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[MIA / TOR] Big Blockbuster (Reyes, Johnson, Buerhle to TOR)

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11-16-2012, 03:52 AM
  #351
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Originally Posted by Martini View Post
First off, they are the Red Sox. They have money to burn and a better farm system right now then the Jays. They made a major trade last year getting rid of Beckett who I think,imo, is washed up, and Agon, freeing up a whole bunch of money in the process. Was there ulterior motives for getting those two and Crawford out of town? Maybe. But the fact that the Red Sox can pretty much buy anybody they want and the first team if JJ has a good year that will throw a blank check at him. The Red Sox also got rid of Bobby V, who was the main reason that team turned into cold garbage, so right there, thats addition by subtraction and makes the Red Sox better on that move alone.

Well for starters, aquiring players with a history of injury isnt one of them, but thats just my opinion.

Well they might have the money but they dont have a better farm system than Jays.

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11-16-2012, 06:58 AM
  #352
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As good as this deal looks for the Jays, I would think it is worth pointing out that it all depends on which version of Reyes and Johnson shows up. If it's the 2012 Reyes (2.8 WAR) and Johnson (3.2 WAR), it really isn't much of an upgrade over Yunel Escobar and whoever else the Jays would have had in the rotation. But if the 2011 Reyes and 2010 Johnson show up, the Jays might be the favorites in the AL East. OK, maybe not the favorites, but at least a good bet for a playoff spot.

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11-16-2012, 10:23 AM
  #353
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As good as this deal looks for the Jays, I would think it is worth pointing out that it all depends on which version of Reyes and Johnson shows up. If it's the 2012 Reyes (2.8 WAR) and Johnson (3.2 WAR), it really isn't much of an upgrade over Yunel Escobar and whoever else the Jays would have had in the rotation. But if the 2011 Reyes and 2010 Johnson show up, the Jays might be the favorites in the AL East. OK, maybe not the favorites, but at least a good bet for a playoff spot.
It is a definite upgrade even if the 2012 Reyes and Johnson show up. Trust me.

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11-16-2012, 10:29 AM
  #354
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Originally Posted by Blades of Glory View Post
As good as this deal looks for the Jays, I would think it is worth pointing out that it all depends on which version of Reyes and Johnson shows up. If it's the 2012 Reyes (2.8 WAR) and Johnson (3.2 WAR), it really isn't much of an upgrade over Yunel Escobar and whoever else the Jays would have had in the rotation. But if the 2011 Reyes and 2010 Johnson show up, the Jays might be the favorites in the AL East. OK, maybe not the favorites, but at least a good bet for a playoff spot.
Reyes is better than Escobar, thats a no brainer, and Johnson despite last years so called "bad year" was better than every Jay pitcher (minus Morrow because his numbers were skewed a little because of injuries).

Without a doubt, the Jays are way better than last year, especially with everyone returning healthy.

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11-16-2012, 11:02 AM
  #355
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Originally Posted by Martini View Post
First off, they are the Red Sox. They have money to burn and a better farm system right now then the Jays. They made a major trade last year getting rid of Beckett who I think,imo, is washed up, and Agon, freeing up a whole bunch of money in the process. Was there ulterior motives for getting those two and Crawford out of town? Maybe. But the fact that the Red Sox can pretty much buy anybody they want and the first team if JJ has a good year that will throw a blank check at him. The Red Sox also got rid of Bobby V, who was the main reason that team turned into cold garbage, so right there, thats addition by subtraction and makes the Red Sox better on that move alone.

Well for starters, aquiring players with a history of injury isnt one of them, but thats just my opinion.
Rogers has more money, and according to every expert - the Jays have the better, and deeper farm system.

Buying anybody you want doesn't always translate into wins, look no further then those Red Sox.

If JJ has a good year and re-establishes himself as a legit ace, rest assured, AA makes a very lucrative offer.....

The manager is a cop-out. Managers may account for 5-10 more wins/losses.. Generously, lets say 10 more wins for arguments sake - that puts them at 79-83, still not even a .500 team.


I'm not sure who you're trying to fool, but selling off bs as fact, isn't going to win you many debates.

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11-16-2012, 11:13 AM
  #356
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Originally Posted by Blades of Glory View Post
As good as this deal looks for the Jays, I would think it is worth pointing out that it all depends on which version of Reyes and Johnson shows up. If it's the 2012 Reyes (2.8 WAR) and Johnson (3.2 WAR), it really isn't much of an upgrade over Yunel Escobar and whoever else the Jays would have had in the rotation. But if the 2011 Reyes and 2010 Johnson show up, the Jays might be the favorites in the AL East. OK, maybe not the favorites, but at least a good bet for a playoff spot.
Johnson at his worst is still better then half the guys we had starting games last year, and Jose Reyes is 100x better player then Escobar. He has below average range for a SS, horrible speed/baserunner, and makes countless dumb mistakes. On top of that, Reyes is 1 year removed from a batting title while Escobar hasn't topped .300 since his rookie season where he hit .326 in 319 at bats.

Reyes is better in almost every regard. I give Escobar's arm the edge, he does have a rocket.

