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What the Maple Leafs REALLY need

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Old
11-15-2012, 05:45 PM
  #51
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We just need a future hall of fame first line center with some size and speed.

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11-15-2012, 09:01 PM
  #52
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We just need a future hall of fame first line center with some size and speed.
LOL yea and then we'll suddenly go on to win the stanley cup too

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11-16-2012, 09:53 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
No, he wouldn't have. There is nothing that supports this notion either. Way worse GMs getting way worse results have lasted way longer.

You don't bring in one of the best and most respected GMs in the league (after essentially waiting a year for him to become available), make him GM and President and pay him well for coming here, and then fire him for somebody worse, 4 years into a rebuild.

It just doesn't happen.
With worse results than Brian Burke's time in Toronto ? example PLEASE !!!!!!

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11-16-2012, 09:58 AM
  #54
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Completely ridiculous.

The owners would make a TON of money if this team made it to the playoffs, especially if they went deep, and especially if they won the SC. An average playoff game is something like ~1M in pure profit for owners, for the Maple Leafs? Who have the most expensive tickets in the league? It's probably something like 2M a game, maybe more. Throw in the significant increases in revenue due to people buying merchandise. Their profit margins would soar. ~8-16 playoff home games + merchandise sales.

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11-16-2012, 10:01 AM
  #55
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Hopefully Brian Burke was inspired by alex anthopoulos' recent acquisition and is currently scheming to do the same; that is unless he's planning on living on the streets forever. In which case, we're all screwed.

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11-16-2012, 10:11 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by mashedpotato View Post
Hopefully Brian Burke was inspired by alex anthopoulos' recent acquisition and is currently scheming to do the same; that is unless he's planning on living on the streets forever. In which case, we're all screwed.
Maple Leafs don't have the prospect depth to make that kind of move, and the Leafs also aren't just one big trade away from competing. Doing something like that would likely sacrifice this teams long-term competitive ability in order to just be somewhat more competitive in the short-term, but ultimately not good enough to win anything.

Jays weren't in the same position as the Leafs. Getting a top notch free agent would be the best way to "accelerate" the rebuild, since it wouldn't cost us anything in terms of assets.

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11-16-2012, 10:40 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Baun View Post
With worse results than Brian Burke's time in Toronto ? example PLEASE !!!!!!
Garth Snow
Steve Tambellini
Scott Howson

For sure 2 of them have been in their positions longer than Burke.

It also depends how you define success. I believe that at the end
of a season, there is only one winner. The current GM of that winner
had 2 1st round exits, and 3 out of playoffs seasons, in the past
5 seasons.

Glen Sather in his 13 years at NYR, has only gotten past the 1st
round twice.

If you want to count 4 years as a benchmark, Ken Holland hasn't
won in 4 years now either.

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Old
11-16-2012, 10:49 AM
  #58
Ricky Bobby
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Originally Posted by Kingstonian84 View Post
I think you misread what I meant by skill, I meant offensive talent upfront (Lupul, Kessel, Grabo, JVR, Kulemin) we have enough talent to play with the big boys but like I said we are lacking defensive smarts, heart/soul players and yes a legit goalie.
I interpret it as we're missing impact players which to me are skill players.

I think we've got plenty of gritty heart and soul players like Brown, Frattin, Kulemin but our core (top 5-7 players) is weaker then other teams.

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11-16-2012, 12:31 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Common misconception.

We have a high payroll, one of the biggest management teams, and offer all of the perks that a rich team can.

Playoff Revenue alone makes any so-called "complacency" a bad business approach. Add in increased merchandise sales, ticket price increases, and a Stanley Cup-sized increase in franchise value that go along with it, you better believe they do everything they can to win.

If they really wanted to make more money, they wouldn't sacrifice the team. They would just charge the fans more money.
Agreed. This is bang on.

The only time I would ever agree with someone saying they were sick of supporting the Leafs and that they ought to sell their tickets to "send a message" to ownership, would be if I thought I might convince that schmuck to sell me his season-ticket rights.

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Old
11-16-2012, 02:23 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Bob Baun View Post
With worse results than Brian Burke's time in Toronto ? example PLEASE !!!!!!
Take your pick. Any GM in Burke's situation being fired in 4 years is unheard of.

Also remember that position in the standings in any given year is not the sole determining factor for a GM being good or bad.

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11-16-2012, 02:28 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Take your pick. Any GM in Burke's situation being fired in 4 years is unheard of.

