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[MIA / TOR] Big Blockbuster (Reyes, Johnson, Buerhle to TOR)

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Old
11-16-2012, 04:30 PM
  #376
sparxx87
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Originally Posted by Martini View Post

The Jays gave up three of their top ten prospects on BBA's list of top tens. I will take their opinion on the prospects traded, over any blog writer or fan site considering that is what they do and are good at it.
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today...2/2614316.html

This is a great mark up on the trade and I will listen to their just made podcast that is all about this trade later. The Jays gave up quality, nothing is gonna change that fact while taking on all those contracts with some injury concern.
So we agree that listening to the experts makes more sense then listening to internet forum members? Excellent. Show me one expert who says this isn't a win for the Jays?

Comments made by you in this thread are more then enough evidence that you have no idea what you're talking about, and clearly some sort of bias against the Jays.

That scouting report by baseball America says the prospects are a defensive SS with no bat, a middle reliever, a mid rotation starter and a decent OF prospect? Please show me this 'treasure trove of talent'?


Please explain how a team can lose a deal, despite getting the 3 best players?

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11-16-2012, 04:42 PM
  #377
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Here's an interesting quirk about the Jays deal, and the implications it may have.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseba...-to-spurn-jays

Long story short, we have this really dumb law in our province that bans specific breeds of dog.

The general belief is that the dog itself is the true threat to the people of Ontario, regardless of the owner, or how well-behaved and harmless the dog may actually be.

I don't even own a dog and I hate this law, it is arbitrary and completely unfair. Any dog can be a threat to safety if in the hands of a careless or cruel owner, yet pitbulls have been made out to be the pariahs of the canine world here. And unless this law gets overturned, it may actually keep Buehrle from reporting.

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11-16-2012, 04:46 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
Given that none of Gose,
Gose isnt even a top ten prospect according to BBA.
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Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
Syndergaard, Sanchez,
Two power pitchers who have yet to learn control to go along with their potential.
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Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
or especially D'Arnaud
A catcher made of glass who at 23 is getting up there in age for a prospect.
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Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
were included in the deal (miraculously), no that isn't a treasure trove of talent. It's solid, certainly, but not a king's ransom of quality. A light-hitting, defensively skilled short-stop with long-term offensive concerns, a projected mid-rotation arm, a potential high strikeout reliever, and a young arm with major league experience who badly needs to improve his strikeout rate and add a third pitch to have long-term success in the rotation.
Three of the Jays top rated prospects, one who was considered the second best prospect of the system, a left handed pitcher who already has the polish and control to actually contribute next year while the Marlins are horrible, a defensive mided shortstop who makes the Marlins up the middle defense that much better then Reyes ever could, and filler who will fill out the Marlins MLB roster while they restart another rebuild. All that, while getting rid of those contracts. You have to look at this from the Marlins perspective, their goal was to get rid of those contracts, the talent that came with was just gravy considering they know they will be bad for the next few years.
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The Marlins got a few reasonably high-upside guys in return, but they certainly did not manage to get the creme de la creme of the Blue Jays minor league system, that much is certain. Every Jays fan I know is doing cartwheels over not having to include any of the above four guys for a reason.
Three of the Jays top ten prospects.
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Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
They have the highest major league upside. Nicolino was compared to Glavine in terms of style (a lefty who relies on deception and control rather than power) and pedigree, not upside. Unless you happen to think the Jays gave up a future 300 game winner, multiple Cy Young Award winner, and first ballot Hall of Famer (the very same Baseball America you cite so consistently views him as a third or fourth starter), it's a disingenuous comparison and intellectually dishonest to make that connection.
Not specificly considering nobody knows what kind of player Nicolino will turn out to be. But a comparison to Glavine is pretty impressive while with the players the Jays recieved you basicly know what you are getting, two of which have injury concern.

This was a trade about money, nothing more. It remains be seen what will transpire because of it.

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11-16-2012, 04:48 PM
  #379
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You know, I think I love you Martini.