Escobar is a serviceable major leaguer, but nowhere close to the same league as Reyes.

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11-16-2012, 11:31 AM
  #357
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Jose Reyes’ holiday in Dubai one reason for holdup as Bud Selig reviews deal

http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseba...ockbuster-deal

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Fox reporter Ken Rosenberg tweeted that one holdup to the deal was that Reyes was in Dubai and still had to fly back to Florida for a physical. Reyes wasn’t scheduled back until Thursday night.

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11-16-2012, 11:46 AM
  #358
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I think you need to lay off the martini's, Martini.

The Jays got an all star shortstop whose 2 years removed from a batting title for a decent defensive SS prospect, and an underperforming primma donna problem child SS without much range, and who makes countless bonehead mistakes
They also get a player who has a history of injury who makes a ton of money whose career year was in his contract year while the Marlins not only get rid of that contract, they get to be just as bad while not spending a ton of money. In reality, it doesnt matter who got the better player, it matters that the Marlins were a last place team last year with a huge payroll and now they can be a last place team while having a payroll under 20 million.
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.... TWO top end of the rotation starters for Alvarez, a 4-5 guy,
Who are these two top end of the rotation guys?.....wait, you mean Burh and JJ? JJ is injury prone and hasnt lived up to his one great season and the jury is still out if he will ever match that level again. Lost velocity on his pitches have made him mediocre and a solid number three guy. You are not going anywhere if JJ is the ace of your staff. Burh is what he is, and saying he is a quality number four in a rotation isnt out of the question and takes Alverez spot nicely with the exception that now the Jays are the ones paying him. Now, stat bois and post up this or that about some sort of statistic here or there but the bottom line is Burh will be out there every fifth day trying to win. The Jays rotation as of now is filled with middle of the rotation types and nobody who is head and shoulders better then the field. It makes the Jays better, but they wernt that good in the first place so its better by default if you look at things objectively.
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and Nicolino who projects as a 3-4.
Really? Nicolino has been compared to Glavine and statsticly is the most impressive pitching prospect that was in the Jays farm system with an ungoldly walks per nine average and is further along and could help the Marlins as soon as next year.
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A solid OF prospect who is still very raw,
And one of the best prospects in baseball.........
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and another pitching prospect with limited upside
Anthony DeSclafani? He was a steal in the sixth round and projects to be en excellent middle/ spot starter type. Where is this limited upside when if he wasnt added into the trade he would have been a borderline top ten prospect after the gutting?

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for a switch hitting utility man with speed, something the team needed badly. On top of that, they swaped a catcher who can't hit at all, for a catcher who can hit a little bit and has a bit of pop.
fluff

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The Jays win this trade by a landslide.
No they dont. They took a huge amount of money from a team that was looking to get rid of it. They helped the Marlins by taking on questionable contracts and injury prone players while the Marlins pretty much picked and choosed whom they wanted from the Jays minor league system, recieved cheap players who will help out in the majors while the kids they got develop, all this while providing a dwindling fan base a last place team with the exception now being next years last place team will be cheaper, expected to be a last place team, and could suprise and make as run for mediocre in what would be considered nothing but a positive instead of last year which was a huge dissapointment.

The Jays? They took an a bunch of money in players who have a history of injury and an older pitcher who will go out there every fifth day but is a shell of what he once was. They over spent in giving up so much talent to a team that was looking to just get rid of salary, over looking the type of players they aquired and instead just looking at the names. The Jays are better now, but that isnt saying much considering the only team worse then them in their division pretty much gave up on their manager and even then, only beat the Red Sox by four games. A team, such as the Jays, who were hobbled by injury almost all of last year, imo, of course, shouldnt be picking up players who have a history of injury while using a deep farm system to get them when a couple of those players traded could have helped them sooner then later.
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If Reyes is injury riddled and Johnson walks as a FA, then it becomes close...
The money the Marlins dont have to spend throws the advantage into their favor.
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But if JJ performs, he'll get paid here..
But does he want to stay there?
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Just like Bautista did, just like Halladay did.
Halliday is gone and is getting paid by the Phillies.
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Although in the field the turf may be a concern for Reyes, at the plate it will likely benefit a guy with his speed for extra base hits.
It will also help speed up the deterioration of his joints. And with that horrible contract, isnt one of the best things for a player who is injured as often as Reyes.

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No logical person sees this as anything other then a huge win for the Jays at this time. Sure, theres risks involved, just like every other trade.. But if all the players coming to Toronto perform around career average, its not even close...

You're either a hater, or just delusional.
I am not a fan of either team, but think theres more to this trade then just the players involved. Loria wanted to get rid of money and found a sucker in AA. Thats the main reason for this fire sale and the Marlins got a boat load of talent in exchange for the Jays taking all of those contracts. Thats logical thinking without even trying to comprehend the talent exchanged. This was a money move for the Marlins who also got a ton of talent, while the Jays took on the money, and the questionable health thats tied into that money, and a one year, injury prone pitcher who has yet to live up to his one great year amidst injury.

Just looking at it from both sides instead of one.

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11-16-2012, 11:49 AM
  #359
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And one of the best prospects in baseball......
He's the 46th best prospect in baseball according to Scouting Book, I'm not sure at what number you become one of the best, but I'd have it below 46.

