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Prospects Discuss hockey prospects from all over the world and the NHL Draft.

LW John Gaudreau - Boston College, HE (2011, 104th overall, Calgary)

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Old
11-12-2012, 11:58 PM
  #201
smitty10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashasx View Post
Back up this claim with facts.
Sure.

Looking at the 2007/2008 season here are all players listed under 6'0 in the top 20 scorers in their respective league and their height. Bolded denotes a player who has succeeded in the NHL:

WHL:

2. Colin Long- 5'10
3. Colton Yellow Horn- 5'9
4. Tyler Ennis- 5'8
5. Steve DaSilva- 5'10
8. Dan Gendur- 5'10
10. Oscar Moller- 5'10
12. Jason Reese- 5'10
13. Jason Bast- 5'9
18. Kruise Reddick- 5'9
20. Brandon Campos- 5'10

Note: this top 20 includes Mark Santorelli (1), Jordan Eberle (15).

OHL:

1. Jusin Azevedo- 5'7
6. Chris Terry- 5'10
7. Jack Combs- 5'9
8. Mike Swift- 5'8
11. Justin DiBenedetto- 5'11
12. John Hughes- 5'10
20. Adam Perry- 5'10

Note: this top 20 includes John Tavares (3), Luca Caputi (4), Steven Stamkos (5), Dustin Jeffrey (9), Josh Bailey (10), Matt Beleskey (13), Cody Hodgson (17), Taylor Hall (18).

QMJHL:

1. Mathieu Perreault- 5'10
2. Claude Giroux- 5'11
3. Francis Pare- 5'9
5. Dean Ouellet- 5'10
6. Chris DiDomenico- 5'10
8. Francois Bouchard- 5'11
9. Brett Morisson- 5'10
11. Toby Lafrance- 5'8
12. Stefano Giliati- 5'10
13. Cedric McNicoll- 5'10
15. Kelsey Tessier- 5'8
16. Tomy Joly- 5'10
17. Dany Masse- 5'10
19. Benjamin Breault- 5'10
20. Scott Howes- 5'11

Note: top 20 includes Jakub Voracek (4)

NCAA

1. Nathan Gerbe- 5'5
3. Chad Kolarik- 5'11
5. Ryan Lasch- 5'9
6. Simon Lambert- 5'11
7. Joe Whitney- 5'7
8. Ben Smith- 5'10
12. Vince Rocco- 5'10
13. Pete MacArthur- 5'10
14. Garrett Roe- 5'8
15. T.J. Oshie- 5'11
16. Chris Margott- 5'10
19. Tim Kennedy- 5'10
20. Mike Radja- 5'11

Note: top 20 includes Ryan Jones (9), Andreas Nodl (17)

Past Hobey Baker award winners in last 10 years:

2012- Jack Connolly- 5'8
2011- Andy Miele- 5'8
2007- Ryan Duncan- 5'6
2005- Marty Sertich- 5'8
2003- Peter Sejna- 5'10

Note: last 10 includes Blake Geoffrion, Matt Gilroy, Matt Carle, Jordan Leopold

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11-13-2012, 12:21 AM
  #202
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I fail to see a discernible pattern that favours smaller players. Are 16-20 year olds, on average, smaller than NHLers? Yeah. The average height for CHLers is more than 3 inches shorter than NHLers. You've listed a number of 5'10" and even 5'11" players. I certainly would not call them undersized in an amateur league.

And again, you have to look deeper than just stats.

Example, in 07/08, 5'6" Joe Whitney played with the highest scoring player in the NCAA, Gerbe (who has become a servicable NHLer). After Gerbe moved on to the AHL, Whitney's point total dropped from 51 to 15. Gaudreau is not riding the coattails of other players.

And again, many of them were overagers. But this is not to say all of them fit my argument. Justin Azevedo led the OHL in scoring in his last year of amateur hockey (not an overager). So indeed, there are few players who are not overagers that just couldn't find a fit in pro hockey. Obviously the majority of these listed players never amounted to anything, but a number of them, such as Ennis, who have performed well and put up good numbers at every stage in their career, have shown that they have the skill required to compensate for their lack of size.

