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Everybody's talking at me; I don't hear a word they're saying (CBA/Lockout XXIX)

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11-16-2012, 03:41 PM
  #426
PeterSidorkiewicz
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Originally Posted by buggs View Post
I would say the first proposal was both cleverly and obviously crafted to achieve the goal of showing that a 57-43 split was unfair. Why is that so hard to see?
I thought a CBA proposal was to propose a legitimate offer in good faith, not to try to prove a point on something. It doesn't seem clever to me since it failed to achieve anything.

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11-16-2012, 03:42 PM
  #427
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Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
http://spectorshockey.net/blog/new-n...-market-teams/

Richardson: New CBA won't help small market teams
It's naive to think the league will be able to get full parity through a CBA. At some point the financial muscle of a team will be an advantage. Compared to many other leagues (and this league historically) this league gives a better chance for small market teams to succeed.

You're not going to get a CBA that's perfect for everyone.

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11-16-2012, 03:42 PM
  #428
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Originally Posted by buggs View Post
I would say the first proposal was both cleverly and obviously crafted to achieve the goal of showing that a 57-43 split was unfair. Why is that so hard to see?
its hard to see because it is fair for the players to have 57% but not the owners...

the owners wanting anything above 45% is them being greedy and uncaring to the fans and the poor players who at worst make 500k a year to sit on a bench.

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11-16-2012, 03:45 PM
  #429
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Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
http://spectorshockey.net/blog/new-n...-market-teams/

Richardson: New CBA won't help small market teams
Two main takeaway thoughts for me.

Quote:
Like the previous two NHL lockouts, this one isn’t about struggling or small markets. If it were, we’d see more owners of those clubs participating in the CBA negotiations, rather than their current relegation to the sidelines while the league’s negotiators and several hawkish, big market owners make the decisions for them.
One - the journalists have no idea what they're talking about regarding which owners are doing what. We have one report insisting it's the small markets running the hard line show right now then this guy says its all the large markets are running the show. They can't both be right.

Quote:
Regardless of where the salary cap sits after this season, payroll is bound to increase for the Jets. If, as Lawless suggests, they remain at or near the top of their revenue cycle, they’ll eventually face a loss. To off-set that problem, they could charge higher prices, but sooner or later those prices will become unsustainable for such a small market.

Two - the "send all the teams to Canada, profit" crowd needs to read the analysis about how Winnipeg made "not very much" profit, with the league's 25th highest salary, that they expect to be the largest they ever make, and will eventually be reduced to losing money and/or losing all their star players.

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11-16-2012, 03:45 PM
  #430
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Originally Posted by PeterSidorkiewicz View Post
Aha, so they want to make a lot of profit, and also see their franchise value's skyrocket.

On another topic, with the NHL's tactics and arrogant attitude for most of these CBA negotiations, I assume that "partnership" BS rhetoric Bettman spewed after the last CBA has been thrown out the window?

I'm sorry, but actually reading the mass amounts of hate on the NHLPA in this thread I cannot help but play devils advocate a little bit. To be honest after being a fan since 93, I'm tired of all this BS from both sides, and can't believe I'm still investing time following this lockout a little bit, although not nearly as much as the previous one.

As someone who is sick of it all and doesn't have a "side" in the matter and just wants something done, I just can't wrap my head around so much vitriol at the PA, without the least bit of the same thrown at the NHL, especially after their horrible negotiating tactics and strategy this entire lockout. And I'm not saying the PA has been great at its tactics either, but sheesh everything in this thread is directed at them specifically.
I'd have to agree. The PA is getting the most amount of criticism in these negotiations. I've been of the mind that both sides share blame here and playing games with one another. I don't pick up for PA side enough but I can only speak for myself when I say that the players getting publicly involved and reiterating spinning tales to make themselves look better is a point I choose not to ignore and when I've come to enjoy picking them apart for it. I dont hate these guys in the least nor do I think less of them but it's astounding how so many of them behave hypocrisy for their own cause and then act like they're educating the fans. I again can't speak for others but if the owners were allowed to unleash in the same manner as the players, I feel confident in saying that my post count would be double what it is currently.

