HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Edmonton Oilers
Notices

Lockout thread #2: mediation done - no progress

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-16-2012, 01:15 AM
  #151
Groucho
Tier 1 Fan
 
Groucho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Displaced
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,614
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TowMater14 View Post
What did he say?
He's just pissed off about the lockout like we all are. Standing up for the people who actually are crunched financially and the fans over this 2 week hiatus deal.

Groucho is offline  
Old
11-16-2012, 02:39 AM
  #152
402
#ualberta
 
402's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Edmonton
Country: Egypt
Posts: 2,853
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
The PA's response











Now that they're again arguing through the media, I think we can just about stick a fork in this season.
Yeah this is ridiculous and imo a terrible move by the owners what they needed was to get back to the table

With regards to sticking a fork in it; well its looking real bad right now but i think in 2-3 weeks they could get back to it and hopefully the league, who called for this 2 week recess, come out with some sort of final last effort to save the season proposal I mean there has to be a strong push to avoid a lost season
If not then the nhl will be looking at a second cancelled season due to lockout compared to all other NA leagues which have never lost a season due to lockout

402 is offline  
Old
11-16-2012, 09:25 AM
  #153
I am the Liquor
Registered User
 
I am the Liquor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Sunnyvale
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,234
vCash: 8345
Quote:
Originally Posted by 402 View Post
Yeah this is ridiculous and imo a terrible move by the owners what they needed was to get back to the table

With regards to sticking a fork in it; well its looking real bad right now but i think in 2-3 weeks they could get back to it and hopefully the league, who called for this 2 week recess, come out with some sort of final last effort to save the season proposal I mean there has to be a strong push to avoid a lost season
If not then the nhl will be looking at a second cancelled season due to lockout compared to all other NA leagues which have never lost a season due to lockout
The NHL has been the only side to actually bring forward a reasonable proposal. The players should have signed it already.

Its only going to get worse. The "make whole" part of it is likely out the window now. The players keep bringing the same proposal to the table over and over. Not to mention showing up to meetings six hours late. Why would anyone even bother with that nonsense?

It isnt inconceivable that the lockout could go beyond just this season.

I am the Liquor is offline  
Old
11-16-2012, 10:10 AM
  #154
AlanHUK
Registered User
 
AlanHUK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Nottingham, England
Country: England
Posts: 1,328
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
The PA's response

Now that they're again arguing through the media, I think we can just about stick a fork in this season.
The worst thing about Steve Fehr's response is the creative accounting behind the players losing billions.

Under the NHL's last proposal they might have lost $400M max, over the course of 12 years....

But for that to happen there would have to be no growth at all, anything over 5% growth in the first 2 years would result in all contracts being paid in full.

Now even if they decided to start this season under the old CBA the players have already lost around $500M, and that's if somehow revenues stayed at $3.3B, since they will have shrank, that $500M is likely to jump quite a bit.

if you then go onto contract issues, around 12% of players have contracts which span over 5 years, so the PA is looking after the minority. not all it's members.

Also the PA should probably put a gag order on players because they're making themselves look extremely stupid on twitter and in interviews.

Crosby having this gem in an interview the other day. ' they want to increase the length of entry level contracts'

The last league proposal was for 2 year ELCs with an extra year onto RFA.

AlanHUK is offline  
Old
11-16-2012, 10:52 AM
  #155
Hockey Nightmare
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,081
vCash: 500
I've never thought we'd be playing hockey this season.

Playing hockey would be the logical thing to do, but the players' position is based on emotion more than logic.

Almost everyone else is basically "Just take the deal, you'll still be making loads of money, you won't ever get back what you'll lose, 50/50 is reasonable, 50/50 is consistent with other leagues, the owners can and will wait you out."

This is logic-based.

The players' position is basically "We lost last time, we want to win this time."

Alrighty then.


Last edited by Hockey Nightmare: 11-16-2012 at 10:57 AM.
Hockey Nightmare is offline  
Old
11-16-2012, 11:27 AM
  #156
AlanHUK
Registered User
 
AlanHUK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Nottingham, England
Country: England
Posts: 1,328
vCash: 50
I honestly don't believe the vast majority of players have a clue what offers are on the table.

Crosby saying the league wants to extend ELC is a perfect example to back this up. That proposal was made back in September, the league has since changed it's proposal to lower the length of ELC and he didn't seem to know this.

The 'make partial' comments of some players on twitter also echo this to an extent.