So yes, the argument that smaller players are at a disadvantage is correct. Though this was never in question.

My proposal is that the small players who have performed at every level, who were not overagers when they led their leagues in scoring, have a fair chance of becoming everyday NHLers.

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Old
11-13-2012, 12:26 AM
  #203
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I've seen em both and I think Grimaldi is more skilled. Grimaldi is stuck with a couple 3rd line freshmen to spread the talent through the lineup so that explains the difference in point totals. Can't wait for wjc time to see em both in action on the same sheet.

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11-13-2012, 12:48 AM
  #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
But he isn't, he is incredibly small and slight.

Even Kreider only saw his stock really sky rocket with his 18 game performance in the NHL playoffs.

Going into the year the 6'3" 220 lb speedster was ranked around 20th.

Gaudreau would need a Forsberg type of WJC performance to get into the top 20 IMO.

Even with his rookie season last year at BC and the scouts seeing his skill set his size and weight still keep him out of most top 100 lists never mind "one of the top prospects in the world discussion."
Haha, what? It was Kreider this, Kreider that for the last two years from Rangers fans. He was always a top prospect. And the facts are that Gaudreau was one point behind Kreider's Junior season as a freshman!

And at this point, Gaudreau's size hasn't hampered him at all. He's out competing 6'3-230 pound, 24 year old defensemen, when we were all told he couldn't sustain his USHL production in the NCAA. It's no guarantee he'll be in the NHL, but to dismiss him for his size at this point is just foolish.

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Old
11-13-2012, 02:35 AM
  #205
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I completely agree that Flames fans need to cool their expectations for this guy and I am a flames fan who owns a "Gaudreauby Baker" shirt.

He is a nice prospect with very good offensive skill.

Players his size are rarely successful in the NHL, those that are are the exception not the rule

If people are patient with him does he have a decent chance at being an NHLer? Yes

Is he one of the best prospects in the world? Not a chance

If Johnny Gaudreau becomes an above average second liner in the NHL, flames fans should rejoice. Excellent use of a 4th round pick.


One thing I will state is there is a massive difference between undersized players that accomplish what Johnny is at a freshman level, than those who do it later in their college careers. Gaudreau is following a Gerbe type career arc and that is an encouraging sign.

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11-13-2012, 02:43 AM
  #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FytinSioux View Post
I've seen em both and I think Grimaldi is more skilled. Grimaldi is stuck with a couple 3rd line freshmen to spread the talent through the lineup so that explains the difference in point totals. Can't wait for wjc time to see em both in action on the same sheet.
It's interesting how two people can see something completely different. I've seen Grimaldi play many times, and would say Johnny is "WAY MORE" skilled. (not this isn't homerism... this is actually objective.)

This isn't saying Grimaldi isn't skilled, he is, but not nearly on the same level as Gaudreau...

Grimaldi is fierce, gritty, aggressive back checker, and surprisingly strong for his size. Grimaldi has fantastic speed and leg strength that he uses to his advantage (miles better than Gaudreau)... Besides size/nationality Johnny and Rocco are completely different players.. It's not even a good comparison (especially if we are claiming Rocco is "more" skilled.)

I'm not attacking you, I recognize that two people can have different opinions. Just a little baffled by your comment

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11-13-2012, 02:58 AM
  #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FytinSioux View Post
I've seen em both and I think Grimaldi is more skilled. Grimaldi is stuck with a couple 3rd line freshmen to spread the talent through the lineup so that explains the difference in point totals. Can't wait for wjc time to see em both in action on the same sheet.
Define skill. If you mean as an all around player I can see potential merit to your argument, if you mean hands or puck skills then you're talking out of your ass because Gaudreau was far more skilled in that area then Bartschi. And I don't think there is any debate about who is more skilled between Grimaldi and Bartschi.

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11-13-2012, 03:00 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Double Dion View Post
Define skill. If you mean as an all around player I can see potential merit to your argument, if you mean hands or puck skills then you're talking out of your ass.
I wish I could have summed it up in two sentences.

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11-13-2012, 03:34 AM
  #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashasx View Post
Back up this claim with facts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty10 View Post
Sure.