Also remember that position in the standings in any given year is not the sole determining factor for a GM being good or bad.
It's time to look at this objectively here! Has Burke in 4 years brought in a legit goalie? No Has he improved the team in the standings? No Has he brought in grit/defensive acumen to the bottom 6? No Has he lived up to his promise 4 years ago about the leafs being a "meaner, badder, tougher team to play against"? No

Yes he has beefed up the Marlies, but even then that team is littered with bottom 6'ers, guys who can't hack the NHL (Dupuis), and mid ranged pairing defencmen. I'll give him credit he has brought in some good pieces (Phaneuf, Kessel, Gardiner, Lupul) but at the end of the day this team is not much if at all better then what it was 5 years ago.

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11-16-2012, 02:30 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Riddarn View Post
pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence.
And a goalie.

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11-16-2012, 03:21 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Kingstonian84 View Post
It's time to look at this objectively here! Has Burke in 4 years brought in a legit goalie? No Has he improved the team in the standings? No Has he brought in grit/defensive acumen to the bottom 6? No Has he lived up to his promise 4 years ago about the leafs being a "meaner, badder, tougher team to play against"? No

Yes he has beefed up the Marlies, but even then that team is littered with bottom 6'ers, guys who can't hack the NHL (Dupuis), and mid ranged pairing defencmen. I'll give him credit he has brought in some good pieces (Phaneuf, Kessel, Gardiner, Lupul) but at the end of the day this team is not much if at all better then what it was 5 years ago.
The problem is too many people, probably because of a faulty educational system, see the world as "did he do this or did he not" instead of "why did he or did he not do this". Add in impatience from the current generation and we get anti-Burke tantrums. Context is everything.

Also, yes, Burke has brought in goalies. Standings are meaningless for a rebuilding team, and he has given us stretches (including majority of seasons) better than anything we have seen post-lockout. We have more than bottom-6ers as prospects. And the funny thing is, you name these top players that Burke has acquired, and then say "Where are the bottom-6 tough guys?", and then bash on the bottom-6 tough guys that we have in the system. Burke never promised an instantly tougher team, but he has made strides through our prospects. Also, Dupuis is not on the Marlies anymore.

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11-16-2012, 03:21 PM
  #64
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Patience.

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Old
11-16-2012, 03:52 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
The problem is too many people, probably because of a faulty educational system, see the world as "did he do this or did he not" instead of "why did he or did he not do this". Add in impatience from the current generation and we get anti-Burke tantrums. Context is everything.

Also, yes, Burke has brought in goalies. Standings are meaningless for a rebuilding team, and he has given us stretches (including majority of seasons) better than anything we have seen post-lockout. We have more than bottom-6ers as prospects. And the funny thing is, you name these top players that Burke has acquired, and then say "Where are the bottom-6 tough guys?", and then bash on the bottom-6 tough guys that we have in the system. Burke never promised an instantly tougher team, but he has made strides through our prospects. Also, Dupuis is not on the Marlies anymore.
- I never denied he HASN"T brought in goalies, my argument is that he hasn't done his research IMO and the starting goalies he HAS broughten in have flopped miserably, this has been a pattern with Burke dating back to his GM days with Vancouver. I never said we had to be a playoff contending team but come on lets be honest here the season before Burke took over we were slightly better then a lottery team and 4 years into his tenure we are an actual lottery team, we have actually regressed instead of improving. As for prospects the only top 6 forwards he has are Kadri and possibly Colborne, that is ALL he has to show for since he took over in 08, that is really pathetic IMO.

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11-16-2012, 03:53 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Pyrophorus View Post
Garth Snow
Steve Tambellini
Scott Howson

For sure 2 of them have been in their positions longer than Burke.

It also depends how you define success. I believe that at the end
of a season, there is only one winner. The current GM of that winner
had 2 1st round exits, and 3 out of playoffs seasons, in the past
5 seasons.

Glen Sather in his 13 years at NYR, has only gotten past the 1st
round twice.

If you want to count 4 years as a benchmark, Ken Holland hasn't
won in 4 years now either.

Steve Tambellini has Hall, Yakupov, RNH and Schultz to show for his time in Edm. Burke's biggest trade is a rather questionable one IMO, drafting has been good, but if he wanted to go that route the 2 1s and 2nd should never have been traded. The man is disorganized, and his plans seem to change on a daily basis.

