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When Will We See the NHL Again?

View Poll Results: When Will We See the NHL Again?
On or before Dec. 1. 1 2.56%
On or before Jan. 1. 8 20.51%
On or before Feb 1. 1 2.56%
No Hockey This Season - Deal by July 1 (in time for draft) 16 41.03%
No Hockey This Season - Deal by Sept 1 11 28.21%
Other 2 5.13%
Voters: 39. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-15-2012, 12:37 PM
  #26
Sarava
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Originally Posted by UsernameWasTaken View Post
they can't just cancel NHL hockey forever...*gulp*...can they?

I say by Jan. 1.
I would be shocked if there's no hockey this year.

Both sides try to make things look dire in their attempts to bluff the other side in to thinking they mean business. Something will crack and it will probably be in the next 3-4 weeks...which would leave us with a Christmas/New Years (somewhere in that range) start to a shortened season.

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11-15-2012, 01:44 PM
  #27
Bubba88
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what Sarava said

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Old
11-16-2012, 10:29 AM
  #28
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I have found that Daly has been a straight shooter in commenting about the negotiations with the NHLPA. He sums up the entire 61 days quite nicely in one paragraph:

"I find it incredible that the union is suggesting that we are somehow 'close' to a deal," added Daly. "They have utterly refused to negotiate for months. They have made essentially one proposal - five times. They continue to request a 'guaranteed' players share as part of the next agreement and we repeatedly tell them maybe they should get a reality check. And in the mean time, maybe they can make their position clear to us on 50-50, on the make-whole and on player contracting issues."

It is clear to me that if the players donít act, Fehr will drag this out until itís too late and the season is lost. Perhaps a few players, especially the veterans, will wake up when they read the words from ex-players like Recchi and Therien, and challenge Fehr now, before itís too late.

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11-16-2012, 10:32 AM
  #29
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This **** is over, just call the damn thing.

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Old
11-16-2012, 11:39 AM
  #30
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TSN were speculating on today's news that the NHL may lose some vets if this lockout drags out. The names they mentioned specifically were Alfredsson and Selanne, but there are many others in their mid 30's and beyond who may be a victim. I did some research on which players retired or did not return from Europe during the 04-05 fiasco and had forgotten just how many never played again or in Hull's case, found his desire was gone. Someone needs to dangle this reality in front of the vets:

Retirees:

Vincent Damphousse
Ron Francis
Igor Larionov
Al MacInnis
Mark Messier
Adam Oates
Felix Potvin
Cliff Ronning
Scott Stevens
Steve Thomas
Brett Hull (shortly after the season began)

Furthermore, players that stayed in Europe (good riddance, however)

Roman Cechmanek
Arturs Irbe
Kenny Jonsson
Boris Mironov
Aleksey Morozov
Andrei Nikolishin
Robert Reichel
Mikael Renberg
Tommy Salo
Roman Turek

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Old
11-16-2012, 12:10 PM
  #31
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Ya, the PA is unwilling to negotiate, but the owners want to take a 2 week break.

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11-16-2012, 12:18 PM
  #32
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The break proposal was just a response to a leak that December 1st was a drop dead date. It was just Bettman showing to Fehr that that isn't the case.

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11-16-2012, 02:03 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by IU Hawks fan View Post
The break proposal was just a response to a leak that December 1st was a drop dead date. It was just Bettman showing to Fehr that that isn't the case.
Or it's because the owners know that the players aren't just going to accept whatever the owners want, so they try to pressure them by taking away another paycheque.

To say the owners are willing to negotiate couldn't be further from the truth. They want the PA to accept their last proposal without any changes. The fact that the players are willing to bring in a mediator and the owners aren't, tells you all you need to know about the willingness to negotiate.

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Old
11-16-2012, 02:14 PM
  #34
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http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/201...at-lose-money/

Good article.

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11-16-2012, 02:19 PM
  #35
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As far as I'm concerned, its all of their fault. Players and owners alike. And I'm certainly not going to pretend that I know this or that, based on the PR spin that one or both of the sides decide to leak to the public. None of us know what is really happening behind closed doors.

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11-16-2012, 05:44 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
The author used extremely flawed analysis to draw his conclusions. Even after he was called out on it, he doubled down on his mistake. The numbers were right there in front of him. It was a hack article, like so many hockey related articles that come out of Edmonton.

He screwed up his conclusions and then still stuck to them after being called out on how he misread the reports.