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11-16-2012, 04:52 PM
  #380
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Originally Posted by Modo View Post
Here's an interesting quirk about the Jays deal, and the implications it may have.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseba...-to-spurn-jays

Long story short, we have this really dumb law in our province that bans specific breeds of dog.

The general belief is that the dog itself is the true threat to the people of Ontario, regardless of the owner, or how well-behaved and harmless the dog may actually be.

I don't even own a dog and I hate this law, it is arbitrary and completely unfair. Any dog can be a threat to safety if in the hands of a careless or cruel owner, yet pitbulls have been made out to be the pariahs of the canine world here. And unless this law gets overturned, it may actually keep Buehrle from reporting.
Well worst case scenario Buffalo is 160KM away.

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11-16-2012, 04:55 PM
  #381
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Originally Posted by Martini View Post
Gose isnt even a top ten prospect according to BBA.
Gose was rated thirty ninth overall on their pre-2012 season annual top 100 list. An elite outfield prospect with speed, contact ability, outstanding defensive play, and budding power. On most prospect lists he's ranked in the Jays top three. Check again, buddy.

Quote:
Two power pitchers who have yet to learn control to go along with their potential.
Syndergaard had a 3.94 strikeout to walk ratio in Lansing. Sanchez had a 1.90 strikeout to walk ratio in Lansing.

The former ratio is absolutely outstanding, particularly given Syndergaard's high strikeout ability (10.6 over 9 innings last year). Sanchez still needs some work, but anything above 2 strikeouts per walk is considered acceptable.

Try again.

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A catcher made of glass who at 23 is getting up there in age for a prospect.
The number seventeen ranked prospect on Baseball America (whose opinion you clearly value) and their pre-season annual top 100 list. The second-highest rank by a pure catcher in terms of position, and only one behind the top ranked, Devin Mesoraco at sixteen.

And 23 isn't even close to being old for a prospect, especially at catcher, a position that is notoriously difficult to master. D'Arnaud raked in Triple A this past season as well. Posey didn't become a regular until 23 years old and neither did Wieters. Travis is perfectly on track in terms of his projected trajectory to the majors.

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Three of the Jays top rated prospects, one who was considered the second best prospect of the system, a left handed pitcher who already has the polish and control to actually contribute next year while the Marlins are horrible, a defensive mided shortstop who makes the Marlins up the middle defense that much better then Reyes ever could, and filler who will fill out the Marlins MLB roster while they restart another rebuild. All that, while getting rid of those contracts. You have to look at this from the Marlins perspective, their goal was to get rid of those contracts, the talent that came with was just gravy considering they know they will be bad for the next few years.
Pure fluff. If you think that Nicolino will be a contributor at the big league level as early as next season, and not only that but contribute anything worthwhile, I have a public-funded stadium in Little Havana that you can finance that will be a GREAT deal for you and the city.

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Three of the Jays top ten prospects.
So the Jays went from the best or second best system to a top ten system. While accumulating ten combined all-star appearances in the deal.

I'll take that exchange any day. The precise value of building up such a quality system was to eventually be able to make transactions that are of tremendous importance to improving the major league club like we saw several days ago. The fact that none of the big four guys were touched is all the more remarkable. Marisnick would have been in that group prior to the season, but he really lost a lot of lustre by struggling so much this season.

Quote:
Not specificly considering nobody knows what kind of player Nicolino will turn out to be. But a comparison to Glavine is pretty impressive while with the players the Jays recieved you basicly know what you are getting, two of which have injury concern.
Four of the players that the Jays received in return have been all-stars in the past, three of them perennially.

Quote:
This was a trade about money, nothing more. It remains be seen what will transpire because of it.
Which was to the Jays advantage. You trying to pin it any other way than a huge advantage for Toronto is intellectually dishonest on your part.

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11-16-2012, 04:58 PM
  #382
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Originally Posted by Martini View Post
Gose isnt even a top ten prospect according to BBA.

Two power pitchers who have yet to learn control to go along with their potential.

A catcher made of glass who at 23 is getting up there in age for a prospect.