AlanHUK is offline  
Old
11-16-2012, 11:39 AM
  #157
tempest2i
Myxomatosis
 
tempest2i's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Cowtown
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,137
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
So fold up 10 teams and lose 230 NHLPA jobs then. I'm sure the union would be all for that. Owners are entitled to make a profit, the players entire contracts are profits sans taxes no matter if their owner makes $100 million or loses $100 million.
Yes. Less teams means less players in the union, that would lead to more talent on each team and a better product on the ice.

Fringe players who lose their jobs in the NHL will go overseas to play or just lament their bad luck/lack of talent from the comfort of their local car dealership.

tempest2i is offline  
Old
11-16-2012, 11:43 AM
  #158
BlueChip01
Registered User
 
BlueChip01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,935
vCash: 500
So basically the NHL heard that Fehr was telling the players on a conference call that Dec 1 was the NHL date they need a season starting. Bettman then shows them that they can go without talking another two weeks. Fehr was trying to wait it out as is always his strategy.

BlueChip01 is offline  
Old
11-16-2012, 11:43 AM
  #159
Reimer
Tambo Troll Face
 
Reimer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,322
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SK13 View Post
It's a lot more than 5-6 teams "bleeding money". Some may not be bleeding to death, but an owners win here means profit vs loss.
By bleeding I'm talking losing money hand over fist and likely no chance to turn it around. But yes I realize that more than 5-6 teams lose money every season.

Reimer is offline  
Old
11-16-2012, 11:53 AM
  #160
Reimer
Tambo Troll Face
 
Reimer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,322
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
Always amusing to listen to the PA bluster about concessions when it's been the NHL negotiating against it's own offers in an attempt to get something done right from the start of the lockout.

Maybe there is something to those rumors about Fehr's massive ego and his desire to tear down the salary cap. Guess we'll find out sooner than later.
I think we should all be realizing that Fehr is a lot worse that Goodenaw ever was.

As for breaking down a cap that's tied to revenues that's the dumbest thing he could ever try to do. The cap being tied to revenues has only made 80% of his members richer. Then again the fight really only is for the top 20% who in reality without a cap would likely be making more so who knows.

He's clearly not on a mission to appease every member of the PA and thus he should be open to the idea of contraction but that would be PR suicide and the death of his job as the head of the PA if he ever agreed to that.

Reimer is offline  
Old
11-16-2012, 11:58 AM
  #161
Reimer
Tambo Troll Face
 
Reimer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,322
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Great Ones View Post
I've never thought we'd be playing hockey this season.

Playing hockey would be the logical thing to do, but the players' position is based on emotion more than logic.

Almost everyone else is basically "Just take the deal, you'll still be making loads of money, you won't ever get back what you'll lose, 50/50 is reasonable, 50/50 is consistent with other leagues, the owners can and will wait you out."

This is logic-based.

The players' position is basically "We lost last time, we want to win this time."
Alrighty then.
The players side really needs to get over this. Because the only people who lost from the last lockout were the current veterans and the 100 or so players who played in the 2003-2004 and then didn't play at all in the 2005-2006 season. Those were the only people to lose. Every other member gained from the salary cap.

Again that is exactly what's going to happen this time the vets will lose and the bottom feeders will lose. I mean to an extent Crosby is going to lose 9 mil that he could have had. so I suppose that's a lose anyway you slice it but obviously he'll make more in the future to make up for that.

Reimer is offline  
Old
11-16-2012, 12:00 PM
  #162
Reimer
Tambo Troll Face
 
Reimer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,322
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueChip01 View Post
So basically the NHL heard that Fehr was telling the players on a conference call that Dec 1 was the NHL date they need a season starting. Bettman then shows them that they can go without talking another two weeks. Fehr was trying to wait it out as is always his strategy.
Where did you hear this from?

I mean it sounds par for the course for Fehr.

Reimer is offline  
Old
11-16-2012, 12:05 PM
  #163
BlueChip01
Registered User
 
BlueChip01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,935
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reimer View Post
Where did you hear this from?

I mean it sounds par for the course for Fehr.
On TEAM 1040 this morning. Fehr told the PA "lets wait this out the NHL has to start be December 1st".

That is when Bettman told Fehr lets take a 2 week vacay lol. Fehr thought for sure they would have to start Dec 1. That is Fehrs mo. He will wait until the bitter end.

BlueChip01 is offline  
Old
11-16-2012, 12:08 PM
  #164
Reimer
Tambo Troll Face
 
Reimer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,322
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueChip01 View Post
On TEAM 1040 this morning. Fehr told the PA "lets wait this out the NHL has to start be December 1st".