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Old
11-16-2012, 05:51 PM
  #37
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Sounds more speculation then fact. Try this one on for size:

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-l...bad_decisions/

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11-16-2012, 06:39 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by hockeydoug View Post
The author used extremely flawed analysis to draw his conclusions. Even after he was called out on it, he doubled down on his mistake. The numbers were right there in front of him. It was a hack article, like so many hockey related articles that come out of Edmonton.

He screwed up his conclusions and then still stuck to them after being called out on how he misread the reports.
They are facts. Its a fact Florida made 117mil in the last 14 years as a company. Its a fact that they didn't make near as much money in the last lockout.

HRR shows they lost money, because of the way it is set up. Thats why billionaires are buying NHL franchises. They know they can profit but claim it as a loss.

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11-16-2012, 06:41 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by BobbyJet View Post
Sounds more speculation then fact. Try this one on for size:

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-l...bad_decisions/
Aaahhh, the old convenient 'its speculation, not fact' when things aren't what they seem to you. You probably thought the Kane incident in the summer was 'speculation' at first too.

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11-16-2012, 06:47 PM
  #40
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Your mind is closed ... just read the article. You may be enlightened. It blames both sides, and rightly so.

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Old
11-16-2012, 08:14 PM
  #41
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11-16-2012, 08:56 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
They are facts.
Yes, he used actual numbers but he analyzed them poorly and drew poor conclusions as if the successful contractual arrangements SSE for arena management apply to all small and non-traditional market teams.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
Its a fact Florida made 117mil in the last 14 years as a company. Its a fact that they didn't make near as much money in the last lockout.
Fact: AOC made 117 through 2010.
Fact:The Panthers still lost a pile of money.
The parent company that owns the Panthers and AOC made the difference. The Panthers were still hammered and AOC made a pile of money. It was crap work by the author to miss that the audit was of the arena and not the Panthers. Panthers losses (Forbes) exceeded gains by AOC in a number of years after county obligations. The Panthers still ate close to 2/3rds of that profit from AOC from 1998 on. SSE wasn't making money like the author implies, mostly because the didn't read his own references. Maybe he used Eklund's sources.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
HRR shows they lost money, because of the way it is set up. Thats why billionaires are buying NHL franchises. They know they can profit but claim it as a loss.
The only real scam for a parent organization of a franchise like the Panthers against HRR is the luxury suites and box seats. For a Franchise like the Panthers, that money is not very significant. It's set up for a company to own the franchise and to make money elsewhere. Florida's situation has many unique characteristics that prevent it from being used as an example to apply to most small or non-traditional markets. If AOC had not secured such a friendly arena management contract SSE would not still own the Panthers.

The valuable asset for SSE is the arena management contract for the arena (AOC), not the franchise. That's the main point the author didn't grasp or convey. It doesn't mean they (SSE) aren't skimming where they can from the Panthers, but it's a marginal amount and they are and still should be among the first franchises on the bottom of the earnings list. Eventually AOC will have to get a new contract from the county (going to be tough to pull off what they did before), but the Panthers will still be taking a bath in red ink unless there is a drastically different CBA.

It was a terrible article/post on may levels since he completely botched his interpretation of the data and then applied that screw up to conclusions. My rule is to never trust an Edmonton article related to hockey until it's verified someplace else, at least 1000 miles away.

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Old
11-16-2012, 09:45 PM
  #43
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Both sides have blame to share for the lockout. However the lockout not ending is largely on the players.

The fact that the players want a guaranteed sum no matter the HRR and want that sum to increase in the coming years is ridiculous. Maybe if they came off that demand the owners would come off some of theirs.

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11-18-2012, 03:15 AM
  #44
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Hawkaholic and SPT

you two are the guys that tend to one side more than most others... WHY? Both sides suck. Both sides are to blame. Both sides aren't willing and look at the other side.
NFL owners shared 60% of 9 billion revenue last year. NHL less than 10% of 3.3 billion last year.

Players are stupid, same for the owners. I just want hockey back. I just want to see the game. It just sucks that the guys that in the end are the reason they make money hace nothing to say in these negotiations. Fans are the reason they generate money. Fans buy tickets, Fans buy merchandise stuff, Fans watch it on TV, Fans watch the commercials during the games

No Fans = No Money
No Hockey = No Fans
No Hockey = No Money for them


I'm so sick of seeing Daly, Fehr, Bettman and all those guys. They all take away my favorite hobby. Life goes on, I know this. It's still just sports and a hobby, but life would be more fun with it.

