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Old
11-16-2012, 01:35 PM
  #26
KeslerKrony
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
Close but NJ declines.

To VAN:
Kovalchuk
Zajac

To NJ:
Schneider
Kesler
Kassian
Schroeder

Closer?

This happens only if Unlce Lou decides its time to rebuild in NJ, behind Henrique, Larsson, Schneider etc..
NJ would have an unreal core of great young players. I understand Kovy is a top 10 in the world player right now, but it's not like you guys are bending over. Too bad Parise wasn't still there otherwise it would have been another plus given the Kesler-Parise chemistry.

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Old
11-16-2012, 01:39 PM
  #27
Luck 6
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......Why?

I can certainly see why NJ doesn't want to do it. They are upgrading from Zajac to Kesler at the cost of trading a high end 1st line talent in Kovalchuk for Schneider and Kassian. When you look at it that way, it doesn't add up.

That being said, Vancouver doesn't do it either. If Zajac leaves via UFA we have no 2nd line center, that's a huge hole to fill. We also lose what is expected to be a big part of our future in Schneider and Kassian. We'd rather keep Kesler, Schneider, and Kassian and trade Luongo for a top 6 forward that isn't at the calibur of a Kovalchuk.

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Old
11-16-2012, 01:40 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GM17 View Post
This hasn't received satisfactory levels of ridicule yet

So Luongo's contract is horrible, but Kovalchuk's is awesome?
I definitely think Kovalchuk is worth more than Schneider and Kassian, but factoring in contract value and potential, it is very close. And then the difference between Kesler and Zajac make up for that difference in value, so yes, this deal is decent in terms of value for both sides.
If you want to ridicule my post, at least address my points instead of posting garbage that doesn't progress this thread at all.

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Old
11-16-2012, 01:42 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeslerKrony View Post
Kovalchuk returned Bergfors, Oduya, Cormier and a 1st for Atlanta.

Even with Bergfors hype at the time, Schneider and Kassian is a similar package (I don't mind throwing in a good pick as well if it's "close" for NJ fans)

Plus, Zajac is an impending UFA and there have been reports (albeit not confirmed) that he may not sign. His value is probably lower than it should be.
Kovalchuk was a rental during that time.

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Old
11-16-2012, 01:47 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Co Ho View Post
So Luongo's contract is horrible, but Kovalchuk's is awesome?
I definitely think Kovalchuk is worth more than Schneider and Kassian, but factoring in contract value and potential, it is very close. And then the difference between Kesler and Zajac make up for that difference in value, so yes, this deal is decent in terms of value for both sides.
If you want to ridicule my post, at least address my points instead of posting garbage that doesn't progress this thread at all.
As of right now a PPG player making 6.7mil per season is great contract value. A mistake many armchair GM's seem to make is assuming these longterm deals really hurt a players value, when in reality they don't as long as the player is living up to them.

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Old
11-16-2012, 01:48 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
As of right now a PPG player making 6.7mil per season is great contract value. A mistake many armchair GM's seem to make is assuming these longterm deals really hurt a players value, when in reality they don't as long as the player is living up to them.

I agree. But Zajac's contract ending, as well as Kesler at a discount price, have a huge impact on this deal. And obviously Kassian on an ELC and Schneider on a fair contract is great as well.

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Old
11-16-2012, 02:07 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
......Why?

I can certainly see why NJ doesn't want to do it. They are upgrading from Zajac to Kesler at the cost of trading a high end 1st line talent in Kovalchuk for Schneider and Kassian. When you look at it that way, it doesn't add up.

That being said, Vancouver doesn't do it either. If Zajac leaves via UFA we have no 2nd line center, that's a huge hole to fill. We also lose what is expected to be a big part of our future in Schneider and Kassian. We'd rather keep Kesler, Schneider, and Kassian and trade Luongo for a top 6 forward that isn't at the calibur of a Kovalchuk.
NJ's not looking for a goalie for another 2 years. so we are trading a 1st line center and iron man (zajac) and a top 5 goal scorer (kovalchuk). for a top 6 forward(kesler), a bottem 6 forward prospect that can hit (kassian) and a goalie that is not needed right now. so how is this good for nj?

