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Eric Lindros Speaks Out On NHL Lockout

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Old
11-16-2012, 03:14 PM
  #76
ThePhoenixx
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Joe Sakic signed an offer sheet from the NY Rangers. THAT is what propelled Sakic's earnings. Colorado, just like Detroit and several other teams around that time, would let RFAs sit until and unless they signed lowball offers (lowball in the sense of what their real market value was at that time). A
You are twisting his words.

It doesn't matter why Sakic made his money in Colorado. It only matters that he did make his money in Colorado.

A lot more than Lindros I might add....and he didn't have to live in a big market to get it.

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11-16-2012, 03:18 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Top third were not "fine".

Most of the league is either experiencing actual loss or loss based on opportunity cost. That is not financially stable, especially since costs will only continue to rise.
Exactly where did you get the teams financial results?

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Originally Posted by ThePhoenixx View Post
You are twisting his words.

It doesn't matter why Sakic made his money in Colorado. It only matters that he did make his money in Colorado.

A lot more than Lindros I might add....and he didn't have to live in a big market to get it.

No, I was pointing out what Sakic's true market value, as an RFA, was at that time. A big market team was willing to pay an RFA that type of money because he was one of the best players in the world.

Now, if we go back about ten years, I don't think anyone considered Colorado a small market team, did they? Weber's may be the first case of a small market team actually taking the poison pill.

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11-16-2012, 03:22 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Exactly where did you get the teams financial results?




No, I was pointing out what Sakic's true market value, as an RFA, was at that time. A big market team was willing to pay an RFA that type of money because he was one of the best players in the world.

Now, if we go back about ten years, I don't think anyone considered Colorado a small market team, did they? Weber's may be the first case of a small market team actually taking the poison pill.
Colorado wasn't considered big market either. They are/were a mid-range market.

Toronto, NY, etc. are considered big market.

Ergo, what he said was correct.

Sakic, in a mid-market, made much more than Lindros who was in a large market.

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11-16-2012, 03:24 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by ThePhoenixx View Post
Colorado wasn't considered big market either. They are/were a mid-range market.

Toronto, NY, etc. are considered big market.

Ergo, what he said was correct.

Sakic, in a mid-market, made much more than Lindros who was in a large market.

What do you consider Detroit, big market or mid-market?

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11-16-2012, 03:27 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Eric Lindros. Hilarious. Why would anyone care what that goof thinks about anything?

He is indignant about the owners not living up to their obligations and what's fair?

Is this guy serious?
he may not even know. 8 concussions, i believe. and those are just the ones diagnosed.

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Old
11-16-2012, 03:28 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
What do you consider Detroit, big market or mid-market?
Mid-market with a really big-market owner who will spend, spend, spend....

You guys are very, very lucky to have the owner you do.

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11-16-2012, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Exactly where did you get the teams financial results?
There are several sources that give fairly close approximations to the profits and losses of teams.

You don't seem to understand that just because a team isn't in the red doesn't mean they are financially healthy. A team should be making a rate of return that is at least enough to equal other possible investment opportunities. Also, many of these teams rely on playoff revenue to push them into the positive in the first place, and that is not how any league should run.

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11-16-2012, 03:32 PM
  #83
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Eric Lindros is upset that the NHLPA was asked to go from being ridiculously overpaid, to overpaid, to PERHAPS be fairly compensated.

That's what I got out of the Lindros' statement in the OP.

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11-16-2012, 04:19 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
There are several sources that give fairly close approximations to the profits and losses of teams.

You don't seem to understand that just because a team isn't in the red doesn't mean they are financially healthy. A team should be making a rate of return that is at least enough to equal other possible investment opportunities. Also, many of these teams rely on playoff revenue to push them into the positive in the first place, and that is not how any league should run.

No, there aren't 'several' sources. There's Forbes' guesstimates, McGuire's recent general comment, and a sprinkling here and there. The only teams whose financial records come close to full disclosure was Phoenix during the bankruptcy trial, and Nashville due to the city subsidies given on the arena (team has to disclose financial info). Apparently the Panthers have to divulge certain info to Broward County in Florida.

I understand perfectly what financial health means, which is also why I'm not willing to make grand statements about the magnitude without having actual data on hand.


Finally, teams have a choice in spending, above the cap floor that is. If you budget spending to necessitate reaching the second round of the playoffs, you are betting, taking a gamble. As for ROI and opportunity cost.... well, that's another kettle of fish altogether when it comes to owning a pro sports team.