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11-16-2012, 03:48 PM
  #431
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Originally Posted by Noldo View Post
Because without rules in place the NHL does not have the power to reject those contracts. Thus NHL needs to get the necessary rules in place, like they are now trying to do.
They were able to reject Kovalchuk's first deal pretty easily (and punish the Devils in the process)

It makes me wonder though... is the 50/50 split a red herring, and it's really the yearly variance / cap circumventing contracts what the NHL's really after?

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11-16-2012, 03:48 PM
  #432
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This is business, if the PA chooses to act ******** over the first offer it's their problem. The NHL offered 57/43 and the middle ground is 50/50: thinking of it as a draconian offer is short sighted. A first offer is not the end game but it does indicate where the end game should be.

The two sides had a marathon of talks and nothing came of it. We've heard that the PA is still insisting on delinked proposals which are a no go and has not made any offers on contractual rights: instead they simply say no to what the NHL offers. The NHL feels the talks are going nowhere and allowing Fehr to aggravate them (because that is his strategy) is no a recipe for success.

The NHL has not attacked Fehr. Bill Daly has said that he feels this is going nowhere and has attributed that to Fehr not making any serious proposals and simply saying no to what the NHL offers. All the stuff about "Fehr is not conveying the proposals to the players" was "off the record": someone told someone else that's what they thought and a journalist ran the story.
There's 2 sides to everything though, you say the PA can choose to act ******** over the first offer. I can say the NHL is choosing to act ******** over the PA not liking their offers. Hasn't the NHL mandated that they go off of their offers, and also has said there is no room for serious negotiating on any of their contract stipulations? To me, that seems ridiculous.

A lot of people say on here "The previous CBA Doesn't matter, its a different financial situation, etc etc" as a reasoning for the NHL's offers. Two can play that game, right? The previous CBA has nothing to do with the new CBA, so de-linked offers are just as legitimate than linked offers going by that line of reasoning everyone here chooses to use.

Personally, I'm just not a fan of the demonization of the NHLPA here. If you actually want my real thought (not that it matters) I believe the NHLPA will ultimately loose out, because money is power, and the owners have the most power IMO.

If I had a carte blanche on the matter I'd personally do a 50-50 split, which is fair, all previous contracts honoured, and no changes to the current contract structure.

Maybe asking for 1 major concession per CBA is better than asking for 5.

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11-16-2012, 03:54 PM
  #433
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Originally Posted by Stewie Griffin View Post
They were able to reject Kovalchuk's first deal pretty easily (and punish the Devils in the process)

It makes me wonder though... is the 50/50 split a red herring, and it's really the yearly variance / cap circumventing contracts what the NHL's really after?
pretty easy? They were fought tooth and nail by the PA. They just won the arbitration. They then made a makeshift agreement with the NHLPA that would have covered the Suter, Parise contracts. NHLPA would have fought them again if they didn't approve them .

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11-16-2012, 03:54 PM
  #434
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Originally Posted by PeterSidorkiewicz View Post
I thought a CBA proposal was to propose a legitimate offer in good faith, not to try to prove a point on something. It doesn't seem clever to me since it failed to achieve anything.
Unfortunately you are wrong. A first offer is meant to be something both sides can negotiate off of and that was the intent: I offer this, you want this, I give up on this, you give up on that. Eventually things end up in the middle and that offer, in the middle would have ended at 50/50.

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11-16-2012, 03:56 PM
  #435
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Originally Posted by Canadian Guy View Post
Unfortunately you are wrong. A first offer is meant to be something both sides can negotiate off of and that was the intent: I offer this, you want this, I give up on this, you give up on that. Eventually things end up in the middle and that offer, in the middle would have ended at 50/50.
Bettman even said it was a similar starting offer as NBAs first offer. Does he has to wear a "50/50" t-shirt for people to understand what that opening offer means.

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11-16-2012, 03:57 PM
  #436
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KKurzCSN 1:42pm via Twitter for Mac
Boyle: “I don’t understand it, bc time is of the essence. I’d rather hammer away at it than waste another 2 weeks when time is so crucial.”