...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashasx View Post
And again, you have to look deeper than just stats.
Well, what do you want then?

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11-13-2012, 03:51 AM
  #210
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Well, what do you want then?
Facts != stats and only stats.

Read my posts. Not hard.

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Old
11-13-2012, 06:02 AM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashasx View Post
Facts != stats and only stats.

Read my posts. Not hard.
My opinion is more valid than your opinion! herp-derp

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11-13-2012, 11:46 AM
  #212
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Originally Posted by zoA View Post
My opinion is more valid than your opinion! herp-derp
I didn't know pointing out how players are overagers was an opinion. Clearly you didn't read all my posts.

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11-13-2012, 10:28 PM
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Dion View Post
Define skill. If you mean as an all around player I can see potential merit to your argument, if you mean hands or puck skills then you're talking out of your ass because Gaudreau was far more skilled in that area then Bartschi. And I don't think there is any debate about who is more skilled between Grimaldi and Bartschi.
I meant more all around. Skill I guess was a bad word. Gaudreau no doubt has more offensive talent. Grimaldi in my mind is a more rounded player. Seems to be a little more defensively aware in his own end and speed kills in any league. Both a looking like very solid prospects at the moment.

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11-13-2012, 11:36 PM
  #214
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Gaudreau named Hockey East POTW.

Quote:

BOSTON, MA -- On Monday, Hockey East announced Calgary Flames prospect Johnny Gaudreau has been named the Athletic Republic Player Of The Week.

Gaudreau scored three times in wins over No. 8 Notre Dame and No. 12 BU, including the game-winner in each of two victories over ranked opponents. Gaudreau notched his first multi-goal game of the season on Friday vs. the Fighting Irish at Conte Forum. He finished the weekend with eight shots, a +2 rating and extended his point scoring streak to nine games.

The Carney's Point, NJ native has scored seven times this season with five of those markers being game-winners. He leads the nation in that category. The 19 year-old leads Boston College in scoring with 12 points in nine games.

Gaudreau's fellow Flames prospect and Boston College teammate Bill Arnold was named one of the Hockey East Weekly Top Performers. Arnold tallied two points (1 goal, 1 assist) and a team-high +3 rating in the two-game weekend sweep of Notre Dame and BU.

Arnold sits third in team scoring with 10 points (4 goals, 6 assists) in nine games.

Boston College was named the Hockey East Team Of The Week for their outstanding performances this past weekend. The Eagles picked up two victories vs. Top-15 opponents on the week, beginning on Friday with a 3-1 win vs. No. 8 Notre Dame and followed that up with a 4-2 road win at No. 12 archrival Boston University on Sunday. BC finished the weekend 11-for-12 (91.6%) on the penalty kill.
from http://flames.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=645489

9 game point streak, still going steady for Johnny G.

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11-14-2012, 12:03 AM
  #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superhakan View Post
I completely agree that Flames fans need to cool their expectations for this guy and I am a flames fan who owns a "Gaudreauby Baker" shirt.

He is a nice prospect with very good offensive skill.

Players his size are rarely successful in the NHL, those that are are the exception not the rule

If people are patient with him does he have a decent chance at being an NHLer? Yes

Is he one of the best prospects in the world? Not a chance

If Johnny Gaudreau becomes an above average second liner in the NHL, flames fans should rejoice. Excellent use of a 4th round pick.


One thing I will state is there is a massive difference between undersized players that accomplish what Johnny is at a freshman level, than those who do it later in their college careers. Gaudreau is following a Gerbe type career arc and that is an encouraging sign.
Bingo

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11-14-2012, 01:38 AM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Ashasx View Post
I didn't know pointing out how players are overagers was an opinion. Clearly you didn't read all my posts.
I think you're completely bang on. Don't let the 12 year olds bother you.

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11-14-2012, 01:49 AM
  #217
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Originally Posted by FytinSioux View Post
I meant more all around. Skill I guess was a bad word. Gaudreau no doubt has more offensive talent. Grimaldi in my mind is a more rounded player. Seems to be a little more defensively aware in his own end and speed kills in any league. Both a looking like very solid prospects at the moment.
Fair enough. Just terminology I guess. Gaudreau isn't particularly fast, but he is quick from what I saw. I haven't ever watched Grimaldi live, so I can't comment too much on him.