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11-16-2012, 12:11 PM
  #360
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Just looking at it from both sides instead of one.
Yeah, no you weren't.

The Jays are winners in this, no questions. They get a SS, who at his worst, is still a top-10 shortstop in the league. They get a pitcher who signed long-term, and is a solid middle-of-the rotation workhorse. And they get an ace, who despite having injury problems, still a top-shelf pitcher. They only get one guaranteed year of Johnson, but they also get a head start in negotiations for an extension. If Johnson gets off to a great start, he would be very wise to re-sign ASAP considering his injury problems.

They may be overpaid, but who cares? They can still perform well, and that's the most important thing. It's also not my money, and the Blue Jays were going to have a tough time attracting any free agents to play in Toronto. Mind as well get those guys in trades

All the meanwhile, the Marlins get a bunch of prospects. All I can say about that is that the majority of prospects, even the good ones, don't pan out. As far as I could tell, none of the prospects the Blue Jays gave up were can't-miss guys.

The Jays got so much better in this trade

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11-16-2012, 12:23 PM
  #361
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The money the Marlins dont have to spend throws the advantage into their favor.
You clearly view Reyes as a toxic contract, so just how negatively would you view it:

Is it bottom 10, 20, 30 in the league?

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11-16-2012, 12:28 PM
  #362
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Originally Posted by Martini View Post
I am not a fan of either team, but think theres more to this trade then just the players involved. Loria wanted to get rid of money and found a sucker in AA. Thats the main reason for this fire sale and the Marlins got a boat load of talent in exchange for the Jays taking all of those contracts. Thats logical thinking without even trying to comprehend the talent exchanged. This was a money move for the Marlins who also got a ton of talent, while the Jays took on the money, and the questionable health thats tied into that money, and a one year, injury prone pitcher who has yet to live up to his one great year amidst injury.

Just looking at it from both sides instead of one.
You might say you are not a fan of either team and are looking at the trade from both sides, however in my opinion you keep saying how the Marlins are much better and the Blue Jays aquired players that are always injured or are to old. If you looked at the trade from both sides as you said, why not mention the positves for the Blue Jays and not all these negatives.

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11-16-2012, 12:50 PM
  #363
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They also get a player who has a history of injury who makes a ton of money whose career year was in his contract year while the Marlins not only get rid of that contract, they get to be just as bad while not spending a ton of money. In reality, it doesnt matter who got the better player, it matters that the Marlins were a last place team last year with a huge payroll and now they can be a last place team while having a payroll under 20 million.

Who are these two top end of the rotation guys?.....wait, you mean Burh and JJ? JJ is injury prone and hasnt lived up to his one great season and the jury is still out if he will ever match that level again. Lost velocity on his pitches have made him mediocre and a solid number three guy. You are not going anywhere if JJ is the ace of your staff. Burh is what he is, and saying he is a quality number four in a rotation isnt out of the question and takes Alverez spot nicely with the exception that now the Jays are the ones paying him. Now, stat bois and post up this or that about some sort of statistic here or there but the bottom line is Burh will be out there every fifth day trying to win. The Jays rotation as of now is filled with middle of the rotation types and nobody who is head and shoulders better then the field. It makes the Jays better, but they wernt that good in the first place so its better by default if you look at things objectively.

Really? Nicolino has been compared to Glavine and statsticly is the most impressive pitching prospect that was in the Jays farm system with an ungoldly walks per nine average and is further along and could help the Marlins as soon as next year.

And one of the best prospects in baseball.........
Anthony DeSclafani? He was a steal in the sixth round and projects to be en excellent middle/ spot starter type. Where is this limited upside when if he wasnt added into the trade he would have been a borderline top ten prospect after the gutting?


fluff


No they dont. They took a huge amount of money from a team that was looking to get rid of it. They helped the Marlins by taking on questionable contracts and injury prone players while the Marlins pretty much picked and choosed whom they wanted from the Jays minor league system, recieved cheap players who will help out in the majors while the kids they got develop, all this while providing a dwindling fan base a last place team with the exception now being next years last place team will be cheaper, expected to be a last place team, and could suprise and make as run for mediocre in what would be considered nothing but a positive instead of last year which was a huge dissapointment.

The Jays? They took an a bunch of money in players who have a history of injury and an older pitcher who will go out there every fifth day but is a shell of what he once was. They over spent in giving up so much talent to a team that was looking to just get rid of salary, over looking the type of players they aquired and instead just looking at the names. The Jays are better now, but that isnt saying much considering the only team worse then them in their division pretty much gave up on their manager and even then, only beat the Red Sox by four games. A team, such as the Jays, who were hobbled by injury almost all of last year, imo, of course, shouldnt be picking up players who have a history of injury while using a deep farm system to get them when a couple of those players traded could have helped them sooner then later.

The money the Marlins dont have to spend throws the advantage into their favor.

But does he want to stay there?

Halliday is gone and is getting paid by the Phillies.

It will also help speed up the deterioration of his joints. And with that horrible contract, isnt one of the best things for a player who is injured as often as Reyes.