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Old
11-16-2012, 02:18 PM
  #33
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Would NJ consider trading Larsson? What would they be looking for in return?

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Old
11-16-2012, 02:19 PM
  #34
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I can definitely see the reasoning behind it, but Devils aren't giving up Kovalchuk. He's way too important to us right now, had we retained Parise, I might've been up for the deal.

The value isn't that far off. Kessler is better than Zajac, and in a better contract situation. However, Devils have no reason to trade Kovalchuk and even if they would, it would have to be a massive and I mean massive overpayment for them to do so. Right now, Kovalchuk is the Devils, both now and in the future.

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Old
11-16-2012, 02:40 PM
  #35
hlaverty06
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so based on the original proposal our roster this year would look like...

Elias-Kesler-Zubrus
Butler-Henrique-Clarkson
Carter-Josefson-Kassian
Janssen-Gionta-Bernier/Barch

Salvador-Fayne
Larsson-Greene
Zidlicky-Volchenkov
Tallinder-Harrold

Brodeur (NTC just signed 2 year deal)
Hedberg (NTC just signed 2 year deal)
Schneider ??


No thank you, it leaves us with a log jam at goal and doesn't solve our log jam at D. Hedberg has little trade value but he is a great backup. Sentimentally he has more value to the Devils at backup, I don't know what we'd do with Schneider. Frazee and Wedgewood should be the goal tenders of the future for us

Kovalchuk-Zajac-Zubrus
Elias-Henrique-Clarkson
Butler-Josefson-Carter
Bernier-Gionta-Janssen/Barch

is what I'd rather have

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Old
11-16-2012, 03:21 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devils Trap View Post
Again, no arguement needed

This is not even close for NJ. If you want Kovy, I would begin listening with Edler + Schneider . Too much ??? Too bad. We aren't trading an arguably Top 5 Forward in the league for anything less. You have to massively overpay to get Kovy from NJ
I'd actually do Edler + Schneider for Kovalchuk, no problem.

I prefer that to the op as a Canucks fan. We have good long-term replacements for Edler and Schneider. While I don't like the idea of replacing Kesler with a pending UFA in Zajac.

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Old
11-16-2012, 03:25 PM
  #37
Zippy316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
I'd actually do Edler + Schneider for Kovalchuk, no problem.

I prefer that to the op as a Canucks fan. We have good long-term replacements for Edler and Schneider. While I don't like the idea of replacing Kesler with a pending UFA in Zajac.
Devils don't need Schnieder though, and it's not like they'd trade Kovalchuk, a guy who fills a much bigger need than Schnieder, for him. Edler's a nice piece, but it would leave the Devils offense very shallow.

Brodeur and Hedberg both aren't leaving until after 2013-2014, when their contracts expire. The plan was to have the youngsters develop and take over then, even if they weren't ready, the Devils will probably just sign a UFA goalie to play alongside one of them.

Acquiring Schnieder or someone like them just makes our goaltending prospects useless in a sense, it's like we are giving up on them.

Oh and whoever said Schnieder+Kassian=Kovalchuk, what are you on?

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Old
11-16-2012, 03:47 PM
  #38
JerseyGuy276
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Let's make a trade proposal with New Jersey!!

Let's demand their consensus captain whos top 5 forward in the game and their #1 center who has good chemistry with the captain.

Well, I'd start to ridicule more, but you've already shot yourself in the foot starting with those two players.

