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Old
11-16-2012, 04:36 PM
  #51
Reverend Mayhem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGuy276 View Post
The organization has made it clear that they believe Wedgewood will have the abilities to take over the #1 position after Marty retires.

I'm glad you see my main point though. I don't see Zajac as that far below Kesler in terms of on-ice contributions (contracts aside) so to me it's Kassian and Schneider for Ilya Kovalchuk. Even if for some reason we'd be open to moving Kovy, we can't because he's our only top line winger right now.
Though he very rarely misses a game, I'd say Kesler is superior to Zajac if he wasn't so injury-prone. When healthy, I see Kesler as the better player fairly clearly, though I still think highly of Zajac. Zajac is also a UFA, though I doubt he would not re-sign in Jersey. I still see the Kovalchuk point and it's blindingly obvious he's untouchable at this point and I don't blame you guys for that.

re: Wedgewood. My organization once said they had a lot of confidence in Dan Cloutier's abilities. Still waiting to see the logic in that. But, it might be very hard to not trust your organization, historically one of the better ones since Lou took over in '88. That said, Wedgewood may be a good goaltender in the NHL one day...I'm not sure if he's decent #1 material. That will remain to be seen at least for me until he proves me wrong.

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11-16-2012, 04:39 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
Though he very rarely misses a game, I'd say Kesler is superior to Zajac if he wasn't so injury-prone. When healthy, I see Kesler as the better player fairly clearly, though I still think highly of Zajac. Zajac is also a UFA, though I doubt he would not re-sign in Jersey. I still see the Kovalchuk point and it's blindingly obvious he's untouchable at this point and I don't blame you guys for that.

re: Wedgewood. My organization once said they had a lot of confidence in Dan Cloutier's abilities. Still waiting to see the logic in that. But, it might be very hard to not trust your organization, historically one of the better ones since Lou took over in '88. That said, Wedgewood may be a good goaltender in the NHL one day...I'm not sure if he's decent #1 material. That will remain to be seen at least for me until he proves me wrong.
I like you

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Old
11-16-2012, 04:44 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by JerseyGuy276 View Post
I like you
I'm just trying to play nice. Nobody likes to see ****-slinging matches between fan bases in the trade forum. At least I don't.

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Old
11-16-2012, 04:47 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
Though he very rarely misses a game, I'd say Kesler is superior to Zajac if he wasn't so injury-prone. When healthy, I see Kesler as the better player fairly clearly, though I still think highly of Zajac. Zajac is also a UFA, though I doubt he would not re-sign in Jersey. I still see the Kovalchuk point and it's blindingly obvious he's untouchable at this point and I don't blame you guys for that.

re: Wedgewood. My organization once said they had a lot of confidence in Dan Cloutier's abilities. Still waiting to see the logic in that. But, it might be very hard to not trust your organization, historically one of the better ones since Lou took over in '88. That said, Wedgewood may be a good goaltender in the NHL one day...I'm not sure if he's decent #1 material. That will remain to be seen at least for me until he proves me wrong.
Before trading their own top 6 forwards, Devils have another needs, and some serious ones, like getting some... Top 6 forwards.

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Old
11-16-2012, 04:49 PM
  #55
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Big fat no

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Old
11-16-2012, 04:50 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri the Fury View Post
Before trading their own top 6 forwards, Devils have another needs, and some serious ones, like getting some... Top 6 forwards.
Yeah, I understand. If the price is right and you really want Booth, I'll talk.

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Old
11-16-2012, 04:53 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeslerKrony View Post
Well, the way you wrote this, it's like our players are garbage. Kesler is a legitimate 70pt #1 center (he was injured a bit this year but so was Zajac).

I also argue you do need Schneider, I don't have confidence (and neither should your GM) that Frazee & co. are going to do the job that an amazing Brodeur, even on the decline, has done. And that's going to feel weird (for fans of the Devils) to not have that franchise #1 goalie to save the day and stabilize the back end.

Kassian is better than just a prospect, he was after all, playing in the NHL and showing flashes of dominance. And if we add a 1st/prospect, how can you not say it's good value at least? Kovalchuk is the best player, but it's good value for sure.
And Zajac is a legit 65 point center. Kesler is a great player but he's not THAT big of an upgrade.