That is when Bettman told Fehr lets take a 2 week vacay lol. Fehr thought for sure they would have to start Dec 1. That is Fehrs mo. He will wait until the bitter end.
Does the idiot realize that the NHL has all the leverage and that the offers will keep getting worse for his PA?

Reimer is offline  
Old
11-16-2012, 12:13 PM
  #165
BlueChip01
Registered User
 
BlueChip01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,935
vCash: 500
I would say with 99% certainty that there is no way GB wants to cancel the season again. I think he cares more than people think he does. Fehr is playing chicken. It's a dangerous game, but he is just waiting until the end for the NHL to throw them something else. Fehr must know they will "lose". He is just trying to save as much as he can for the players.

BlueChip01 is offline  
Old
11-16-2012, 01:46 PM
  #166
Tarus
Fire Mact
 
Tarus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,381
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reimer View Post
I think we should all be realizing that Fehr is a lot worse that Goodenaw ever was.

As for breaking down a cap that's tied to revenues that's the dumbest thing he could ever try to do. The cap being tied to revenues has only made 80% of his members richer. Then again the fight really only is for the top 20% who in reality without a cap would likely be making more so who knows.

He's clearly not on a mission to appease every member of the PA and thus he should be open to the idea of contraction but that would be PR suicide and the death of his job as the head of the PA if he ever agreed to that.
He's not really.

Goodenow never caved, and was even telling the PA at the time they might have to go 2 years to get the owners to break before he was undercut by his own membership. Fehr hasn't even gotten to the point a whole season is lost yet.

I'm not really big on demonizing Fehr though. The NHLPA fired a guy who was working too cordially with the NHL specificly to hire someone who would present a hostile negotiation front, and Fehr and all his anti-cap ideologies are as advertised. The reality is the NHL lockout will drag on as long as the players can cling to their emotionally fabricated persecution complex that the owners are out to screw them. If he goes down the road of trying to remove the cap, it will be because the controlling power of the PA(the rich 20%) lets him.

Tarus is offline  
Old
11-16-2012, 02:22 PM
  #167
Reimer
Tambo Troll Face
 
Reimer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,322
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
He's not really.

Goodenow never caved, and was even telling the PA at the time they might have to go 2 years to get the owners to break before he was undercut by his own membership. Fehr hasn't even gotten to the point a whole season is lost yet.

I'm not really big on demonizing Fehr though. The NHLPA fired a guy who was working too cordially with the NHL specificly to hire someone who would present a hostile negotiation front, and Fehr and all his anti-cap ideologies are as advertised. The reality is the NHL lockout will drag on as long as the players can cling to their emotionally fabricated persecution complex that the owners are out to screw them. If he goes down the road of trying to remove the cap, it will be because the controlling power of the PA(the rich 20%) lets him.
Really that statement stemmed from the fact that his members aren't even informed on what deals and proposals the NHL has on the table. He has just instilled the idea that they are fighting for the greater good of the PA. So if you want to guage that he isn't as bad as Goodenaw because we haven't missed an entire season then fine I'll give you that. But unless Fehr is gonna fold like a cheap beach chair I see this going at least an entire season and then maybe even more.

Reimer is offline  
Old
11-16-2012, 03:04 PM
  #168
CornKicker
Locked Out
 
CornKicker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,341
vCash: 50
my prediction is that fehr gets outsed by the PA before a deal gets done.

CornKicker is offline  
Old
11-16-2012, 03:09 PM
  #169
Bryanbryoil
Moderator
I Know A Thing Or 6
 
Bryanbryoil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: About Winning
Posts: 50,662
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CornKicker View Post
my prediction is that fehr gets outsed by the PA before a deal gets done.
That would be a well deserved shot to his ego. He is the equivalent of a hired gun from the wild west, you take him out and the guys that hired him end up ****ting bricks and sweating bullets.

__________________
Treat Others As You Would Like To Be Treated
Bryanbryoil is offline  
Old
11-16-2012, 03:15 PM
  #170
Master Lok
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 6,631
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CornKicker View Post
my prediction is that fehr gets outsed by the PA before a deal gets done.
In essence, you're saying that Fehr gets ousted by the PA in order for a deal to get done.

Master Lok is offline  
Old
11-16-2012, 03:58 PM
  #171
Booya42
ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) What the...
 
Booya42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,567
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Lok View Post
In essence, you're saying that Fehr gets ousted by the PA in order for a deal to get done.

Nothing would make me happier than to see him tossed out onto his ass, and a deal done within 24 hrs.

The guy is going to cost the players more in the long run, and everyone seems to realize this but the NHLPA.

