HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk
National Hockey League Talk Discuss NHL players, teams, games, and the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

Everybody's talking at me; I don't hear a word they're saying (CBA/Lockout XXIX)

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-17-2012, 12:34 AM
  #676
StreetSharks
#19 Joe Trollton
 
StreetSharks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Frisco
Posts: 5,473
vCash: 327
NHLPA are full of morons and I'm enjoying watching them starting to panic now.

I hope that union gets CRUSHED.

StreetSharks is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 12:42 AM
  #677
RockLobster
Moderator
Beatles Guru
 
RockLobster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Kansas
Country: Germany
Posts: 11,751
vCash: 905
I've been at work all damn day...would anyone be able to update me on why people are believing that the PA may be starting their usual infighting? I would greatly appreciate a "Cliff's Notes" version.

RockLobster is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 12:44 AM
  #678
kfan22
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 893
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
I've been at work all damn day...would anyone be able to update me on why people are believing that the PA may be starting their usual infighting? I would greatly appreciate a "Cliff's Notes" version.
see post #649 in this thread

kfan22 is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 12:46 AM
  #679
sixgunsdad
Registered User
 
sixgunsdad's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 134
vCash: 500
The PA is pretty much screwed if thy want to get paid and finish out their careers. If they accept the last offer on the table they may have some avenues of relief on contract issues and should push for extending the CBA agreement to 8-10 years. Hopefully hockey regains its growth thereby increasing HRR revenues providing some increase to the players over the life of the agreement. One thing is certain and that is we will go through this again on the next renewal unless TV contracts grow exorbitantly.

sixgunsdad is online now  
Old
11-17-2012, 12:48 AM
  #680
Bourne Endeavor
Moderator
( _)>⌐■-■ (⌐■_■)
 
Bourne Endeavor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Country: Canada
Posts: 22,728
vCash: 13357
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
When is the league going to start negotiating?
When the PA starts making offers based around their proposals and not just resubmits the same one five times.

Bourne Endeavor is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 12:51 AM
  #681
Fugu
Administrator
HFBoards
 
Fugu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: WA
Country:
Posts: 29,179
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
I've been at work all damn day...would anyone be able to update me on why people are believing that the PA may be starting their usual infighting? I would greatly appreciate a "Cliff's Notes" version.
There is no infighting being reported by any legit news outlets.

Fugu is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 12:52 AM
  #682
RockLobster
Moderator
Beatles Guru
 
RockLobster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Kansas
Country: Germany
Posts: 11,751
vCash: 905
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
There is no infighting.
Perhaps the wrong choice of words on my part...but why some people have implied some sort of bickering?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kfan22 View Post
see post #649 in this thread
Much appreciated, thank you!

RockLobster is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 12:53 AM
  #683
Fugu
Administrator
HFBoards
 
Fugu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: WA
Country:
Posts: 29,179
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
Perhaps the wrong choice of words on my part...but why some people have implied some sort of bickering?

The last bickering that was reported was the shouting match between Leipold and Hainsey, others may have raised their voices too.

Fugu is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 12:56 AM
  #684
RockLobster
Moderator
Beatles Guru
 
RockLobster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Kansas
Country: Germany
Posts: 11,751
vCash: 905
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
The last bickering that was reported was the shouting match between Leipold and Hainsey, others may have raised their voices too.
Well Fugu...you've got me then, lol, I don't know the right word choice to use...but if what I read in post # 649 is all accurate, I'd call that some form of bickering!

RockLobster is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 01:01 AM
  #685
Boltsfan2029
Registered User
 
Boltsfan2029's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In deleted threads
Country: United States
Posts: 6,281
vCash: 698
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slads View Post
I think a good concession that the NHL should give to the players is a fully paid introductory course in economics when they are drafted. I'm not being facetious either; something that allows players to be better decision makers would benefit everyone.
I've long said the union should have mandatory investment and financial planning classes. The union is supposedly looking after its members, seems that would be a very good place to start.