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11-16-2012, 03:58 PM
  #437
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Originally Posted by PeterSidorkiewicz View Post
There's 2 sides to everything though, you say the PA can choose to act ******** over the first offer. I can say the NHL is choosing to act ******** over the PA not liking their offers. Hasn't the NHL mandated that they go off of their offers, and also has said there is no room for serious negotiating on any of their contract stipulations? To me, that seems ridiculous.

A lot of people say on here "The previous CBA Doesn't matter, its a different financial situation, etc etc" as a reasoning for the NHL's offers. Two can play that game, right? The previous CBA has nothing to do with the new CBA, so de-linked offers are just as legitimate than linked offers going by that line of reasoning everyone here chooses to use.

Personally, I'm just not a fan of the demonization of the NHLPA here. If you actually want my real thought (not that it matters) I believe the NHLPA will ultimately loose out, because money is power, and the owners have the most power IMO.

If I had a carte blanche on the matter I'd personally do a 50-50 split, which is fair, all previous contracts honoured, and no changes to the current contract structure.

Maybe asking for 1 major concession per CBA is better than asking for 5.
You're right; the NHLPA is fully within their rights to ask for de -linked cap. However, when the last CBA already proved to be on the players side and gave too much risk to individual owners, its not likely the owners will ever accept the proposal that swings even more risk onto them so the reason people are brutal on them for continuing to propose it is because its fairly obvious it won't lead to a deal.

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11-16-2012, 03:59 PM
  #438
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It seems very easy to work out why we are where we are in this situation: players are more emotional than rational. You can see this through all of their comments; that is why Fehr can control the them. I'm sure all he has to do is recite a speech about them giving up everything and how they lost the last CBA and they fall right back in line.

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11-16-2012, 04:00 PM
  #439
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Originally Posted by Stewie Griffin View Post
They were able to reject Kovalchuk's first deal pretty easily (and punish the Devils in the process)

It makes me wonder though... is the 50/50 split a red herring, and it's really the yearly variance / cap circumventing contracts what the NHL's really after?
From a timeline perspective that wouldn't make sense...at least not to me. If HRR split was a distraction while the contract issues were the real focus, why allow months to be wasted talking exclusively about HRR? I would think if the owners got what they wanted they wouldnt want to miss games just for giggles. Why only start discussing contracts as of last week? I know the PA proposal only focused on HRR, but while they league pointed out that the PA was only responding to one topic on their proposal, they didnt try very hard to redirect the discussion to contracts. Maybe you're right but I see that as an awfully stupid and wasteful tactic by the league.

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11-16-2012, 04:01 PM
  #440
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Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
KKurzCSN 1:42pm via Twitter for Mac
Boyle: “I don’t understand it, bc time is of the essence. I’d rather hammer away at it than waste another 2 weeks when time is so crucial.”
Hey Dan, if you want a deal done tell your PA to offer something else than the same crap over and over. MOD


Last edited by LadyStanley: 11-16-2012 at 04:40 PM. Reason: natd
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11-16-2012, 04:03 PM
  #441
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Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
KKurzCSN 1:42pm via Twitter for Mac
Boyle: “I don’t understand it, bc time is of the essence. I’d rather hammer away at it than waste another 2 weeks when time is so crucial.”
He should tell his union reps that. They've been comatose since June.

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11-16-2012, 04:07 PM
  #442
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How about the players throwing their endorsement money into HRR?
or top players revenue sharing with the fourth liners that are having a hard time making ends meet?

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11-16-2012, 04:09 PM
  #443
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The biggest winner of the NHL lockout? The Toronto Blue Jays. That club hasn't been talked about in November since 1993, but now they're making moves left and right... and they have nobody to take their spot on the front cover of the sports (except maybe the Raptors... On a good night.)

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11-16-2012, 04:09 PM
  #444
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The biggest winner of the NHL lockout? The Toronto Blue Jays. That club hasn't been talked about in November since 1993, but now they're making moves left and right... and they have nobody to take their spot on the front cover of the sports (except maybe the Raptors... On a good night.)
That raptors team is so poorly run

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11-16-2012, 04:11 PM
  #445
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Originally Posted by CerebralGenesis View Post
He should tell his union reps that. They've been comatose since June.
More like January. I love how the NHLPA is now cranking down on the "time is running out!" line, despite being the party that delayed the start of negotiations for months.