Booya42 is offline  
Old
11-16-2012, 04:16 PM
  #172
CornKicker
Locked Out
 
CornKicker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,341
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Lok View Post
In essence, you're saying that Fehr gets ousted by the PA in order for a deal to get done.
correct

CornKicker is offline  
Old
11-16-2012, 05:02 PM
  #173
I am the Liquor
Registered User
 
I am the Liquor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Sunnyvale
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,234
vCash: 8345
If Daryl Katz' arena negotiating skills are any indication of the rest of the BOG, then its no wonder there is no hockey.

I am the Liquor is offline  
Old
11-16-2012, 06:15 PM
  #174
Matador
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,352
vCash: 500
I don't understand the players insistence that the owners need to compromise more.

The league has already compromised quite a bit according to Russo.

Quote:
There has been a lot of headway in negotiations that really has not been spelled out to date, but because the owners are looking to reduce the players’ share from 57 to 50 in a new CBA, there seems to be a perception that the players would get nothing in a new CBA.

That’s not entirely true.

Among other things, the owners have proposed to
1) artificially inflate the salary cap in Year 1 so teams don’t have to trade or release players;
2) trade player salary and cap charges in trades (this is something both teams and players have wanted);
3) eliminate re-entry waivers;
4) Increase revenue sharing with further increases as revenues grow, and the top grossing teams making the biggest contributions (revenue sharing is something Don Fehr is passionate about; wants it so the teams that really need assistance are assisted);
5) Introduction of appeal rights to a neutral third-party arbitrator in cases involving on- and- off-ice discipline (player-proposed wish).

Some other things that the players should like:


1) Joint NHL/NHLPA Health and Safety Committee with equal representation by the league and union;
2) Establishment of a “standard of care” and “primary allegiance” obligations between the team medical staff and players (this is directly due to the tragic Derek Boogaard situation that remains ongoing);
3) Offseason rehab activities would no longer be required in the team’s home city;
4) Players have access to second medical opinions at the club expense;
5) Ice time restrictions and days off during training camp;
5) Improved facility standards in visiting locker rooms;
6) Ice condition improvements and standards;
7) More player friendly rules for parent-son trips, teams would have to pay for parents travel and lodging to first-ever games, other milestones;
8) Different standards for rent and mortgage reimbursements from teams;
9) increased access to tickets for visiting players and also a game ticket policy that minimizes the tax impact on players;
10) And also, the league has agreed to consider a player proposal for single rooms for all players on the road, which would be thousands of extra dollars spent on travel. Typically, players share rooms on the road unless you’re a longstanding player (600 games), or in a lot of cases, goaltenders
This on top of the $200+ million in revenue sharing and the partial make whole of contracts.

A lot of the stuff above could have been negotiated in the summer. It shouldn't have taken this long.

Edit: Just to add, the complaining about a two year ELC and then an extra year tacked on to RFA doesn't make a whole bunch of sense to me. If the player isn't happy with the contract he is offered in year three, there is nothing to stop him from signing a 1 year contract until his value increases. You have to take the good with the bad. Some players are going to get more money under this proposal, and others less.


Last edited by Matador: 11-16-2012 at 06:22 PM.
Matador is offline  
Old
11-16-2012, 06:20 PM
  #175
AM
Registered User
 
AM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,890
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 402 View Post
@DarrenDreger: Series of Daly quotes on league initiated hiatus: "We have made repeated moves in the Players' direction with absolutely no reciprocation."

@DarrenDreger: Daly: "unfortunately, we have determined we are involved with Union leadership that has no genuine interest in reaching an agreement."

@DarrenDreger: Daly: "Regardless of what we propose or how we suggest to compromise the answer is "no," At some pt you have to say "enough is enough".

@reporterchris: Had the NHL started Dec. 1, it would most likely have been with a 68-game season. So we're probably looking at less than that now.

Well that sucks so it looks like there s no way a deal is done by dec 1 so if this season is not cancelled and a deal gets done at some point we are looking at ~50game season i think obviously depending on when a deal gets done
This 2 week break thing is stupid, i get the pa' is being hard to deal with and nobody likes them right now but that doesnt mean you take a pointless 2 week break the league and pa' should be continueing to negotiate it sounds like the league just got tired of dealing with the pa' so they decided a break would somehow help the process
Daly says regardless of what we propose the answer is no well the answer is supposed to be no thats where the negotiating and bargaining part comes in
I've been very pissed with the pa' lately but this move by the league really doesnt make them look any better

Bettman called Fehrs bluff.

Eg You dont know how to go ahead? Well, then Ill give you some time and you put your heads together with the players and decide on a strategy.

AM is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:38 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.