Three of the Jays top rated prospects, one who was considered the second best prospect of the system, a left handed pitcher who already has the polish and control to actually contribute next year while the Marlins are horrible, a defensive mided shortstop who makes the Marlins up the middle defense that much better then Reyes ever could, and filler who will fill out the Marlins MLB roster while they restart another rebuild. All that, while getting rid of those contracts. You have to look at this from the Marlins perspective, their goal was to get rid of those contracts, the talent that came with was just gravy considering they know they will be bad for the next few years.
Three of the Jays top ten prospects.

Not specificly considering nobody knows what kind of player Nicolino will turn out to be. But a comparison to Glavine is pretty impressive while with the players the Jays recieved you basicly know what you are getting, two of which have injury concern.

This was a trade about money, nothing more. It remains be seen what will transpire because of it.
I don't care what they say, I care what the people who watch the games say.. A lot of these projections are based on stats. Gose has a rocket arm, speed to burn, excellent defensively and his bat is coming around. He's been compared to Kenny Lofton if he hits his ceiling.

How many times did you watch Lansing last year? Out of curiosity?

A catcher who also happens to be the second best C prospect in the majors?

And I'll give up 3 of our top 10 prospects for 3 of their top 6 or 7 major league players any day of the week.

Why do we have to look at it from a Marlins perspective? What about a Blue Jays perspective; the team we cheer for?

We got an allstar shortstop and a significant upgrade at the position, 2 top end starters who significantly improve the rotation, an upgrade at the backup catcher, and a versitile switch hitting base stealer....... All for good, but not great prospects. All while keeping our two highest ceiling pitchers, our highest ceiling OF prospect, and a great catcher who was the main peice in the Roy Halladay trade who happend to be the best pitcher in baseball. d'Arnaud is ready for the show, but we already have a young major league catcher.. Circumstance has prevented him from seeing time with the big club over the past two years.

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11-16-2012, 06:21 PM
  #383
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Originally Posted by Martini View Post
You have to look at this from the Marlins perspective, their goal was to get rid of those contracts, the talent that came with was just gravy considering they know they will be bad for the next few years.
How much deeper into perspective do you want to look into? Loria pretty much destroyed baseball in that city. They are never going to forgive him for swindling them out of a ballpark, then pulling the plug on the team so early in the season. More importantly, the team will never get anymore attractive free agents, no matter how much money is thrown at them. The team will likely never be good again, and Loria will blame it on the fans, and he'll say it with a straight face.

You just can't put the Marlins on the winners list due to the circumstances involved. Just because they did what they wanted to do, doesnt mean they did it well. They tore the team apart on no reasonable grounds. It doesn't matter if the team came in last. If Loria was serious about competing, he would keep trying, but we probably all gave him too much credit.

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11-16-2012, 07:14 PM
  #384
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Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
Gose was rated thirty ninth overall on their pre-2012 season annual top 100 list. An elite outfield prospect with speed, contact ability, outstanding defensive play, and budding power. On most prospect lists he's ranked in the Jays top three. Check again, buddy.
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today...3/2614294.html

And?

"Elite", in your words, prospects just dont fall of the proverbial cliff when it comes to their very own team. Now, this could have been some sort of short sightedness on BBA's part, but I highly doubt an "Elite" prospect suddenly free falls without any sort of reason as to why. While Marisnick, the number two ranked prospect on the just released Jays top ten, an "Elite" five tool prospect, gets shafted when BBA has him ranked as the second best prospect? Something seems a bit strange over certain evaluations of the players who were traded, or the over rating of certain prospects who dont even rank in the top 10. Confusing, to say the least.


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Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
Syndergaard had a 3.94 strikeout to walk ratio in Lansing. Sanchez had a 1.90 strikeout to walk ratio in Lansing.

The former ratio is absolutely outstanding, particularly given Syndergaard's high strikeout ability (10.6 over 9 innings last year). Sanchez still needs some work, but anything above 2 strikeouts per walk is considered acceptable.