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11-16-2012, 04:31 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by ThePhoenixx View Post
Mid-market with a really big-market owner who will spend, spend, spend....

You guys are very, very lucky to have the owner you do.

The teams whose spending was cited as justification for the last lockout were teams like Colorado and Detroit, not just NYR and Toronto or Philly.

Atlanta and San Jose are larger metro areas than Detroit. But to get back to the original point, I still think the only case of a small market team paying out Sakic or Lindros money, is Nashville, and that just happened.

Here are links to Sakic's and Lindros's career earnings, noting that Sakic has a three yr headstart on this salary site. Lindros's lifetime earnings were certainly affected by the timing of his injuries relative to when salaries ticked upwards (he was making $8.5 MM when Sakic got his $17 MM offer sheet payment). Then the gaps start appearing.

Lindros has a higher rate of appreciation before he's beset by injuries, but they're on par by the 98 or so timeframe. Sakic will earn over 65% of his money after 2000, a point where Lindros' career is really over given the injury history.


http://www.hockeyzoneplus.com/search...earchdbdisplay

http://www.hockeyzoneplus.com/search...earchdbdisplay

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11-16-2012, 04:44 PM
  #86
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Really? Workers don't have a right to be paid for their services? Guess they should just be slaves.
I think that may be a bit dramatic.

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11-16-2012, 05:00 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
No, there aren't 'several' sources. There's Forbes' guesstimates, McGuire's recent general comment, and a sprinkling here and there. The only teams whose financial records come close to full disclosure was Phoenix during the bankruptcy trial, and Nashville due to the city subsidies given on the arena (team has to disclose financial info). Apparently the Panthers have to divulge certain info to Broward County in Florida.

I understand perfectly what financial health means, which is also why I'm not willing to make grand statements about the magnitude without having actual data on hand.

Finally, teams have a choice in spending, above the cap floor that is. If you budget spending to necessitate reaching the second round of the playoffs, you are betting, taking a gamble. As for ROI and opportunity cost.... well, that's another kettle of fish altogether when it comes to owning a pro sports team.
In fact, you are the one that made the initial statement that teams were healthy. We can get a general idea of individual teams or groups of teams, and from overall league profit, we can see that the league is not financially stable and that most teams are running into some form of trouble.

Regardless, if neither of us have solid proof of either side, then there is no reason not to believe the league when they say that they are in trouble.

Also, no, there isn't much of a choice in spending. If they don't spend to keep their players or provide a winning team, they automatically lose money. If they do spend to keep their players, they at least have a chance to make their money back with playoff revenue, at the expense of another team of course.

The system will always be bias in favour of the players. That is why the CBA needs to have proper structure to prevent things from getting out of hand and hurting the league (and ultimately the players).

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11-16-2012, 05:30 PM
  #88
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Can't wait to watch Hockey Central tonight an listen to Kypreos and May applaud Lindros' comments after ripping into Recchi and Roenick...

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11-16-2012, 05:36 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by The Last Dynasty View Post
ya, really hurt Joe Sakic
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Originally Posted by The Last Dynasty View Post
so you think Eric was a bigger star playing in Philly as opposed to Quebec/Colrado?
Yes. Why did Lebron go to Miami again? Where can you get more endorsement money, Edmonton or Toronto? Small markets having an FA problem is proof lindros dad was right. People avoided the oliers and they won 5 cups.

And Sakic signed a RFA sheet in 1997.


Last edited by Melrose Munch: 11-16-2012 at 05:54 PM.
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Old
11-16-2012, 05:47 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
The teams whose spending was cited as justification for the last lockout were teams like Colorado and Detroit, not just NYR and Toronto or Philly.

Atlanta and San Jose are larger metro areas than Detroit. But to get back to the original point, I still think the only case of a small market team paying out Sakic or Lindros money, is Nashville, and that just happened.

Here are links to Sakic's and Lindros's career earnings, noting that Sakic has a three yr headstart on this salary site. Lindros's lifetime earnings were certainly affected by the timing of his injuries relative to when salaries ticked upwards (he was making $8.5 MM when Sakic got his $17 MM offer sheet payment). Then the gaps start appearing.

Lindros has a higher rate of appreciation before he's beset by injuries, but they're on par by the 98 or so timeframe. Sakic will earn over 65% of his money after 2000, a point where Lindros' career is really over given the injury history.


http://www.hockeyzoneplus.com/search...earchdbdisplay

http://www.hockeyzoneplus.com/search...earchdbdisplay
The original argument was concerning the Lindros decision.