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Old
11-16-2012, 03:58 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Leafs87 View Post
Steve Tambellini has Hall, Yakupov, RNH and Schultz to show for his time in Edm. Burke's biggest trade is a rather questionable one IMO, drafting has been good, but if he wanted to go that route the 2 1s and 2nd should never have been traded. The man is disorganized, and his plans seem to change on a daily basis.
Yes Tambellini has set the mark for incompetence, no question about that.

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Old
11-16-2012, 04:04 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Kingstonian84 View Post
- I never denied he HASN"T brought in goalies, my argument is that he hasn't done his research IMO and the starting goalies he HAS broughten in have flopped miserably, this has been a pattern with Burke dating back to his GM days with Vancouver. I never said we had to be a playoff contending team but come on lets be honest here the season before Burke took over we were slightly better then a lottery team and 4 years into his tenure we are an actual lottery team, we have actually regressed instead of improving. As for prospects the only top 6 forwards he has are Kadri and possibly Colborne, that is ALL he has to show for since he took over in 08, that is really pathetic IMO.
Finding a great goalie isn't just walking into a mall and picking it off the shelf after looking up customer reviews. It takes a lot of time, luck, and other people to work with. His lack of goalie success is not for lack of trying. He has tried a number of goalies.

Unfortunately, a lot of those goalies spent a lot of time injured.

You can't just say "yeah, well look what we did in 2008 and what we did this past year". Fact is, that 2008 team is not an option in 2012. People age, and our top players were either close to retirement or on the decline (and had NTC no less). Now our top players with more skill are just entering their primes and we have a deeper prospect pool.

Standings are also very variable from year to year, and can be impacted by so many things. Two teams of wildly different skill and potential can place the same in the standings in any given year, and identical teams can place in different places in the standings.

Kadri and Colborne are not our only top-6 forward prospects, and our top-6 is relatively full of young players already anyway. Bottom-6 players can have a huge impact in a game too, so I'm not sure why you are putting them down.

Not sure why you completely ignored our goalie prospects and our strongest position, defensive prospects, either.


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Old
11-16-2012, 04:05 PM
  #69
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Yes Tambellini has set the mark for incompetence, no question about that.
Actually, I have to disagree with this! While I don't agree with "tanking", Tambellini has a set plan in place which is to draft the best players and hope it pans out, I don't necessairly agree with it but in Edmonton's case its the best option because of an inability to draw in big name free agents. Burke on the other hand really doesn't have any plan in place, he's all over the map with his ideas, one minute its a rebuild the next its a push for the playoffs, say what you want about Tambellini but the man has a goal, so does Burke I suppose but there methods are night and day IMO.

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11-16-2012, 04:07 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Leafs87 View Post
Steve Tambellini has Hall, Yakupov, RNH and Schultz to show for his time in Edm.
And Burke has Kessel, Lupul, Phaneuf, Gardiner, Rielly, and superior secondary players and prospects to show for his.

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11-16-2012, 04:11 PM
  #71
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[QUOTE=Whydidijoin;55816997]Finding a great goalie isn't just walking into a mall and picking it off the shelf after looking up customer reviews. It takes a lot of time, luck, and other people to work with. His lack of goalie success is not for lack of trying. He has tried a number of goalies.

- I agree that its not 1-2-3 easy to get a legit goalie, they are hard to come by. But lets be honest Burke has a had a poor history of judging his goalies all the way back to Vancouver (Cloutier anyone?) and the only goalie he lucked out on was Hiller to an extent.

Unfortunately, a lot of those goalies spent a lot of time injured.
- Gus had a heart condition which Burke known or should have known about when courting after him. Giguere has a had a lengthy history of groin problems something which Burke WAS aware of when he traded for him as well back in 2010. Even though Burke didnt draft Riemer, he knew of his concussion history dating back to juniour leagues yet he elected to bump Giguere (not that Giggy was overly healthy either) in favour of a high prone injury risk in Riemer..... see a pattern here?

You can't just say "yeah, well look what we did in 2008 and what we did this past year". Fact is, that 2008 team is not an option in 2012. People age, and our top players were either close to retirement or on the decline (and had NTC no less). Now our top players are just entering their primes and we have a deeper prospect pool.

Standings are also very variable from year to year, and can be impacted by so many things. Two teams of wildly different skill and potential can place the same in the standings in any given year, and identical teams can place in different places in the standings.

- Fair enough BUT the leafs have ranged anywhere from 23rd-29th in Burkes time range here, no matter how you look at it its an ugly result.