I am not a fan of either team, but think theres more to this trade then just the players involved. Loria wanted to get rid of money and found a sucker in AA. Thats the main reason for this fire sale and the Marlins got a boat load of talent in exchange for the Jays taking all of those contracts. Thats logical thinking without even trying to comprehend the talent exchanged. This was a money move for the Marlins who also got a ton of talent, while the Jays took on the money, and the questionable health thats tied into that money, and a one year, injury prone pitcher who has yet to live up to his one great year amidst injury.

Just looking at it from both sides instead of one.
So much fail in this post.. I'm not sure where you get your information from, but most of it is wrong.

Nicolino was in A ball this year, but he's going to help the Marlins next year?

DeSclafani doesn't have big upside. Marisnick does, but hes a long way away from it and far from a guarentee to ever even sniff the major leagues.

Established major league talent >>>>>>> prospects

Why are you so concerned with money? Especially when the Blue Jays multi billion dollar ownership group isn't?

Halladay is getting paid by the Phillies now, but he re-signed multiple times throughout his prime while being widely regarded as the best pitcher in the game.

I don't know what JJ is thinking, but I do know players want to win. If he feels like he has a chance to win in Toronto, and is given a good finacial offer, why wouldn't he stay?

Toronto was a destination in the late 80's and early 90's due to the success and talent on the team. AA is trying to bring the culture back by parlaying prospects into established ML talent who likely wouldn't have signed here as free agents.

Every expert I've read or listened too, think the Jays did amazing. The Marlins took all the chances in betting that all the youth they acquired will pan out; that rarely happens. The Jays know what they got, and they like it. In one deal, AA addressed all the major needs of the organization.


Sure, if every kid reaches his max potential then the Marlins look good in this deal. But realistically, that won't happen. None of the youth projects as all star type players and the Jays kept all their best prospects and all their high ceiling guys. Marisnick possibly being an exception if absolutely everything goes right for him.


If you told any Jays fan we made this deal a month ago without giving up Gose, d'Arnaud, Sanchez or Syndergaard, and they likely don't believe it.

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11-16-2012, 01:11 PM
  #364
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Espn deportes and TSN reporting Jays sign Melky Caberra to 2 yr deal

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11-16-2012, 01:45 PM
  #365
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So much fail in this post.. I'm not sure where you get your information from, but most of it is wrong.
The main thing in this trade is that the Marlins are freed from the money owed. There isnt any fail in that fact and the obvious catalyst for this trade. It accomplishes what they wanted to do considering that after spending all that money they were still a last place team. The Jays, were a last place team last year with the exception that they were in a division with a Red Sox team that gave up on their manager and still, on paper, were a much, much better team then the Jays. This is all fact. Did this trade make the Jays better? Sure it did, but the Jays wernt that good in the first place before it and now have a bunch of question marks, MLB quality question marks but still question marks none the less. This, coming from a team decimated by injury last year, trading for more injury plagued players is, imo, of course, a head scratching trade. Thats my opinion, but I think that trying to rely on players who have a history of being unreliable isnt a good idea for a team that had to make some sort of significant move to keep up with the other teams in the division who have all moved forward instead of hold steady and wait for prospects to develop.

The main thing in this trade, is the Marlins wanted out of those contracts. They accomplished that. The talent aquired is irrelevant to that case.Right there, the Marlins win. The Jays needed to make this type of move in a very competitive division to stay relevent. They accomplished that, also. To say the Jays made out like bandits is preposterous when the Marlins not only got rid of all that money, but also got a treasure trove of talent to go along with getting rid of all that backloaded contract which will come back and bite them in the future once Burh and Reyes start to break down. This makes the Jays better now and hurried up their window of actually trying to be something in the east other then a doorstop and on that, i congrats AA for pulling this move off. But, as an honest observer, think it might be a mistake considering who they actually picked up. with the exception of a proven winner like Burh who will go out there every fifth day and keep the Jays in the game.
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Nicolino was in A ball this year, but he's going to help the Marlins next year?
Um, why not? Its not like the Marlins are deep at any position at any level and have a bevy of starters who will help them from being a last place team.
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DeSclafani doesn't have big upside. Marisnick does, but hes a long way away from it and far from a guarentee to ever even sniff the major leagues.
Thats projection considering nobody knows what will happen.
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Established major league talent >>>>>>> prospects
Injury prone MLB talent=prospects
Cheap prospects trump over paid MLB talent on a team with a budget, also.
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Why are you so concerned with money? Especially when the Blue Jays multi billion dollar ownership group isn't?
Because if you look at it from the Marlins standpoint, its the main reason this trade was actually made. Its great that the Jays went out opened the purse strings to get some talent, questionable talent, but still talent. The Marlins did what they always do, trading MLB talent while their value is high, so for a casual observer, this isnt anything new to me to see. I question if those players are actually worth those contracts, Reyes especially. Burh is what he is, but we shall see what happens.
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Halladay is getting paid by the Phillies now, but he re-signed multiple times throughout his prime while being widely regarded as the best pitcher in the game.
Um, ok?
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I don't know what JJ is thinking, but I do know players want to win. If he feels like he has a chance to win in Toronto, and is given a good finacial offer, why wouldn't he stay?
IMO, being in a division with proven winners such as the Yankees, Rays, and Red Sox, hurts a team like the Jays, but thats just me. Banking on a team to implode, which is what the Red Sox did last year, to move up in the standings in a stacked division isnt a feasable route to actually staying somewhere and hoping for the best when all JJ has to do is sign with the Yankees and know for a fact he has a much, much better chance at actually winning and playing in the post season. That isnt a knock on the Jays, its just a realistic view that there are better alternatives that hoping for career years from players and trying to beat franchises who know what it takes to win and will do whatever it takes so that they do.
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Toronto was a destination in the late 80's and early 90's due to the success and talent on the team. AA is trying to bring the culture back by parlaying prospects into established ML talent who likely wouldn't have signed here as free agents.
Times have changed. A team like the Jays should be more concerned with developing players thru their system instead of making huge splashes that might back fire on them in the future, but again, thats my opinion. Toronto is a big market, but I dont think the average player wants to play there when there are more lucrative places to play such as New York, Chicago, and the west coast. This isnt a knock, but good luck Burh plays a whole year in toronto when his roots are entrenched in the mid west. This is all speculation and hopefully things pan out for the Jays, I just dont see it happening.
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Every expert I've read or listened too, think the Jays did amazing. The Marlins took all the chances in betting that all the youth they acquired will pan out; that rarely happens. The Jays know what they got, and they like it. In one deal, AA addressed all the major needs of the organization.
The Jays got a bunch of high priced players, nothing more. They helped out Loria so he can do this yet again in three more years, took over the contractual obligations while handing over a huge amount of talent in the process. The Marlins, by that same token, did amazing too considering they reduced their payroll to almost nothing while getting a huge amount of young talent from one of the richest farm systems in baseball, while jettisoning conracts which were considered questionable when they handed them out in the first place.