I trust Lou's judgment. If him and Conte are high on Wedgewood, it's for a specific reason. Schneider wouldn't get an opportunity to start until Brodeur retires, which is after 2014 at the earliest.

Kassian is not that great. He has a poor attitude and is one of those guys that expects to be handed a job without putting the work in. At least he did in Buffalo. He didn't do that great in Rochester last year when he got demoted, he felt it was beneath him.

Trust me, I was aboard the Kassian hype train going into last season, but that disappeared quickly. Kassian was valuable because he was a special breed of skill, size, and attitude, but the reason Buffalo traded him was that Marcus Foligno was better at literally everything Kassian does. So is David Clarkson. Kassian will be a decent NHL player but he's not a can't miss blue chipper by any means.

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Old
11-16-2012, 05:29 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zippy316 View Post
Devils don't need Schnieder though, and it's not like they'd trade Kovalchuk, a guy who fills a much bigger need than Schnieder, for him. Edler's a nice piece, but it would leave the Devils offense very shallow.

Brodeur and Hedberg both aren't leaving until after 2013-2014, when their contracts expire. The plan was to have the youngsters develop and take over then, even if they weren't ready, the Devils will probably just sign a UFA goalie to play alongside one of them.
Just responding to a Devils fan who thought that their proposal was so much better than the op...

The idea that Zajac = Kesler given their contracts is absolutely insane. Zajac is a pending UFA while Kesler is at a minimum as good a player, most would say better, and is signed to a long-term contract at a good rate.

Schneider has earned a chance to start over Luongo due to how good he's been. I agree he's unproven and this fact is probably not given enough consideration by Canucks fans who want to see Luongo moved. I do believe that at this point in their careers, Luongo is quite a bit better than Marty and Schneider is potentially better than either.

I agree that the Devils can't make a trade involving Kovy unless they are getting a true #1 centre or defenseman back...I honestly see the Devils rebuilding soon as their offensive prospects don't seem to be coming through (but I don't follow prospects as much as others around here)...that being said, I feel the same way about Vancouver in the next few years.

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Old
11-16-2012, 05:35 PM
  #59
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Kovalchuk with that contract is untradeable, especially to the Canucks.

He's in a similar boat to Luongo. Teams aren't going to eat that albatross of a contract, ESPECIALLY with CBA potentially changing forcing teams to eat salary for retired players.
Or if it makes the original team retain the salary, Vancouver would just be unable to retain any extra salary of any sort as they'd be saddled with Luongo's.

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Old
11-16-2012, 06:00 PM
  #60
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Nucks get stuck with Luo and Kovalchuk when they;re both 40

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Old
11-16-2012, 06:09 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
Just responding to a Devils fan who thought that their proposal was so much better than the op...

The idea that Zajac = Kesler given their contracts is absolutely insane. Zajac is a pending UFA while Kesler is at a minimum as good a player, most would say better, and is signed to a long-term contract at a good rate.

Schneider has earned a chance to start over Luongo due to how good he's been. I agree he's unproven and this fact is probably not given enough consideration by Canucks fans who want to see Luongo moved. I do believe that at this point in their careers, Luongo is quite a bit better than Marty and Schneider is potentially better than either.

I agree that the Devils can't make a trade involving Kovy unless they are getting a true #1 centre or defenseman back...I honestly see the Devils rebuilding soon as their offensive prospects don't seem to be coming through (but I don't follow prospects as much as others around here)...that being said, I feel the same way about Vancouver in the next few years.
Devils don't necessarily need neither defence-men nor centers at the moment but they terribly lack of wingers. This proposal is doomed since it doesn't take in consideration the Devils needs.

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Old
11-16-2012, 06:14 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
Yeah, I understand. If the price is right and you really want Booth, I'll talk.
Booth and Raymond are both "getable" as far as I'm concerned. Obviously Kovalchuck's off the table, and keeping them is fine with me, but if you can provide a suitable replacement in terms of value and team needs...let's talk, Devils' fans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hlaverty06 View Post
Nucks get stuck with Luo and Kovalchuk when they;re both 40
A top end goalie and a top sniper, tied up to a reasonable cap hit until their 40, say it ain't so

In the Luongo threads, I say that Luongo's contract might be a negative for the acquiring team, but honestly, it doesn't do more then just slightly bug me. I'm happy with it, and hell, let's get Hossa too!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nine to Five View Post
Kovalchuk with that contract is untradeable, especially to the Canucks.