Kadri and Colborne are not our only top-6 forward prospects, and our top-6 is relatively full of young players already anyway. Bottom-6 players can have a huge impact in a game too, so I'm not sure why you are putting them down.

- Umm yes they are at this point. Our top 6 is young? Umm try again.... Lupul is 30, Grabo turns 29 this year, Kulemin is 27 (prime), Kessel 24 (pushing prime years), Bozak 26 (prime), Mac 27 (prime). While are players aren't aging dinosaurs they aren't overly young either, our top 6 is basically at their peak translation for these should be THEIR best years.

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11-16-2012, 04:14 PM
  #72
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And Burke has Kessel, Lupul, Phaneuf, Gardiner, Rielly, and superior secondary players and prospects to show for his.
- Yes he has Kessel, Phaneuf, Gardiner all solid players. Lupul is 30 with no gurantee he is coming back again, Rielly while he has a lot of potential lets face it he is several years away from making any type of impact. Even WITH these players they are still a lottery team, now lets play the devils advocate here lets say Burke has iced more skilled team, funny thing is we are a lottery team now what does that tell you about the guy who is responsible for bringing in these players?

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11-16-2012, 04:31 PM
  #73
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- I agree that its not 1-2-3 easy to get a legit goalie, they are hard to come by. But lets be honest Burke has a had a poor history of judging his goalies all the way back to Vancouver (Cloutier anyone?) and the only goalie he lucked out on was Hiller to an extent.
I really don't care what you think about his past goalies. What is important is what he has done for the Leafs, and that includes trying like 9 goalies, including a former Conn Smythe and Stanley Cup winner (one of his so-called "terrible" past goalies), a rookie coming off one of the most spectacular half-seasons in recent memory, and an SEL record-setter that was pursued by over half the league.

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Originally Posted by Kingstonian84 View Post
- Gus had a heart condition which Burke known or should have known about when courting after him. Giguere has a had a lengthy history of groin problems something which Burke WAS aware of when he traded for him as well back in 2010. Even though Burke didnt draft Riemer, he knew of his concussion history dating back to juniour leagues yet he elected to bump Giguere (not that Giggy was overly healthy either) in favour of a high prone injury risk in Riemer..... see a pattern here?
Gustavsson had a heart condition that was supposed to be over and done with. Wasn't even who I was talking about though. Giguere had groin concerns, but they were supposed to be better when he came over. Most goalies these days have groin concerns. Giguere had 2 injured seasons here, and then went off to another team and had a healthy, great year, so it's not like he was run and done. Riemer is not injury prone, and his injury was a result of an in-game action that would have led to the same result for anybody. Toskala also went through a number of injury problems in his time here.

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- Umm yes they are at this point. Our top 6 is young? Umm try again.... Lupul is 30, Grabo turns 29 this year, Kulemin is 27 (prime), Kessel 24 (pushing prime years), Bozak 26 (prime), Mac 27 (prime). While are players aren't aging dinosaurs they aren't overly young either, our top 6 is basically at their peak translation for these should be THEIR best years.
At the time when we last saw these players play, Kessel was 24, Lupul was 28, Grabovski was 28, Phaneuf was 26, Gardiner was 21, Kulemin was 25, and JVR was 22. Not to mention Reimer who was 23. They have plenty of years left to contribute, and they are significant assets.

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11-16-2012, 04:37 PM
  #74
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- Yes he has Kessel, Phaneuf, Gardiner all solid players. Lupul is 30 with no gurantee he is coming back again, Rielly while he has a lot of potential lets face it he is several years away from making any type of impact. Even WITH these players they are still a lottery team, now lets play the devils advocate here lets say Burke has iced more skilled team, funny thing is we are a lottery team now what does that tell you about the guy who is responsible for bringing in these players?
Lupul just turned 29 (NOT 30), and there is no reason to believe that he won't be back.

Rielly will most likely be ready to make the team next year, assuming he gets a full junior year under his belt, and he is the type of player that can make an immediate impact.

As for being a lottery team, it tells me that all the right pieces aren't in place or experienced enough yet. That is all. It is the impatient and small-picture people who see that fact as an automatic failure where all players involved are bad and responsible.

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11-16-2012, 04:50 PM
  #75
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They do everything they can do within the CBA.
.
Hardly. Burke has never taken advantage of the CBA. Never. It's quite the opposite. He has even testified on behalf of the league against his mentor.

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