Try again.
And both averaged almost if not more then five walks per nine innings last year. Thats an awful lot of pitches in this day and age of pitch counts and a sign that neither have the control of Nicolino, who was and is the more polished prospect right now. Now, thats what you get when you deal with power pitchers, this I know, but for the Marlins, they took the best possible pitcher with similar, if not more upside then the both of them considering he has a much, much better grasp with his control. So many pitches that add up that quickly for the two young power pitchers is a cause of concern obviously for arm issues later on down the road, while the Marlins take the guy who is farther along with the one thing a successful pitcher needs, control.


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Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
The number seventeen ranked prospect on Baseball America (whose opinion you clearly value) and their pre-season annual top 100 list. The second-highest rank by a pure catcher in terms of position, and only one behind the top ranked, Devin Mesoraco at sixteen.
You said enough with the bolded. Last year, before yet another injury. His position puts him at a premium, that I understand, but at his age, he should be at least getting spot duty in the majors. A year is a long time for a prospect, and while he may be still highly reguarded in some circles, his value will diminish rapidly if he doesnt put everything togther.
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And 23 isn't even close to being old for a prospect, especially at catcher, a position that is notoriously difficult to master. D'Arnaud raked in Triple A this past season as well. Posey didn't become a regular until 23 years old and neither did Wieters. Travis is perfectly on track in terms of his projected trajectory to the majors.
Its the same thing with "power" forwards in the NHL. Catcher, if I recall, is the fastest way to the majors. Comparing D'Arnaud to a superstar like Posey is wishful thinking, even Weiters is a stretch considering both are, you guessed it, in the majors. Does he have what it takes? Who knows, but the odds at this moment dont look too promising just on his injury history alone.


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Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
Pure fluff. If you think that Nicolino will be a contributor at the big league level as early as next season, and not only that but contribute anything worthwhile, I have a public-funded stadium in Little Havana that you can finance that will be a GREAT deal for you and the city.
You dont know if he will or wont, thats the beauty of baseball. Contribute? for a last place team? He has to do nothing but develop and has the luxury of having a chance to develop in the majors. Thats having your cake and eating it.


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Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
So the Jays went from the best or second best system to a top ten system. While accumulating ten combined all-star appearances in the deal.
They also got a couple question marks in the process and injury concern. Now, coupled with the whole Burh dog situation this trade might be a bit more red tape then first imagined.
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Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
I'll take that exchange any day. The precise value of building up such a quality system was to eventually be able to make transactions that are of tremendous importance to improving the major league club like we saw several days ago. The fact that none of the big four guys were touched is all the more remarkable. Marisnick would have been in that group prior to the season, but he really lost a lot of lustre by struggling so much this season.
Yet is the second ranked prospect?


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Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
Four of the players that the Jays received in return have been all-stars in the past, three of them perennially.
And good for the Jays. Hopefully this trade works out for them and finally they can be considered a threat to the better teams in their division. Like I said before, I highly doubt this trade bothers the powers of the East one bit. Its a good start if those players aquired buck the trend and stay healthy but for teams such as the Yankees only puts them in a more viable position to spend more money.


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Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
Which was to the Jays advantage. You trying to pin it any other way than a huge advantage for Toronto is intellectually dishonest on your part.
Its not. Its a questionable trade for both teams involved with the only thing thats fact is the Marlins got rid of all of that money. Everything else will be played out on the field and right now, nobody can predict the future.

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11-16-2012, 07:22 PM
  #385
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How much deeper into perspective do you want to look into? Loria pretty much destroyed baseball in that city. They are never going to forgive him for swindling them out of a ballpark, then pulling the plug on the team so early in the season. More importantly, the team will never get anymore attractive free agents, no matter how much money is thrown at them. The team will likely never be good again, and Loria will blame it on the fans, and he'll say it with a straight face.
Its not the first time, and it probably wont be the last. Marlin fans have nobody to blame but themselves if they believe anything Loria says.
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You just can't put the Marlins on the winners list due to the circumstances involved. Just because they did what they wanted to do, doesnt mean they did it well. They tore the team apart on no reasonable grounds. It doesn't matter if the team came in last. If Loria was serious about competing, he would keep trying, but we probably all gave him too much credit.
They were a last place team with a huge payroll. You cannot blame them for trading away the talent in lieu of financial responsability. Loria has a bottom line, and just like any businessman, did what he had to do. You cant blame him, its his team. He can do what he wants and theres nothing anybody can do about. Is it wrong, sure. But if he needs to lower payroll at the expense of his ball club, a ball club with a new stadium that nobody wanted to see, you cant blame him for looking out for his own best interests.