Does the league/union offer any kind of IRA or other plan which includes financial contributions by the players (to their own accounts)?


Last edited by Boltsfan2029: 11-17-2012 at 01:08 AM.
Boltsfan2029 is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 01:02 AM
  #686
Freudian
Patty likes beef
 
Freudian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Sweden
Posts: 28,728
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by sixgunsdad View Post
First my disclaimer; I'm not on any side here.

Wouldn't it be ironic if the players cave and take the leagues offer and in 2 years the TV deal with the NHL triples giving the players a ridiculous amount of HRR with the owners left with wishing they had taken Fehr's d-linked proposal
The owners would be fine with that because it would mean their revenue grows. That's the point of linkage.

What they won't accept is something like Fehr's proposal and 1% HRR growth in the coming six years and having to go into a CBA negotiation 2018 where the NHLPA has 59% of HRR that they feel they have to defend.

Freudian is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 01:03 AM
  #687
Boltsfan2029
Registered User
 
Boltsfan2029's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In deleted threads
Country: United States
Posts: 6,281
vCash: 698
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
When is the league going to start negotiating?
God knows the league has been trying. Unfortunately, the union has to participate, one side can't negotiate by itself.

Boltsfan2029 is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 01:21 AM
  #688
rdawg1234
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,588
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
God knows the league has been trying. Unfortunately, the union has to participate, one side can't negotiate by itself.
I have a feeling that may change in a week or two when they realize the NHL isnt coming back with a better offer.

Do they end the damage now, or go all out, toss the season and attack the cap?

What even happens in that case?

rdawg1234 is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 01:24 AM
  #689
kihei
Registered User
 
kihei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,725
vCash: 4667
I'm far more sympathetic with the players than the owners, but Bettman's suggestion for a two week moratorium is a brilliant move. Kind of gives the players a wake up call about who is more desperate to make a deal.

kihei is online now  
Old
11-17-2012, 01:29 AM
  #690
McRib
2nd Rate Fan
 
McRib's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Saskatoon
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,425
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdawg1234 View Post
I have a feeling that may change in a week or two when they realize the NHL isnt coming back with a better offer.

Do they end the damage now, or go all out, toss the season and attack the cap?

What even happens in that case?
One of two things.

1) NHLPA membership voices its displeasure over Fehr's handling of the negotiations, as they're likely to lose everything and get a lot less back... probably a less favourable CBA than 2004/05.

or

2) Boom. NHL takes guaranteed contracts off the table, and would say that we're still talking about this at this time next year.

My hope is that the NHLPA puts pressure on Fehr to get them on the ice sooner.

McRib is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 01:34 AM
  #691
rdawg1234
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,588
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoobs View Post
One of two things.

1) NHLPA membership voices its displeasure over Fehr's handling of the negotiations, as they're likely to lose everything and get a lot less back... probably a less favourable CBA than 2004/05.

or

2) Boom. NHL takes guaranteed contracts off the table, and would say that we're still talking about this at this time next year.

My hope is that the NHLPA puts pressure on Fehr to get them on the ice sooner.
Neither of these plans will gain them more money imo. Anything like attacking the cap will result in at least the partial loss of another season.

Smartest financial thing for them to do is to directly respond to the NHL's propsal, lose a couple hundred mil but still gain alot in the long run. I really dont understand Fehr's gameplan, the NHL isn't just gonna sit around and accept them taking away the cap.

rdawg1234 is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 01:51 AM
  #692
McRib
2nd Rate Fan
 
McRib's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Saskatoon
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,425
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdawg1234 View Post
Neither of these plans will gain them more money imo. Anything like attacking the cap will result in at least the partial loss of another season.