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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
Sure, if every kid reaches his max potential then the Marlins look good in this deal. But realistically, that won't happen. None of the youth projects as all star type players and the Jays kept all their best prospects and all their high ceiling guys. Marisnick possibly being an exception if absolutely everything goes right for him.
And that is the great thing about this trade. If those often injured players get injured again, the Jays look silly for actually agreeing to it. This trade is fascinating in that reguard considering all of the circumstances surrounding it. Will JJ leave after the year? Will Burh get home sick, you cant ask for more then this.

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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
If you told any Jays fan we made this deal a month ago without giving up Gose, d'Arnaud, Sanchez or Syndergaard, and they likely don't believe it.
Gose isnt even ranked in the Jays top ten on BBA, D'Arnud is fragile like glass, and imo, Nicolino is a better prospect then Sanchez and Syndergaard. It reamins to be seen what actually happens with the prospects when all is said and done.

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11-16-2012, 02:13 PM
  #366
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Long post
There is just so much wrong in this post.

It's great that the Marlins were able to move all that money, but that money was tied up to good players, who were performing. These were not deadweight players. Instead of deciding to build around those players further, they blew it up, to no surprise to me.

The Marlins may have saved a bunch of money, but they have also alienated their fanbase permanently. And what's the goal here, to make profits or to win? These moves do nothing to help the team win, and it likely damages the future prospect of that ever happening again as long as Loria is still the owner. Loria will still make his fistful of cash, but at what cost?

The players the Blue Jays are acquiring may be overpaid, but they are still good to great players. You can't seem to grasp this concept. They will actually help the team win a lot more games than they did last season. I can't possibly see what weird perspective you're looking at this through.

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11-16-2012, 02:25 PM
  #367
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The main thing in this trade is that the Marlins are freed from the money owed. There isnt any fail in that fact and the obvious catalyst for this trade. It accomplishes what they wanted to do considering that after spending all that money they were still a last place team. The Jays, were a last place team last year with the exception that they were in a division with a Red Sox team that gave up on their manager and still, on paper, were a much, much better team then the Jays. This is all fact. Did this trade make the Jays better? Sure it did, but the Jays wernt that good in the first place before it and now have a bunch of question marks, MLB quality question marks but still question marks none the less. This, coming from a team decimated by injury last year, trading for more injury plagued players is, imo, of course, a head scratching trade. Thats my opinion, but I think that trying to rely on players who have a history of being unreliable isnt a good idea for a team that had to make some sort of significant move to keep up with the other teams in the division who have all moved forward instead of hold steady and wait for prospects to develop.

The main thing in this trade, is the Marlins wanted out of those contracts. They accomplished that. The talent aquired is irrelevant to that case.Right there, the Marlins win. The Jays needed to make this type of move in a very competitive division to stay relevent. They accomplished that, also. To say the Jays made out like bandits is preposterous when the Marlins not only got rid of all that money, but also got a treasure trove of talent to go along with getting rid of all that backloaded contract which will come back and bite them in the future once Burh and Reyes start to break down. This makes the Jays better now and hurried up their window of actually trying to be something in the east other then a doorstop and on that, i congrats AA for pulling this move off. But, as an honest observer, think it might be a mistake considering who they actually picked up. with the exception of a proven winner like Burh who will go out there every fifth day and keep the Jays in the game.