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11-16-2012, 07:42 PM
  #386
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Its not the first time, and it probably wont be the last. Marlin fans have nobody to blame but themselves if they believe anything Loria says.

They were a last place team with a huge payroll. You cannot blame them for trading away the talent in lieu of financial responsability. Loria has a bottom line, and just like any businessman, did what he had to do. You cant blame him, its his team. He can do what he wants and theres nothing anybody can do about. Is it wrong, sure. But if he needs to lower payroll at the expense of his ball club, a ball club with a new stadium that nobody wanted to see, you cant blame him for looking out for his own best interests.
You don't seem to grasp the magnitude of these moves.

And no matter how many more wins these moves gives the Jays, the fact is that they improved their team. How long should they wait for the Yankees and Sox to stop spending, or for the Orioles/Rays young teams to start getting old? Your view that it's not the right time to start being competitive, but when is the right time????? Under your perspective, they shouldn't even bother at all. They mind as well relocate to the west.

A team tries to win, and you criticize them. Another team purposely tanks, and you laud them. I hope that's not the way you would run your own business, because under most if not nearly every other situation, ruining your product into the ground is the worst way to run a business.

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11-16-2012, 07:48 PM
  #387
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You guys are hilarious considering neither of you have probably watched any of the prospects play more than twice.

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11-16-2012, 08:00 PM
  #388
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You don't seem to grasp the magnitude of these moves.
I do, actually. I see the Marlins as a team that didnt generate the revenue they thought bringing in a bunch of high priced free agents would bring, coupled with a brand new stadium that had a huge aquarium, and a big mouthed manager who is past his due date in terms of intelligence. So, instead of sticking with that model, they, for the umpteenth time, decided to blow it up and rebuild. They, like any responsable business, have a bottom line and are sticking with it instead of losing money. Thats good business no matter what anybody thinks. Trim the fat instead of going under.
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And no matter how many more wins these moves gives the Jays, the fact is that they improved their team. How long should they wait for the Yankees and Sox to stop spending, or for the Orioles/Rays young teams to start getting old? Your view that it's not the right time to start being competitive, but when is the right time????? Under your perspective, they shouldn't even bother at all. They mind as well relocate to the west.
It remains to be seen just how improved the Jays actually are. Nobody can predict the future. Now, if you are saying on paper they are improved, then congrats, they sure are. But then, you can go as far as, on paper, financially, the Marlins are improved with this trade also considering they have reduced their payroll to under 20 million. Thats the one thing many here have a hard time understanding.
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A team tries to win, and you criticize them. Another team purposely tanks, and you laud them. I hope that's not the way you would run your own business, because under most if not nearly every other situation, ruining your product into the ground is the worst way to run a business.
Being responsible isnt running a team into the ground. Its being smart enough to realise that if you arent making the type of money you thought you would while spending alot of money, then, to rectify the situation, you get rid of all those contracts and start over.

This isnt the first time this has happened to the Marlins. That area obviously isnt a baseball town and Loria, no matter what stupid moves he makes, shouldnt be blasted for protecting his investment. If Marlin fans are out raged, then maybe they should have gone to a few more games here and there if this latest incarnation of the Marlins was something they wanted to get behind.

Blame Loria, but also blame the local fanbase too.

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11-16-2012, 08:10 PM
  #389
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And Gose was the second-ranked prospect on the club coming into the season. The only reason he's not listed on that list is because he was actually hitting in the majors.

You know, the goal of any prospect. He was good enough to be promoted this season at a very young age for a toolsy outfielder.

He's a better prospect than Marisnick by most measures, particularly after Jake's ****** 2012 campaign when he struck out far too much, had a low batting average, and struggled to make contact. He's a very good prospect, but he's far from a polished product and still has a high bust threshold (like most baseball prospects).