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11-14-2012, 11:11 AM
  #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superhakan View Post
I completely agree that Flames fans need to cool their expectations for this guy and I am a flames fan who owns a "Gaudreauby Baker" shirt.

He is a nice prospect with very good offensive skill.

Players his size are rarely successful in the NHL, those that are are the exception not the rule

If people are patient with him does he have a decent chance at being an NHLer? Yes

Is he one of the best prospects in the world? Not a chance

If Johnny Gaudreau becomes an above average second liner in the NHL, flames fans should rejoice. Excellent use of a 4th round pick.


One thing I will state is there is a massive difference between undersized players that accomplish what Johnny is at a freshman level, than those who do it later in their college careers. Gaudreau is following a Gerbe type career arc and that is an encouraging sign.
Good summary, you're right. I do think that Johnny does have that high end clip that guys like Gerbe didn't even at the college level. Time will tell though.

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11-14-2012, 12:38 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by Double Dion View Post
Fair enough. Just terminology I guess. Gaudreau isn't particularly fast, but he is quick from what I saw. I haven't ever watched Grimaldi live, so I can't comment too much on him.
Gaudreau's best asset in his skating is his agility and how he can go side to side without hardly losing any speed.

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Old
11-14-2012, 02:19 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by Ashasx View Post
I fail to see a discernible pattern that favours smaller players. Are 16-20 year olds, on average, smaller than NHLers? Yeah. The average height for CHLers is more than 3 inches shorter than NHLers. You've listed a number of 5'10" and even 5'11" players. I certainly would not call them undersized in an amateur league.

And again, you have to look deeper than just stats.

Example, in 07/08, 5'6" Joe Whitney played with the highest scoring player in the NCAA, Gerbe (who has become a servicable NHLer). After Gerbe moved on to the AHL, Whitney's point total dropped from 51 to 15. Gaudreau is not riding the coattails of other players.

And again, many of them were overagers. But this is not to say all of them fit my argument. Justin Azevedo led the OHL in scoring in his last year of amateur hockey (not an overager). So indeed, there are few players who are not overagers that just couldn't find a fit in pro hockey. Obviously the majority of these listed players never amounted to anything, but a number of them, such as Ennis, who have performed well and put up good numbers at every stage in their career, have shown that they have the skill required to compensate for their lack of size.

So yes, the argument that smaller players are at a disadvantage is correct. Though this was never in question.

My proposal is that the small players who have performed at every level, who were not overagers when they led their leagues in scoring, have a fair chance of becoming everyday NHLers.
Those point totals are just indicative of a bigger issue with stats scouting. Player's that put up high point totals do not always translate that lower league success to higher league success. That's not something that's restricted to smaller players alone, but is something that exists for every player.

That's a major reason why the whole "oh he's small, so we shouldn't consider his high point total indicative of him being a good prospect" as faulty. You have to look at more than stats and look at things like linemates, how the player gets said points, talents said player has, competition, etc etc etc.

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11-16-2012, 09:27 PM
  #221
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Just finished watching the BC game tonight.

2 assists for Gaudreau. Everytime he has the puck he makes something happen. Magic hands, and vision. His assist on the game winner was a thing of beauty. This kid is special.

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11-16-2012, 10:14 PM
  #222
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He just keeps producing, he has extremely high talent.

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11-17-2012, 01:27 AM
  #223
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Would you say he might end up similar to Ennis?

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11-17-2012, 01:43 AM
  #224
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Would you say he might end up similar to Ennis?
As in production? Besides the "small" factor, I see them as different styles.

He reminds me of Pat Kane... (not saying he will be like pat kane.. just the way he plays.)

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11-17-2012, 10:21 AM
  #225
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As in production? Besides the "small" factor, I see them as different styles.

He reminds me of Pat Kane... (not saying he will be like pat kane.. just the way he plays.)
Agreed.

Tyler Ennis is just a much more "explosive" player.

Gaudreau just amazes with hockey sense and skill.

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