Um, why not? Its not like the Marlins are deep at any position at any level and have a bevy of starters who will help them from being a last place team.

Thats projection considering nobody knows what will happen.

Injury prone MLB talent=prospects
Cheap prospects trump over paid MLB talent on a team with a budget, also.

Because if you look at it from the Marlins standpoint, its the main reason this trade was actually made. Its great that the Jays went out opened the purse strings to get some talent, questionable talent, but still talent. The Marlins did what they always do, trading MLB talent while their value is high, so for a casual observer, this isnt anything new to me to see. I question if those players are actually worth those contracts, Reyes especially. Burh is what he is, but we shall see what happens.

Um, ok?

IMO, being in a division with proven winners such as the Yankees, Rays, and Red Sox, hurts a team like the Jays, but thats just me. Banking on a team to implode, which is what the Red Sox did last year, to move up in the standings in a stacked division isnt a feasable route to actually staying somewhere and hoping for the best when all JJ has to do is sign with the Yankees and know for a fact he has a much, much better chance at actually winning and playing in the post season. That isnt a knock on the Jays, its just a realistic view that there are better alternatives that hoping for career years from players and trying to beat franchises who know what it takes to win and will do whatever it takes so that they do.

Times have changed. A team like the Jays should be more concerned with developing players thru their system instead of making huge splashes that might back fire on them in the future, but again, thats my opinion. Toronto is a big market, but I dont think the average player wants to play there when there are more lucrative places to play such as New York, Chicago, and the west coast. This isnt a knock, but good luck Burh plays a whole year in toronto when his roots are entrenched in the mid west. This is all speculation and hopefully things pan out for the Jays, I just dont see it happening.

The Jays got a bunch of high priced players, nothing more. They helped out Loria so he can do this yet again in three more years, took over the contractual obligations while handing over a huge amount of talent in the process. The Marlins, by that same token, did amazing too considering they reduced their payroll to almost nothing while getting a huge amount of young talent from one of the richest farm systems in baseball, while jettisoning conracts which were considered questionable when they handed them out in the first place.


And that is the great thing about this trade. If those often injured players get injured again, the Jays look silly for actually agreeing to it. This trade is fascinating in that reguard considering all of the circumstances surrounding it. Will JJ leave after the year? Will Burh get home sick, you cant ask for more then this.


Gose isnt even ranked in the Jays top ten on BBA, D'Arnud is fragile like glass, and imo, Nicolino is a better prospect then Sanchez and Syndergaard. It reamins to be seen what actually happens with the prospects when all is said and done.
I guess it doesn't matter to you that you have no idea what you're talking about, does it? You're going to continue to spew hot air, because thats what you want to believe.

In your opinion? Nicolino is the more polished, both Syndergaard and Sanchez have higher ceilings. Anyone with a clue about the Jays farm system will tell you that.

You say nobody knows what will happen, them proceed to tell me what will happen? These contracts will come back to bite the Jays, apparently? Wouldn't that fall in line with 'nobody knows what will happen'?

Buehrle will get homesick being away from the mid-west? Then why did he sign in Miami?

Treasure trove of talent?

Talent is irrelevant? In a trade? Are you kidding me? What wins games, talent or owners bank account balance?

How often do teams win based on how much money the owner saved?

Prospects are prospects for a reason. They're a possibility. Reyes already is an allstar shortstop who is 1 year removed from a batting title and a guy who can steal 40 bases. Buehrle already is a top end starter, not an ace, but top end. Johnson already is a top end starter, not a prospect.


IF, every prospect pans out to their full potential, it can certainly be debated... But right now, the Jays win hands down. No question, its not even close.

From a business perspective, the Marlins did exactly what they wanted to do, yes... But guess what? Rogers is a multi-billion dollar company that was prepared to open their cheque book and spend some money to compete in the east, and they did that.


If the Jays look at this from a baseball perspective, and the Marlins look at it from a business standpoint, they both win.


You claiming to be objective is contradicted by the countless negative comments you've made regarding this deal from the Jays perspective. Theres certainly risks involved, as there is with every trade.... But why are all the experts, and those who get paid to report on this, praising the Jays and AA? Why is there a complete uproar in south Florida if the Marlins won this deal? Why are the fans of the team so disgusted, yet you claim its such a great deal?

The Marlins had to dump salary. Fortunately for the Jays, that salary also included premier major league talent in the form of two top end starters and one of the best short stops in the game who also happens to be a switch hitting base stealer who won a batting title the year before last. They also threw in a versitle switch hitting utility man who happens to be one of the fastest players in the game.. To top it off, they swapped their backup catcher who can't hit at all, for one who can hit a little.


If the Jays gave up a can't miss prospect, or even a prospect who projected as anything more then a avarage major leaguer then I would bet some Jays fans wouldn't be so willing to call it a fleece.... But they didn't. The only angle the Marlins won from was the financial angle. Thats fine, the multi-billion dollar ownership group was clearly very open to taking on salary to put a better product on the field.


Money in the owners pocket doesn't win baseball games, money on the field does.