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Old
11-16-2012, 03:53 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Co Ho View Post
So Luongo's contract is horrible, but Kovalchuk's is awesome?
I definitely think Kovalchuk is worth more than Schneider and Kassian, but factoring in contract value and potential, it is very close. And then the difference between Kesler and Zajac make up for that difference in value, so yes, this deal is decent in terms of value for both sides.
If you want to ridicule my post, at least address my points instead of posting garbage that doesn't progress this thread at all.
Kovalchuk is only 29. His "retirement" years start at 36. It's likely he may decline for the last 2 years before this. However, a declining Kovalchuk is still likely to put up 50-65 points a year. It's not the end of the world to pay too much for a player of that calibre. Especially if you've already received 4-5 years of PPG play.

Goalies, on the other hand, who decline are a total dead weight to their team. You cannot have a starting goalie who is not playing at their peak. If he lets in 1 more goal a night on 30 shots, you are sunk. Luongo is 33 now and his retirement years do not start unti 39.

Another issue is that Kovalchuk is Russian. The KHL will match or exceed his NHL salary at anytime, and he is likely to go there if things go sour here. Luongo is not Russian.

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Old
11-16-2012, 03:56 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Co Ho View Post
Lol, I just was trying to see your logic for "easily declining"
But yeah, can't see either team doing this. Don't think MG trades Schneider either.
I don't know. I'm a huge fan of Kovalchuk but even bigger fan of Kassian and Kesler. The value is close. I'm not sure if I'd want to include Kassian though. I'd give up Jensen+

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Old
11-16-2012, 03:59 PM
  #41
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No thanks.

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Old
11-16-2012, 03:59 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGuy276 View Post
Let's make a trade proposal with New Jersey!!

Let's demand their consensus captain whos top 5 forward in the game and their #1 center who has good chemistry with the captain.

Well, I'd start to ridicule more, but you've already shot yourself in the foot starting with those two players.
I know it's tough. But you gotta understand how much value you are getting back as well. Not sure how much you know about Schneider, Kesler, and Kassian but they aren't anything to be scoffed at. I'm sure many teams would trade their top-line left wing and top-line center for that package. As much as I love Kovalchuk and Zajac, I would be extremely hesitant to make this deal.

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Old
11-16-2012, 04:05 PM
  #43
KeslerKrony
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hlaverty06 View Post
so based on the original proposal our roster this year would look like...

Elias-Kesler-Zubrus
Butler-Henrique-Clarkson
Carter-Josefson-Kassian
Janssen-Gionta-Bernier/Barch

Salvador-Fayne
Larsson-Greene
Zidlicky-Volchenkov
Tallinder-Harrold

Brodeur (NTC just signed 2 year deal)
Hedberg (NTC just signed 2 year deal)
Schneider ??


No thank you, it leaves us with a log jam at goal and doesn't solve our log jam at D. Hedberg has little trade value but he is a great backup. Sentimentally he has more value to the Devils at backup, I don't know what we'd do with Schneider. Frazee and Wedgewood should be the goal tenders of the future for us

Kovalchuk-Zajac-Zubrus
Elias-Henrique-Clarkson
Butler-Josefson-Carter
Bernier-Gionta-Janssen/Barch

is what I'd rather have
Thanks for the detailed points.

Maybe it's just my opinion, but I'm thinking:

1) Schneider will be better than your prospects or anyone you pick up via UFA (unless you are willing to massively overpay).

2) Your "projected" lineup after the trade doesn't factor in that you might lose Elias to retirement and that I don't feel Bobby Butler will improve past a 2nd/3rd line tweener, in which you'll have more holes in your top 6. I would go on to say that I think Kassian would make your top 6 in that scenario:

Henrique - Kesler - Butler/Elias
Clarkson - Zubrus - Kassian (would be beast)

So while you lose Kovalchuk, you get two top 6 players for a number of years to come, which also has some value.

3) NJ is asking for Edler, but look at all of your D (prospects + depth). Also Edler's value is lower given he's a UFA (and he still wants to play here) which is bad asset management for us.

I'm still willing to add a 1st or Schroeder to the OP to make it more fair. I realize the top end talent that Kovy is, but this top 6 is too beast to ignore:

Sedin - Sedin - Burrows
Kovalchuk - Zajac (if he resigns) - Booth/Higgins

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Old
11-16-2012, 04:11 PM
  #44
Yashintangibles
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeslerKrony View Post
Kovalchuk returned Bergfors, Oduya, Cormier and a 1st for Atlanta.