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"Elite", in your words, prospects just dont fall of the proverbial cliff when it comes to their very own team. Now, this could have been some sort of short sightedness on BBA's part, but I highly doubt an "Elite" prospect suddenly free falls without any sort of reason as to why. While Marisnick, the number two ranked prospect on the just released Jays top ten, an "Elite" five tool prospect, gets shafted when BBA has him ranked as the second best prospect? Something seems a bit strange over certain evaluations of the players who were traded, or the over rating of certain prospects who dont even rank in the top 10. Confusing, to say the least.
Elite in the words of any prospect evaluator who has ever seen him. Elite in that he was good enough to be a first round pick. Elite in that he was able to log some reasonable at-bats in the majors by his twenty first birthday. Elite by most measures and improving in the one area where he doesn't have at least a 70/80 skill-set (power, which is budding).

The fact that you didn't even know such an obvious reason for why Gose wasn't listed after he "graduated" from the rankings just proves how little you know about the Blue Jays organization. You honestly should stop embarrassing yourself here because this is getting pathetic.

I'll address the rest of your ignorance after I finish watching Lincoln.

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11-16-2012, 08:37 PM
  #390
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I wonder if this was the White Sox instead of the Jays what the reaction would be.

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11-16-2012, 10:05 PM
  #391
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Two power pitchers who have yet to learn control to go along with their potential.

A catcher made of glass who at 23 is getting up there in age for a prospect..

Syndergaard has pretty good control especially considering he throws in mid to high 90s.


As for D'Arnaud he had back problems in 2010, was healthy in 2011 and had a freak injury in 2012 when 2nd baseman landed on him.

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11-16-2012, 10:08 PM
  #392
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Anyone who knows anything about baseball knows the Jays got the much better of this deal and Loria simply did it to cut salary and get his share of the profit share.

Quit taking the bait, Jays fans.

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11-16-2012, 10:20 PM
  #393
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use your ignore list, guys. martini is really nothing more than a troll.

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11-16-2012, 11:23 PM
  #394
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A real troll could get the same amount of responses while writing 1/4 as much in each post though

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11-17-2012, 12:21 AM
  #395
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http://web.stagram.com/n/lamelaza_7/

Does anyone speak Spanish? I think this is Jose Reyes' instagram account and he has some comments in Spanish regarding the Blue Jays

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11-17-2012, 12:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMicrowave View Post
http://web.stagram.com/n/lamelaza_7/

Does anyone speak Spanish? I think this is Jose Reyes' instagram account and he has some comments in Spanish regarding the Blue Jays
In one of them he says "I can't believe it" with sad faces, but he didn't really comment on it too much, most of the comments are by others.

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11-17-2012, 06:51 AM
  #397
robert terwilliger
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Originally Posted by theaub View Post
A real troll could get the same amount of responses while writing 1/4 as much in each post though
he's done so in the past, which was why he ended up on mine.

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11-17-2012, 08:22 AM
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I did lol about the Syndergaard "control problems" and "walks 5 players a game" He only walked like 30 people all season lol He has no problem with his control, Sanchez yes but not Noah.

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11-17-2012, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMicrowave View Post
http://web.stagram.com/n/lamelaza_7/

Does anyone speak Spanish? I think this is Jose Reyes' instagram account and he has some comments in Spanish regarding the Blue Jays
His avatar is already a Jays one, so I would say he's looking forward to it.

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11-17-2012, 10:12 AM
  #400
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blades of Glory View Post
As good as this deal looks for the Jays, I would think it is worth pointing out that it all depends on which version of Reyes and Johnson shows up. If it's the 2012 Reyes (2.8 WAR) and Johnson (3.2 WAR), it really isn't much of an upgrade over Yunel Escobar and whoever else the Jays would have had in the rotation. But if the 2011 Reyes and 2010 Johnson show up, the Jays might be the favorites in the AL East. OK, maybe not the favorites, but at least a good bet for a playoff spot.
The 2011 Reyes is the abnormality. He has been nothing but an egima his entire career.

a greedy an selfish one too.

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