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11-16-2012, 02:47 PM
  #368
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According to this article from TSN last year Bud Selig didn't need to review the trades of Houston and Oakland when they basically made the same type of trade as Miami when they gave up a lot of their main roster players for prospects and etc, so there is no reason why he won't approve this trade.

http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=409607

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Look at Houston. The Astros did virtually the same thing this season, as new GM Jeff Luhnow pulled off 11 trades over the course of the season and stripped the team of virtually all its veteran talent. He moved their top starter Wandy Rodriguez, his closer Brett Myers, Carlos Lee, third baseman Chris Johnson and two pretty good pitchers in J.A. Happ and Brandon Lyon to the Blue Jays in that huge 10-player trade in July. Luhnow's saving grace is he broke the team up piece-by-piece, not in one huge deal. The Astros believe four of the prospects they got from the Jays are now part of their top 20 prospects.

Oakland stripped down their team to a large degree last winter, by trading starters Gio Gonzalez and Trevor Cahill and closer Andrew Bailey. However with some shrewd moves by Executive of the Year Billy Beane, the A's shocked the baseball world and actually soared down the stretch to beat out Texas for the AL West title.

If the commisioner didn't do anything to stop what Houston and Oakland did, he can hardly step in to shut down Miami now.

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11-16-2012, 03:05 PM
  #369
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No need to further feed the troll sparxx.

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11-16-2012, 03:13 PM
  #370
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Complete and wilful destruction of a troll's ignorance of the facts.

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11-16-2012, 03:18 PM
  #371
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Finally this deal gets explained the right way:




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11-16-2012, 04:01 PM
  #372
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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
I guess it doesn't matter to you that you have no idea what you're talking about, does it? You're going to continue to spew hot air, because thats what you want to believe.
What dont I know about? The Marlins wanted to get out of those contracts, AA bit and took them.
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In your opinion? Nicolino is the more polished, both Syndergaard and Sanchez have higher ceilings. Anyone with a clue about the Jays farm system will tell you that.
Thats speculative at best. Looking at their statistics suggests that Nicolino is the better prospect with an ungodly walk per nine inning ratio then the two other pitchers, is left handed, and has been compared to Tom Glavine. Now, I might know a little about baseball, but Tom Glavine was a pretty good pitcher. Can the other two be better? Who knows, but I would take a pitcher compared to Tom Glavine over prospective power pitchers any day of the week.
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You say nobody knows what will happen, them proceed to tell me what will happen? These contracts will come back to bite the Jays, apparently? Wouldn't that fall in line with 'nobody knows what will happen'?
Considering the past's of those said players? Reyes is injury prone, and Burh has over a decade of 200+ innings on his arm. Indeed, nobody knows what will happen, but banking on young, cheap players while in last place is a much better then banking on players who have a history of injury or have been in the fore front to the point that health should be a concern as in Burh while in last place.
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Buehrle will get homesick being away from the mid-west? Then why did he sign in Miami?
He wasnt far from his mid west home while in Florida.
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Treasure trove of talent?
Three of the top ten prospects in the Jays farm system isnt a treasue trove of talent considering just how great the Jays farm system was?
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Talent is irrelevant? In a trade? Are you kidding me? What wins games, talent or owners bank account balance?
Lorias bottom line was the most important reason for this trade. Nothing more. Nothing less. He accomplished what he needed to do with nothing of what little fanbase he has left to judge him. It obviously doesnt bother him, but making this trade was something he had to do.
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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
How often do teams win based on how much money the owner saved?
I dont think even Loria wants to win anymore and instead just wants to piss off as many people as he can.
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Prospects are prospects for a reason. They're a possibility. Reyes already is an allstar shortstop who is 1 year removed from a batting title and a guy who can steal 40 bases. Buehrle already is a top end starter, not an ace, but top end. Johnson already is a top end starter, not a prospect.
And all are question marks. Reyes has never played 162 games in a year, JJ is as injured as they come, and Burh has some miles on his arm. I have stated that this trade is excellent for the Jays, it makes a mediocre team better if everything works out. The problem is that with all the question marks about the players aquired makes it more interesting to watch it play out then it does actually penciling in a mediocre team as one of the front runners of a division that includes the Yankees, Red Sox, and Rays, and an up an coming team in the O's who won 90 games last year. Throw in Melky, who has a couple issues and I honestly dont see the logic in taking gambles on the type of talent aquired instead of going out and getting more reliable talent with that farm system the Jays have.

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IF, every prospect pans out to their full potential, it can certainly be debated... But right now, the Jays win hands down. No question, its not even close.
On paper? Even then you look at the past histories of those players with the exception of Burh who is as reliable as they get and you still have to question if this was the right move for a team that has had issues with injury already. Can things change? Who knows, but relying on the hope that players who are often injured to actually stay healthy on a team that has a past of being a medical ward isnt somehting I would want for any team.
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From a business perspective, the Marlins did exactly what they wanted to do, yes... But guess what? Rogers is a multi-billion dollar company that was prepared to open their cheque book and spend some money to compete in the east, and they did that.
Which means that they are finally learning what it takes to compete in the east, good for them. Will it stop the other teams in the east from spending, obviously not. The Jays did good, but still have to compete with the Yankees and Red Sox who will spend as much as they want without fear of what the Jays have done. This move, as big as it was for a team like the Jays, still isnt even a blip on the radar of the proven teams of the east. Will it help? Sure, but until the Jays prove themselves that they are committed to actually putting a great team on the field with there remain skeptical thought as to the moves that they make, one of whom being me. Its a long road, the Yankees are that much better, the Red Sox fired the biggest reason they stunk last year, and the Rays keep churning out a great team year after year while the O's who also have unlimited amounts of money to spend, were that much better then a team four games out of the cellar in the east.