Even with Bergfors hype at the time, Schneider and Kassian is a similar package (I don't mind throwing in a good pick as well if it's "close" for NJ fans)

Plus, Zajac is an impending UFA and there have been reports (albeit not confirmed) that he may not sign. His value is probably lower than it should be.
Kovalchuk returned Bergfors, Oduya, Cormier and a 1st for Atlanta as a rental player.

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Old
11-16-2012, 04:13 PM
  #45
KeslerKrony
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri the Fury View Post
Kovalchuk returned Bergfors, Oduya, Cormier and a 1st for Atlanta as a rental player.
Fair Enough. Zajac would also be a "rental" player coming back.

So:
Kesler + Kassian + 1st/prospect = Kovalchuk

Schneider = unsigned Zajac

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11-16-2012, 04:18 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
I know it's tough. But you gotta understand how much value you are getting back as well. Not sure how much you know about Schneider, Kesler, and Kassian but they aren't anything to be scoffed at. I'm sure many teams would trade their top-line left wing and top-line center for that package. As much as I love Kovalchuk and Zajac, I would be extremely hesitant to make this deal.
What value are we getting back that replaces Ilya Kovalchuk? We don't need Schneider and Kesler replaces Zajac. We lose by far the best player involved and get back Ryan Kesler, a prospect, and a goalie we don't need.

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Old
11-16-2012, 04:22 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGuy276 View Post
What value are we getting back that replaces Ilya Kovalchuk? We don't need Schneider and Kesler replaces Zajac. We lose by far the best player involved and get back Ryan Kesler, a prospect, and a goalie we don't need.
Okay, fair enough. But who do you think replaces Brodeur down the road though? Wedgewood or Frazee? I'm not really sure how comfortable I would be with that if that were my team.

Agreed about the Kovalchuk and what value you get back though.

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Old
11-16-2012, 04:26 PM
  #48
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With Parise leaving and Elias getting closer to retirement, there's simply no circumstances in which New Jersey trades Kovalchuk.

At all.

Zero.

No exceptions.

Not to mention that the difference between Kesler and Zajac is not nearly as big as some seem to think.

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11-16-2012, 04:29 PM
  #49
JerseyGuy276
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Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
Okay, fair enough. But who do you think replaces Brodeur down the road though? Wedgewood or Frazee? I'm not really sure how comfortable I would be with that if that were my team.

Agreed about the Kovalchuk and what value you get back though.
The organization has made it clear that they believe Wedgewood will have the abilities to take over the #1 position after Marty retires.

I'm glad you see my main point though. I don't see Zajac as that far below Kesler in terms of on-ice contributions (contracts aside) so to me it's Kassian and Schneider for Ilya Kovalchuk. Even if for some reason we'd be open to moving Kovy, we can't because he's our only top line winger right now.

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11-16-2012, 04:36 PM
  #50
KeslerKrony
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGuy276 View Post
What value are we getting back that replaces Ilya Kovalchuk? We don't need Schneider and Kesler replaces Zajac. We lose by far the best player involved and get back Ryan Kesler, a prospect, and a goalie we don't need.
Well, the way you wrote this, it's like our players are garbage. Kesler is a legitimate 70pt #1 center (he was injured a bit this year but so was Zajac).

I also argue you do need Schneider, I don't have confidence (and neither should your GM) that Frazee & co. are going to do the job that an amazing Brodeur, even on the decline, has done. And that's going to feel weird (for fans of the Devils) to not have that franchise #1 goalie to save the day and stabilize the back end.

Kassian is better than just a prospect, he was after all, playing in the NHL and showing flashes of dominance. And if we add a 1st/prospect, how can you not say it's good value at least? Kovalchuk is the best player, but it's good value for sure.

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