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11-16-2012, 04:12 PM
  #446
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pretty easy? They were fought tooth and nail by the PA. They just won the arbitration. They then made a makeshift agreement with the NHLPA that would have covered the Suter, Parise contracts. NHLPA would have fought them again if they didn't approve them .
The rejection part was easy - the fight afterwards, not so much.

I honestly didn't know about an agreement struck between the NHL & PA on this matter though. Point me at it?

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11-16-2012, 04:16 PM
  #447
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The article cited a local article written by Gary Lawless..... his opinion plus $2.00 gets you a cup of coffee.
That article is garbage overall. TLDR version: 'I don't believe that squeezing salaries will help, so let's not even try it. BTW, I will present no solution either.'

He goes on to say how cutting revenues from '75 to 57 didn't help, so why would 50/50'.

It did help. But it was ultimately just a bandage, some of it was wrong and some of it was right; a kick of the can that should have been better. In 2003, the league posted a brutal net loss of $273 million. Revenues were $1.99 billion but player salaries consumed $1.5 billion of that. Add in operation costs and about 3 teams were making money.

Fast forward to 2012, and the league actually has a meager profit of $190 million, but the median team is still struggling. So let's take another kick at the can and stop making goo-goo eyes at the players.

People talk about how badly the players took in the last CBA? The 'dark times' that they are rallying around now?

03-04 : Average salary $1.83 million
04-05 : No season
05-06 : Average salary $1.46 million (big bad rollback)
06-07 : ? can't find the numbers
07-08 : Average salary $1.9 million

Didn't take long for them to exceed the $1.83 they were making before. They had two lean years, if you can call them that.

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11-16-2012, 04:18 PM
  #448
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You mean the guys who have had the league growing at a better rate than the other 3 big sports. The guys that have seen players salaries increase by a factor on 6 higher than the other sports. Yes its all Gary's fault.
A byproduct of the last lockout was a renewed focus on the on ice product. After 10+ years of letting the game deteriorate, Gary finally got around to cleaning it up a little. Since then his "leadership" has botched the concussion issue, made a mess of suspensions and let the game regress. Gary leaves money on the table because he doesn't focus on the game and doesn't care what the fans think.

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Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
They'd be getting that in real salary anyway over the first 5 years on an offer from a big team. In fact, the first few years would likely be higher, based on what Parise just got. All this does is makes sure teams have to pay a fair cap hit. Which means a rich team can't pay them both 24M but only use up 15M in cap space. Which actually makes it easier for the small teams to sign these guys, because said big teams no longer have the cap room to take all the star players.
Teams will do anything they can to get those players, I would. Weber is easily worth that to a franchise imo. If the Preds could chose between the deal Weber got or 5 x 12m and having him be a free-agent again in 5 years, which would they chose?

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11-16-2012, 04:18 PM
  #449
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The rejection part was easy - the fight afterwards, not so much.

I honestly didn't know about an agreement struck between the NHL & PA on this matter though. Point me at it?
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=332542

The second half of the article deals with the agreement on the new rules regarding long term contracts.

Basically, if someone signs a long term contract that takes them past the age of 40, the salaries in the seasons he's 40 and older don't count towards calculating the average cap hit for while he's under 40, while his cap hit when he's 40 or above is his actual salary for those years. It makes it so they can't use years in their 40's to drag down the cap hit. Also, while the salary can be under $1 million between the ages 35-39, of it is, they prop it up to $1 million to calculate the cap hit.


Last edited by PensFanSince1989: 11-16-2012 at 04:24 PM.
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11-16-2012, 04:24 PM
  #450
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Since we were allowed to talk about the Twinkie thing in the big thread, figure I'd throw this off topic nugget out as well since it's okay I assume. Wal-Mart workers planning strikes due to low wages/working thanksgiving with basically no forewarning, and Wal-Mart stopping to pay healthcare premiums for it's workers. I know workers have been trying to unionize for awhile, hopefully it happens sooner rather than later. I just don't get it, Henry Ford was an *******, but at least he was smart enough to pay his workers enough money that they could actually buy his products.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles...-friday-strike

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