not Internet armchair GM's like all of us.
How close to the draft did these final rankings come out?

These same guys spend months hyping other prospects getting us all crazy and making us develop man crushes on certain 18 year old boys then at the last minute insert a 'new guy'. I'm curious how far back Reinhart was prior to them finally ranking him #4 and the time difference. Not that important, but Reinhart gained a lot of moment in the final weeks. The Islanders had their sights set on Reinhart and Mckenzie and Button are very informed. Wouldn't be surprised by that influencing their final rankings/draft predictions.

I don't remember there being this much love for Reinhart around here on June 22nd. Strange.

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11-17-2012, 09:37 AM
  #771
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Originally Posted by StumpNYI View Post
How close to the draft did these final rankings come out?

These same guys spend months hyping other prospects getting us all crazy and making us develop man crushes on certain 18 year old boys then at the last minute insert a 'new guy'. I'm curious how far back Reinhart was prior to them finally ranking him #4 and the time difference. Not that important, but Reinhart gained a lot of moment in the final weeks. The Islanders had their sights set on Reinhart and Mckenzie and Button are very informed. Wouldn't be surprised by that influencing their final rankings/draft predictions.

I don't remember there being this much love for Reinhart around here on June 22nd. Strange.
Either that or the Isles brass loved Griff all along, and the influence of their scouts along with the scouts of many other teams influenced Mac's rankings.

Nah, couldn't be.


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11-17-2012, 09:49 AM
  #772
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Originally Posted by StumpNYI View Post
How close to the draft did these final rankings come out?

These same guys spend months hyping other prospects getting us all crazy and making us develop man crushes on certain 18 year old boys then at the last minute insert a 'new guy'. I'm curious how far back Reinhart was prior to them finally ranking him #4 and the time difference. Not that important, but Reinhart gained a lot of moment in the final weeks. The Islanders had their sights set on Reinhart and Mckenzie and Button are very informed. Wouldn't be surprised by that influencing their final rankings/draft predictions.

I don't remember there being this much love for Reinhart around here on June 22nd. Strange.
Button's early season rankings had Reinhart at #7.
Button's final 2012 rankings, had Reinhart #6.

I don't see much of a rise there.

Reinhart's final rankings.
http://www.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=9825
NHL Central Scouting: 10 NAS, International Scouting Services: No. 6, The Hockey News: No. 8, Button's Ranking: No. 6

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11-17-2012, 10:01 AM
  #773
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Button's early season rankings had Reinhart at #7.
Button's final 2012 rankings, had Reinhart #6.

I don't see much of a rise there.

Reinhart's final rankings.
http://www.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=9825
NHL Central Scouting: 10 NAS, International Scouting Services: No. 6, The Hockey News: No. 8, Button's Ranking: No. 6
Maybe not # picked but he seemed to be on a different tier then Yak, Galchenyuk, Murray, Dumba, Forsberg, and Grigo for a while. Even Buttons first sentence on his ranking shows that "Griffin may be a diamond in the rough but he possesses the carats of a unique player."

Thanks for the info but still not convinced everyone around here was sure he was BPA at #4 on draft day and a majority didn't have their hearts set on a different prospect.

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11-17-2012, 10:32 AM
  #774
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Either that or the Isles brass loved Griff all along, and the influence of their scouts along with the scouts of many other teams influenced Mac's rankings.

Nah, couldn't be.

or, they coveted murray, offered all their picks for him, settled for their second choice.

truth is, we have absolutely no idea whatsoever. speculating of pointless.

from what I see, murray is better than griff at everything, right now. though defensively, it's a toss up.

rielly is the best offensively.

reinhart has the most upside or potential, if he can get there.

it was a smart pick.

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11-17-2012, 11:28 AM
  #775
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Originally Posted by StumpNYI View Post
Maybe not # picked but he seemed to be on a different tier then Yak, Galchenyuk, Murray, Dumba, Forsberg, and Grigo for a while. Even Buttons first sentence on his ranking shows that "Griffin may be a diamond in the rough but he possesses the carats of a unique player."

Thanks for the info but still not convinced everyone around here was sure he was BPA at #4 on draft day and a majority didn't have their hearts set on a different prospect.

McKenzie bases his rankings, on his poll of nhl scouts. He had Reinhart going 4th overall in his final rankings.

And no offense, but do we really care who our armchair gms and scouts want, when most of us have only seen youtube clips and a few predraft tournaments of the players?

In 2008, many of our armchair scouts wanted Filatov.

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