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11-18-2012, 04:59 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Bubba88 View Post
Hawkaholic and SPT

you two are the guys that tend to one side more than most others... WHY? Both sides suck. Both sides are to blame. Both sides aren't willing and look at the other side.
NFL owners shared 60% of 9 billion revenue last year. NHL less than 10% of 3.3 billion last year.

Players are stupid, same for the owners. I just want hockey back. I just want to see the game. It just sucks that the guys that in the end are the reason they make money hace nothing to say in these negotiations. Fans are the reason they generate money. Fans buy tickets, Fans buy merchandise stuff, Fans watch it on TV, Fans watch the commercials during the games

No Fans = No Money
No Hockey = No Fans
No Hockey = No Money for them


I'm so sick of seeing Daly, Fehr, Bettman and all those guys. They all take away my favorite hobby. Life goes on, I know this. It's still just sports and a hobby, but life would be more fun with it.
The owners have blame in this for sure but for the players to basically but it all on Bettman and act like their poor innocent victims in this whole thing is getting old and fast.

As for revenue sharing it's apples and oranges. I explained it in the Toews comments post but you can't compare other leagues to the NHL when it comes to revenue sharing because of where that revenue comes from.

Sure the NFL shares 60% of it's revenue, because 75% of it's revenue is generated from the multi-billion $ TV deals they have and they have multiple of them. So the Giants are giving up their own money to the Jaguars instead their just giving up most of the TV money to them and they still keep all their own profit from tickets, merchandise and etc. It's similar in baseball and the NBA to where the huge TV deals is where most of the revenue sharing $ comes from.

In the NHL however almost 75% of the leagues revenue is generated from teams themselves individually and not from league wide deals and sponsorship. So when you ask for revenue sharing your not asking the Leafs and Rangers to let the Panthers and Coyotes to have most of the league wide pot money your asking them to give up their own profits to help out the league and simply put they won't I don't think they should. Again it's not league money your asking teams to give up their own money.

It's why the players need to get a reality check and accept making less. They play in a league that isn't popular enough to have multiple billion $ TV deals and can't generate millions on millions in sponsorship so to ask to be paid as the #3 highest paid pros in America in the last major pro sport in revenue is ridiculous and not realistic. I understand they don't want to give up their money but at the end of the day they don't make enough to make as much as they are and are basically asking fans to pay their higher salaries because how are owners going to get that money? Ticket prices go up, parking goes up, concessions go up.

Lastly from what I have seen as far as negotiations and such the owners and the NHL have at least come up with ways to try and solve it, the "make whole" provision, revising it, trying to find ways to get players their $. Meanwhile players are demanding a fixed income with a % raise for the coming years no matter the HRR and are in the media talking about how bad their treated and bad mouthing the other side. It comes off as, greedy, petty, and seedy and just revolting to me.

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Old
11-18-2012, 08:32 AM
  #46
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Both side must take their share of blame but it is the Feher and the NHLPA that refuse to recognize what needs to be done in the present. The salaries have been out of whack for a while and their mistrust for the owners has reached paranoia-like proportions. Though he pretends to, Fehr doesn't know the business side of the NHL and is playing poker with many peoples livelihood.

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Old
11-18-2012, 10:13 AM
  #47
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The only reason I tend to lean towards the players more than the owners is because the owners are the ones that sign the players to these deals. They want a max of 5 years for deals....WHY? Why not just not sign players to more than 5 years? You don't need a ****ing rule in place for that. Also, teams aren't really losing money (just like the Panthers in that article) and even if they are, they are still making millions upon millions of dollars with their other companies. There is a reason they buy these teams, because they know they can actually make money, but still hide it at the same time with the way HRR is defined.

Also, if you don't want to risk losing money, DON'T BUY A ****ING TEAM.

Both are to blame, but the owners are the ones that locked the players out of the system THEY built.

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Old
11-18-2012, 01:00 PM
  #48
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This is going through the summer. Fehr is determined to 'win' and the players don't seem to recognize that they do not have the upper hand here. It is a lockout, not a strike.

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Old
11-18-2012, 02:37 PM
  #49
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Will the players find out that Fehr is stupid?

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Old
11-18-2012, 04:55 PM
  #50
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Will the players find out that Fehr is stupid?
It's quite the opposite, Fehr is incredibly smart. He got a group of people I always thought where intelligent, in hockey players, to basically sign over their careers to him and allow him to decide their future even though he clearly has no care or worry for them and is only interested in advancing his own career. I just hope the players wake up and realize that this guy has no clue about the business of hockey, has lead work stoppages that resulted in nothing gained and has no interest in them or their career and couldn't care less about them.

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