Injuries aside, Lindros should have made a lot more money than Sakic. He was the better player.

That he didn't shows how wrong the Lindros' were when they forced the trade. The sad part is that his parents seemed more concerned with the money than Eric's happiness and well-being.

I guess that is beside the point though.

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11-16-2012, 07:00 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by ThePhoenixx View Post
The original argument was concerning the Lindros decision.

Injuries aside, Lindros should have made a lot more money than Sakic. He was the better player.

That he didn't shows how wrong the Lindros' were when they forced the trade. The sad part is that his parents seemed more concerned with the money than Eric's happiness and well-being.

I guess that is beside the point though.
Ah, gotcha. I was stuck in Quebec vs Philly mode. Would they have acted differently if the team had already been in Colorado? No way to know really. Yes, I think the meddling was too great in his case, and seems to have continued beyond his playing days.

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11-16-2012, 07:06 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
In fact, you are the one that made the initial statement that teams were healthy. We can get a general idea of individual teams or groups of teams, and from overall league profit, we can see that the league is not financially stable and that most teams are running into some form of trouble.

Regardless, if neither of us have solid proof of either side, then there is no reason not to believe the league when they say that they are in trouble.


Also, no, there isn't much of a choice in spending. If they don't spend to keep their players or provide a winning team, they automatically lose money. If they do spend to keep their players, they at least have a chance to make their money back with playoff revenue, at the expense of another team of course.

The system will always be bias in favour of the players. That is why the CBA needs to have proper structure to prevent things from getting out of hand and hurting the league (and ultimately the players).
There is every reason to believe that owners will misrepresent their finances. Look at the nasty mess from the leaked MLB financial records. Many teams crying poor when the reality was they were rolling in the dough. It's not just aimed at getting better terms with players, but better leases or having arenas built for them, and so on.

I guess the best measure in the absence of our own ability to get that type of data is franchise sales. When a team is clearing hemorrhaging money, no one will buy it unless they can find terms that will help them make a go of it. Phoenix is not worth the current asking price. Someone has to throw money into it to make up the difference. Several teams have seen their franchise values deteriorate. On the other hand, Montreal and Toronto were also recently sold, and Katz paid more for the Oilers than Vinik did for Tampa or the St Louis price. We can then infer that teams that seem to have quick sales are not losing money, and especially if the sale price is higher than the last one or as compared to similar teams.

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11-16-2012, 07:21 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
There is every reason to believe that owners will misrepresent their finances. Look at the nasty mess from the leaked MLB financial records. Many teams crying poor when the reality was they were rolling in the dough. It's not just aimed at getting better terms with players, but better leases or having arenas built for them, and so on.

I guess the best measure in the absence of our own ability to get that type of data is franchise sales. When a team is clearing hemorrhaging money, no one will buy it unless they can find terms that will help them make a go of it. Phoenix is not worth the current asking price. Someone has to throw money into it to make up the difference. Several teams have seen their franchise values deteriorate. On the other hand, Montreal and Toronto were also recently sold, and Katz paid more for the Oilers than Vinik did for Tampa or the St Louis price. We can then infer that teams that seem to have quick sales are not losing money, and especially if the sale price is higher than the last one or as compared to similar teams.
That is not at all an accurate way to judge profits and losses. So few teams are bought and sold (and some of them are sold as part of a bigger package like Toronto), and so many factors aside from hockey revenue are involved. How quickly a team sells can have just as much to do with the location, the individual and the market landscape as it does the actual team.

The information we do have is enough to form some sort of range of profits and struggling teams, which no matter what is negative for the league.

You yourself just said there are teams that are not worth it and franchises had their values deteriorate. That is a problem.

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11-16-2012, 07:31 PM
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Does Lindros understand that players salaries are tied to revenue?
then keep it at 43/57....at pay the players depending on linkage.....


but of course the NHL wants 50/50...so they need to buck up on covering the contracts to a large degree.

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11-16-2012, 11:30 PM
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how ironic that the roots of 2012-13 NHL lockout can be traced back to Lindros and his henchmen sacking paul kelly which opened up the opportunity to allow donald fehr assume head of the PA...

http://nesn.com/2009/08/kelly-firing...l-never-learn/
THANK YOU!!!! Its amazing that people call themselves hockey people and forget the months Kelly was head of the PA. Kelly and Bettman were pro-actively working on issues -such as back-diiving contracts- . The agents and players didnt like proactive... and the relationship was seen as too friendly (bettman got invited to talk to the PA membership where he gained alot of respect in the eyes of the players for dealing ith and answering all questions, canceling other meetings to make sure every thought and question had been answered). Kelly was the guy who put away Eagleson FFS...