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If the Jays look at this from a baseball perspective, and the Marlins look at it from a business standpoint, they both win.
Agreed.

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You claiming to be objective is contradicted by the countless negative comments you've made regarding this deal from the Jays perspective. Theres certainly risks involved, as there is with every trade.... But why are all the experts, and those who get paid to report on this, praising the Jays and AA? Why is there a complete uproar in south Florida if the Marlins won this deal? Why are the fans of the team so disgusted, yet you claim its such a great deal?
Because its a trade not about the fans in Florida, its about Loria pulling the same crap he always does while he failed in his attempt to attract fans to his new stadium and to get back at those same fans who wouldnt pay money to come to his new stadium he got rid of those same players he gave huge, questionable contracts to like some sort of punishment when reality says nobody even cared the slightest. Loria has a huge target on his back, and rightly so, but to be a last place team with low payroll trumps out a last place team with a huge one. Experts? Who cares, they get paid to write controversial crappage that means very little to anybody else with an opinion other then somebody actually pays them to write it. As for the fans of the Marlins, they have been thru this how many times before, if this one disgusts them other then the countless other ones they need to switch teams considering this is what the Marlins do and will continue to do with such a bi-polar owner.
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The Marlins had to dump salary. Fortunately for the Jays, that salary also included premier major league talent in the form of two top end starters and one of the best short stops in the game who also happens to be a switch hitting base stealer who won a batting title the year before last. They also threw in a versitle switch hitting utility man who happens to be one of the fastest players in the game.. To top it off, they swapped their backup catcher who can't hit at all, for one who can hit a little.
While the Marlins pretty much moved their payroll down to almost nothing while getting premuim prospects to go along with finalcial stability now and in the future while they rebuild their team yet again without those same contracts looming down on their bottom line. With a brand new stadium and a brainless owner who shoots himself in the foot only because he obviously can. Now, is there ulterior motives for this move? Who knows, but the fact remains the Marlins do this every so often and this time it was the Jays who bit down. and wether it was right or wrong remains to be seen.

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If the Jays gave up a can't miss prospect, or even a prospect who projected as anything more then a avarage major leaguer then I would bet some Jays fans wouldn't be so willing to call it a fleece.... But they didn't. The only angle the Marlins won from was the financial angle. Thats fine, the multi-billion dollar ownership group was clearly very open to taking on salary to put a better product on the field.
The Jays gave up three of their top ten prospects on BBA's list of top tens. I will take their opinion on the prospects traded, over any blog writer or fan site considering that is what they do and are good at it.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today...2/2614316.html

This is a great mark up on the trade and I will listen to their just made podcast that is all about this trade later. The Jays gave up quality, nothing is gonna change that fact while taking on all those contracts with some injury concern.

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Money in the owners pocket doesn't win baseball games, money on the field does.
Money on the field of a last place team is just spending money for the sake of spending.

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11-16-2012, 04:04 PM
  #373
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So this is what happens when you try talk to someone who knows absolutely nothing about the game.

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11-16-2012, 04:24 PM
  #374
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I look forward to Martini telling all of us misinformed cretans why Felix Hernandez did not deserve the 2010 AL Cy Young Award again. Or how the Marlins won a baseball trade because of financial considerations, with no concern for their major league roster.

Both comments were pretty hilarious.

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11-16-2012, 04:27 PM
  #375
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Three of the top ten prospects in the Jays farm system isnt a treasue trove of talent considering just how great the Jays farm system was?
Given that none of Gose, Syndergaard, Sanchez, or especially D'Arnaud were included in the deal (miraculously), no that isn't a treasure trove of talent. It's solid, certainly, but not a king's ransom of quality. A light-hitting, defensively skilled short-stop with long-term offensive concerns, a projected mid-rotation arm, a potential high strikeout reliever, and a young arm with major league experience who badly needs to improve his strikeout rate and add a third pitch to have long-term success in the rotation.

The Marlins got a few reasonably high-upside guys in return, but they certainly did not manage to get the creme de la creme of the Blue Jays minor league system, that much is certain. Every Jays fan I know is doing cartwheels over not having to include any of the above four guys for a reason.

They have the highest major league upside. Nicolino was compared to Glavine in terms of style (a lefty who relies on deception and control rather than power) and pedigree, not upside. Unless you happen to think the Jays gave up a future 300 game winner, multiple Cy Young Award winner, and first ballot Hall of Famer (the very same Baseball America you cite so consistently views him as a third or fourth starter), it's a disingenuous comparison and intellectually dishonest to make that connection.

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