He's in a similar boat to Luongo. Teams aren't going to eat that albatross of a contract, ESPECIALLY with CBA potentially changing forcing teams to eat salary for retired players.
Or if it makes the original team retain the salary, Vancouver would just be unable to retain any extra salary of any sort as they'd be saddled with Luongo's.
I'm fine with this. Both Kovalchuk and Lu give us a widened window to win now, and in the future, I don't see their cap hits being as big a deal as it's made out to be (even with the starting 40 million dollar cap from this last CBA).

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Old
11-16-2012, 07:22 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by blankall View Post
Kovalchuk is only 29. His "retirement" years start at 36. It's likely he may decline for the last 2 years before this. However, a declining Kovalchuk is still likely to put up 50-65 points a year. It's not the end of the world to pay too much for a player of that calibre. Especially if you've already received 4-5 years of PPG play.

Goalies, on the other hand, who decline are a total dead weight to their team. You cannot have a starting goalie who is not playing at their peak. If he lets in 1 more goal a night on 30 shots, you are sunk. Luongo is 33 now and his retirement years do not start unti 39.

Another issue is that Kovalchuk is Russian. The KHL will match or exceed his NHL salary at anytime, and he is likely to go there if things go sour here. Luongo is not Russian.
Kind of hypocritical that Luongo's contract gets criticism and skepticism on the basis of his age, in a NJ thread
I recognize your point and agree with it, but Luongo could easily be a valuable asset to a team into his late 30s, and possibly be a great backup veteran in his early 40s. Time will tell though.

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Old
11-16-2012, 07:24 PM
  #64
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Raymond + 3rd for Tallinder + 2nd.

Much more realistic and reasonable imo.

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Old
11-16-2012, 07:40 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Raymond + 3rd for Tallinder + 2nd.

Much more realistic and reasonable imo.

Raymond will be UFA in less than 7 months...

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Old
11-16-2012, 07:41 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Raymond + 3rd for Tallinder + 2nd.

Much more realistic and reasonable imo.
No way we'd give a 2nd for a guy who would be a mere rental this year

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Old
11-16-2012, 07:45 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeslerKrony View Post
Thanks for the detailed points.

Maybe it's just my opinion, but I'm thinking:

1) Schneider will be better than your prospects or anyone you pick up via UFA (unless you are willing to massively overpay).

2) Your "projected" lineup after the trade doesn't factor in that you might lose Elias to retirement and that I don't feel Bobby Butler will improve past a 2nd/3rd line tweener, in which you'll have more holes in your top 6. I would go on to say that I think Kassian would make your top 6 in that scenario:

Henrique - Kesler - Butler/Elias
Clarkson - Zubrus - Kassian (would be beast)

So while you lose Kovalchuk, you get two top 6 players for a number of years to come, which also has some value.

3) NJ is asking for Edler, but look at all of your D (prospects + depth). Also Edler's value is lower given he's a UFA (and he still wants to play here) which is bad asset management for us.

I'm still willing to add a 1st or Schroeder to the OP to make it more fair. I realize the top end talent that Kovy is, but this top 6 is too beast to ignore:

Sedin - Sedin - Burrows
Kovalchuk - Zajac (if he resigns) - Booth/Higgins
He might be, but we aren't in a rush for a replacing goaltender. Schnieder isn't needed right now. Edler is enticing due to the fact that he is a top defender.

To me, you're not going to put together a deal that will make the Devils want to part with Kovalchuk. Guys like him only get traded when the team or the player wants to be traded, scenarios like Kovalchuk leaving Atlanta, Heatley/Ottawa, or a team going in a different direction (Thornton), is the only way these guys get traded.

Kovalchuk fits none of those scenarios.

I ask you but is that deal worth it for the Devils? Kovalchuk is their top forward for the next 10+ years. Look at your top six that the Devils would have after trading Kovalchuk and Zajac, and they have absolutely no immediate replacement for either one. That top six is awful, especially when/if Elias and Zubrus leave.

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Old
11-16-2012, 07:47 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
Just responding to a Devils fan who thought that their proposal was so much better than the op...