If Kelly was still in charge the NHL doesnt have a lockout. why? because he is a pushover? no, because he would have worked with the league towards solutions and THERE WAS A GENUINE TRUST AND PARTNERSHIP.

For the firing of Kelly i blame the PA for this lockout. There is no way Kelly would have waited until the 11th hour. Also anyone who knows Fehrs history would know the NHL cant trust him. Yeah lets negotiate through a season with no labor agreement so Fehr can hold the playoffs for ransom. The guy is a POS. Just ask baseball fans.

Bettman proved in the Kelly era that he is not the problem.

Fehr --- the man that destroyed baseball so badly it needed steroids to be brought back to relevancy.


Last edited by oilinblood: 11-17-2012 at 12:09 AM.
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11-17-2012, 12:38 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by crazyforhockey View Post
then keep it at 43/57....at pay the players depending on linkage.....


but of course the NHL wants 50/50...so they need to buck up on covering the contracts to a large degree.
Both splits are linked. Dont get caught in the red herrings. This is mostly about keeping their existing contracts despite the noise.

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11-17-2012, 02:38 AM
  #97
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will you people PLEASE stop calling the NHLPA a union??!! they are not even close to being a "union". a "union" member doesnt get to negotiate his/her "individual" contract. they make what the "union" pay scale says they make. as a welder in the "united steel workers" you will be paid X amount of dollars per hour. take it or leave it, thats up to you. there are no signing bonuses (parise, suter,and a few others ), "performance bonuses", "roster bonuses".....you would be lucky if the company gives you a frozen turkey for thanksgiving.
the national hockey league players ASSOCIATION is pretty much the polar opposite of a true 'UNION".

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11-17-2012, 02:56 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Eric Lindros. Hilarious. Why would anyone care what that goof thinks about anything?

He is indignant about the owners not living up to their obligations and what's fair?

Is this guy serious?
Have to love the irony, eh? Lindros never had problems with unfair when it benefited him.

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11-17-2012, 04:01 AM
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will you people PLEASE stop calling the NHLPA a union??!! they are not even close to being a "union". a "union" member doesnt get to negotiate his/her "individual" contract. they make what the "union" pay scale says they make. as a welder in the "united steel workers" you will be paid X amount of dollars per hour. take it or leave it, thats up to you. there are no signing bonuses (parise, suter,and a few others ), "performance bonuses", "roster bonuses".....you would be lucky if the company gives you a frozen turkey for thanksgiving.
the national hockey league players ASSOCIATION is pretty much the polar opposite of a true 'UNION".
The NHLPA is a union. It acts as the sole collective bargaining agent for its membership. Although individual salaries are negotiated between each NHLPA member and an NHL franchise, that all takes place under the framework of the CBA negotiated between the NHLPA and NHL.

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11-17-2012, 02:45 PM
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The notion that Lindros would not have been rich playing in Quebec is ludicrous. For goodness sake, the team offered him a $50 million for 10 years contract in 1991, at a time when the average salary was $230,000. It obviously wasn't about the money. Even at the end of this contract, $5 million per year in 2001 would have still been an upper echelon deal and he would have been a mere 28 years old and a free agent.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=0cf4...ed=0CG0Q6AEwCQ

The rookie contract he eventually signed with the Flyers a year later was less than half that

Quote:
$2.5-million signing bonus (to be paid in increments of $500,000 per season), plus a base salary of $2 million for two seasons and $2.5 million for the four seasons after that,
and still more than established stars

Quote:
Mark Messier, who won the Hart Trophy the previous season, was earning $1.5 million per year
even though Lindros had not played a single game in the NHL. That contract and Lindros's attitude has a lot to do with the contract-inflation problems we're still feeling nowadays and that the CBA negotiations have tried to address in recent years. He was the original banner bearer for a new generation of individualistic players who don't care about team spirit, the good of the sport or even their fellow NHL players and soon we witnessed the lack of respect and restraint when hitting with players trying to actually hurt one another more frequently. It was all about me me me for Eric.

http://blogs.montrealgazette.com/201...-skyrocketing/

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