Smartest financial thing for them to do is to directly respond to the NHL's propsal, lose a couple hundred mil but still gain alot in the long run. I really dont understand Fehr's gameplan, the NHL isn't just gonna sit around and accept them taking away the cap.
I think his plan was to get the NHL negotiating off of the NHLPA's proposals. Hence why the NHLPA has pretty much submitted the same proposal again and again. Once they're negotiating off of the NHLPA's ideas, it's a lot easier to get what you want. They will start making progress once the NHLPA picks an NHL proposal and goes off of that. In fact, I think the NHL would be a lot more willing to move on certain points if they did negotiate off of an NHL proposal.

I really think that Fehr underestimated the NHL and Bettman, though. The MLBPA was able to do what it was because Selig and the owners had a different structure. And I will admit that the MLB has benefitted from the systems that Fehr helped develop (some teams do, at least.) But the NHL isn't MLB, and the revenue streams that contribute to the successes of the MLB system don't exist to the same degree in the NHL (and likely never will.)

When the time is right and pressure is applied by the union, Fehr will pick his favourite NHL proposal and put in his two cents on that. Then negotiations will really happen.

McRib is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 02:15 AM
  #693
Freudian
Patty likes beef
 
Freudian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Sweden
Posts: 28,728
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoobs View Post
I think his plan was to get the NHL negotiating off of the NHLPA's proposals. Hence why the NHLPA has pretty much submitted the same proposal again and again. Once they're negotiating off of the NHLPA's ideas, it's a lot easier to get what you want. They will start making progress once the NHLPA picks an NHL proposal and goes off of that. In fact, I think the NHL would be a lot more willing to move on certain points if they did negotiate off of an NHL proposal.

I really think that Fehr underestimated the NHL and Bettman, though. The MLBPA was able to do what it was because Selig and the owners had a different structure. And I will admit that the MLB has benefitted from the systems that Fehr helped develop (some teams do, at least.) But the NHL isn't MLB, and the revenue streams that contribute to the successes of the MLB system don't exist to the same degree in the NHL (and likely never will.)

When the time is right and pressure is applied by the union, Fehr will pick his favourite NHL proposal and put in his two cents on that. Then negotiations will really happen.
I expect NHLPA will move to NHLs proposals but demand $600M in make whole, make a big song and dance number in front of the cameras that the players contracts have to be paid in full.

Then perhaps there will be a path forward.

Freudian is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 02:19 AM
  #694
SJeasy
Registered User
 
SJeasy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Jose
Country: United States
Posts: 12,282
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoobs View Post
I think his plan was to get the NHL negotiating off of the NHLPA's proposals. Hence why the NHLPA has pretty much submitted the same proposal again and again. Once they're negotiating off of the NHLPA's ideas, it's a lot easier to get what you want. They will start making progress once the NHLPA picks an NHL proposal and goes off of that. In fact, I think the NHL would be a lot more willing to move on certain points if they did negotiate off of an NHL proposal.

I really think that Fehr underestimated the NHL and Bettman, though. The MLBPA was able to do what it was because Selig and the owners had a different structure. And I will admit that the MLB has benefitted from the systems that Fehr helped develop (some teams do, at least.) But the NHL isn't MLB, and the revenue streams that contribute to the successes of the MLB system don't exist to the same degree in the NHL (and likely never will.)

When the time is right and pressure is applied by the union, Fehr will pick his favourite NHL proposal and put in his two cents on that. Then negotiations will really happen.
Fehr has actually achieved some delinkage with the concessions on Make Whole. If anything his purpose is to push that farther. In the other thread, it mentions escrow which is the PA member's bogeyman in the expired CBA.

IMO, it is in the interest of both parties to remove escrow from the equation. I don't think either side has really pushed the idea far enough. To do it, they could take out the 5% escalator and instead of insisting on making the league whole for the year, reduce the cap for the next season by the amount of overpay or increase it by the amount of underpay. The first time overpay happens would be a hardship for the that class of UFAs, but it would remove the escrow irritant. It is a league concession as they would lose one year of use on the money. This system would also get the players face value on their contracts.