The idea that Zajac = Kesler given their contracts is absolutely insane. Zajac is a pending UFA while Kesler is at a minimum as good a player, most would say better, and is signed to a long-term contract at a good rate.

Schneider has earned a chance to start over Luongo due to how good he's been. I agree he's unproven and this fact is probably not given enough consideration by Canucks fans who want to see Luongo moved. I do believe that at this point in their careers, Luongo is quite a bit better than Marty and Schneider is potentially better than either.

I agree that the Devils can't make a trade involving Kovy unless they are getting a true #1 centre or defenseman back...I honestly see the Devils rebuilding soon as their offensive prospects don't seem to be coming through (but I don't follow prospects as much as others around here)...that being said, I feel the same way about Vancouver in the next few years.
Devils aren't really that bad right now. Only way the Devils have to go rebuild is if they lose most of Elias, Zubrus, Clarkson, and Zajac. If they lose both Elias/Zajac, we are pretty much screwed. If we lose one, we may be able to get by. Depends if Butler or Tedenby take a step forward and Josefson looks very, very good in Albany, if he stays healthy, he might be the next Elias for us.

Schnieder's value to us isn't that high though, because he's not needed like I said. As long as the Devils manage to retain most of their upcoming UFAs, the core of the forward group except for Elias and Zubrus is under 30. By the time they start waning, the next group of forwards will be entering the NHL.

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11-16-2012, 07:50 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by hlaverty06 View Post
No way we'd give a 2nd for a guy who would be a mere rental this year
And Tallinder is 7 years older and overpaid. It was just a suggestion, and it's only downgrading from a 2nd to a 3rd.

EDIT: On second thought, I hadn't realized how much Tallinder was making. I don't think I'd do that trade either.

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Old
11-16-2012, 07:56 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
And Tallinder is 7 years older and overpaid. It was just a suggestion, and it's only downgrading from a 2nd to a 3rd.

EDIT: On second thought, I hadn't realized how much Tallinder was making. I don't think I'd do that trade either.
I think the best scenario is a D'Agostini for Tallinder trade. Blues fans seem to like it and Devils fans as well. With a pretty deep forward corps, they can avoid to give up D'Agostini, and they need another defender as well.

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Old
11-16-2012, 07:59 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
And Tallinder is 7 years older and overpaid. It was just a suggestion, and it's only downgrading from a 2nd to a 3rd.

EDIT: On second thought, I hadn't realized how much Tallinder was making. I don't think I'd do that trade either.
Cool because you just don't trade your top pairing defence-man (minutes and QoC) for a 2nd/3rd line rental player.

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11-16-2012, 08:13 PM
  #72
hlaverty06
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
And Tallinder is 7 years older and overpaid. It was just a suggestion, and it's only downgrading from a 2nd to a 3rd.

EDIT: On second thought, I hadn't realized how much Tallinder was making. I don't think I'd do that trade either.
if anything a slight overpayment. He could easily play 2nd pairing minutes and on the Powerplay. I'd say 3.375 million isnt that far off.

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11-16-2012, 08:16 PM
  #73
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if anything a slight overpayment. He could easily play 2nd pairing minutes and on the Powerplay. I'd say 3.375 million isnt that far off.
In Vancouver he'd be our third pairing defenseman though. We know how much flak Ballard gets, and he doesn't make that much more than Tallinder. Ideally I think Vancouver would need a cheap reliable 3rd pairing defenseman to possibly replace Ballard in the event of a cap crunch, but Tallinder isn't really the best fit, I think.

EDIT: Although I think I misread capgeek, I originally thought he was making 3.75 mil. My bad.

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11-16-2012, 08:19 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
In Vancouver he'd be our third pairing defenseman though. We know how much flak Ballard gets, and he doesn't make that much more than Tallinder. Ideally I think Vancouver would need a cheap reliable 3rd pairing defenseman to possibly replace Ballard in the event of a cap crunch, but Tallinder isn't really the best fit, I think.

EDIT: Although I think I misread capgeek, I originally thought he was making 3.75 mil. My bad.
I got threads confused I thought this was the Dags for Tallinder. Yeah it doesn't make sense for Vancouver to use Tallinder.

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11-16-2012, 08:44 PM
  #75
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Not even close. Devils pass easily

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