SJeasy is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 02:44 AM
  #695
Crows*
 
Crows*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,307
vCash: 500
If the rumor is true that fehr is seeking advice from goodenow. Well that's hilarious. Considering goodenow is hated amongst most players.

Hmmm maybe the league planted that rumor.

Crows* is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 02:53 AM
  #696
Ziggy Stardust
Master Debater
 
Ziggy Stardust's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 30,924
vCash: 500
Seeing agents and players attack reporters on twitter just goes to show you the level of ineptitude these imbeciles have. Their misdirected attacks on the media just goes to show the mentality that they have: it's them against the world, and everyone who opposes them is wrong.

Ziggy Stardust is online now  
Old
11-17-2012, 02:55 AM
  #697
KEEROLE Vatanen
Failures Of Fenwick
 
KEEROLE Vatanen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 16,728
vCash: 500
The players are just to prideful/stubborn for their own good, NHL owners get rich by being business sharks, players get rich by PLAYING it's very simple....the less players play, the more they lose money, meanwhile many of these owners have other businesses/stocks that make them money. I hope fighting over a small percentage is gonna be worth a half billion to these players

KEEROLE Vatanen is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 03:01 AM
  #698
billybudd
5 Mike Rupps
 
billybudd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 9,673
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sixgunsdad View Post
First my disclaimer; I'm not on any side here.

Wouldn't it be ironic if the players cave and take the leagues offer and in 2 years the TV deal with the NHL triples giving the players a ridiculous amount of HRR with the owners left with wishing they had taken Fehr's d-linked proposal

Actually, if the TV deal tripled or something, that doesn't represent an actual problem in terms of employee compensation.

TV deal tripling would represent a rising tide, so to speak. The amount the Islanders (or whomever) payroll increased would be in a linear proportion to their revenues. Simplest way to put it: if you told Charles Wang the cap was going up $10 million but he gets $20 million more from NBC, he takes that tradeoff without even thinking about it.

Reason the Predators are hurting (if they're even hurting...despite my feeling that the PA has been acting against their own interests for months, I'm very skeptical about how much the teams who say they're losing money are actually losing and how much is a paper loss) is that they grow at 2% per year and the maple leafs grow at, like, 8%.

Bigger TV deal grows every team's revenue by a flat, identical value. NHL can absorb a near-infinite amount of that type of growth without needing to restructure revenues.

billybudd is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 03:02 AM
  #699
burf
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 539
vCash: 500
People saying that the NHLPA needs to offer its members an introductory course in economics have obviously never taken an introductory level course in economics. If they had, they'd have realized that early-level economics courses generally give you no practical knowledge at all. And I'm saying this as someone with a master's degree in economics.

A few basic finance courses, on the other hand, would probably be useful. But then again, the same thing would apparently be useful to a lot of posters here on both sides of the debate.


e: And as for the TV deal tripling thing - well, that's actually probably going to happen in the next few years. Both TSN and CBC are coming up for renewal, and they're both likely to pay at least double what they paid last time around. However, you have to keep in mind that the NHL is mostly a gate-driven league, and those national TV deals don't represent a significant portion of overall league revenue. Hell, in the context of TV deals, the individual deals with the teams themselves (think Sportsnet, MSG, RDS, TSN Jets, etc.), are probably worth at least as much, as a whole, as those national deals.


Last edited by burf: 11-17-2012 at 03:08 AM.
burf is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 03:10 AM
  #700
Freudian
Patty likes beef
 
Freudian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Sweden
Posts: 28,728
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Seeing agents and players attack reporters on twitter just goes to show you the level of ineptitude these imbeciles have. Their misdirected attacks on the media just goes to show the mentality that they have: it's them against the world, and everyone who opposes them is wrong.
I think there have been a handful of players that have said really stupid things. Then there are a bunch that express frustration that there is no deal yet, which is slightly stupid since it's Fehr that's obstructing the process.

I have no doubt most players realize it's just a business and not personal and they keep quiet and prepare for the season.

Freudian is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:15 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.