We'll see how it is when the mall is finished, but I still don't think that will be enough to sustain everything that is there. Maybe half of what is there now. And what is there now still isn't the capacity of that place, lots of empty suites right now even.
Tanger is opening today (11/15) with several empty store fronts in it as well.
Tanger is opening today (11/15) with several empty store fronts in it as well.
Heh, interesting timing. Maybe I'll have to go check it out. Though just reading what is in there doesn't make it sound like a destination.
Also an interesting issue is, while they are really close to each other Westgate and the shopping center aren't exactly back to back. I imagine that presents some logistical issues for a lot of shoppers who may just decide to eat elsewhere before or after.
I'm sure business will pick up but not nearly as much if Tanger was located right behind the movie theater for example.
Having a shopping mall next to a movie theater and a bar district does make some sense, doesn't it? I mean it seems to work fine for the Chandler Fashion area and the Scottsdale fashion area, doesn't it? Both are right up against busy freeways and both seem busy frequently. If the arena also has 20 events a year (at least), is that enough to sustain that entertainment district? I'm not sure why it wouldn't be. Especially with the football stadium. I understand that nobody goes shopping because of football games, but I mean, as a whole, there seems reason enough to have plenty of traffic in and around that area. At least as much reason as Chandler Fashion. Then again Chandler isn't on the hook for an enormous state of the art hockey arena they just built and have no team for.
I've always felt the Coyotes leaving would be a death blow for Westgate, but I'm trying to see it from a different angle. Just playing a little Devil's Advocate, here.
Chandler Fashion and Scottsdale Fashion center are very very different from Westgate. They are both huge upscale malls surrounded by affluent neighborhoods with a ton of shopping, several anchor tenants in form of department stores, etc. It's an apples and oranges comparison for sure.
I can definitely understand the affluent community part, but aren't outlet malls a whole bunch of department stores in a row? Aren't they usually way the heck out in the boonies? Isn't buying last year's department store stock at a huge discount a pretty big draw?
I can definitely understand the affluent community part, but aren't outlet malls a whole bunch of department stores in a row? Aren't they usually way the heck out in the boonies? Isn't buying last year's department store stock at a huge discount a pretty big draw?
I don't know, I'm way, way out of my element.
I try not to get too caught up in the demographics on paper when it comes to business. Even in the rich areas there are stores that close down or not much in the way of stores in the rich areas period for that matter. It comes down more to spending habits than anything else. You can have business all you want in an area that has more buying power than the next area over. However, if people in those areas are a bunch of tight wads(which is usually what most rich people are) then your not going to make much money.
The outlet stores are about the products they sell. If there is quality and value, people will come. The freeway system we have in Maricopa County is good enough to make all the malls an acceptable drive for a good value/experience. The bars/restaurants in Westgate depend more on the events at the arena to draw huge crowds before, during and after the events. The theater gets consistent traffic but doesn't make a huge impact on the restaurants/bars. The outlet stores will be the same. Sure, they will help if they are popular enough to stay open but is that enough to save Westate without the Coyotes? Who knows. We have no hockey this year so I guess that question will get answered. And since no one really seems to want to close the ownership deal, maybe that question will become reality.
The only thing that looks certain is that it's time to start planning a Vegas trip with my season tickets refund.
I can definitely understand the affluent community part, but aren't outlet malls a whole bunch of department stores in a row? Aren't they usually way the heck out in the boonies? Isn't buying last year's department store stock at a huge discount a pretty big draw?
I don't know, I'm way, way out of my element.
Well first off no I wouldn't say they are all the same. An outlet mall is only as good as the products it carries and for relatively cheap prices. Look at the outlets in Casa Grande, they are a complete ghost town, hardly any stores even remain. Regardless, you didn't initially compare to outlets, you compared Westgate area to the 2 Fashion malls and those are very different. Those are not discount outlets, they are current "trend setting" (while it's true, I still hated typing that) shopping mall destinations. You don't go to either of the Fashion Centers to buy overstock, defects, weird sizes or **** people flat out didn't want at super cheap prices, it's exactly the opposite.
About the only way the outlets at Westgate could have enough pull to really help Westgate would be if they turned into the ones like they have in Cabazon but I highly highly doubt it! Even then it likely wouldn't matter because people travel to those to save money, not to splurge. If you owned a Wendy's in Westgate you'd be set but an actual restaurant, yeah I wouldn't hold my breath.
I think the biggest problem with Westgate is that without the Coyotes people outside of the immediate area just won't go there, it's just not enough of a destination. I can see the outlet helping it but without an anchor tenant, I don't think the businesses can survive.
Outlet malls aren't all about bargains or unwanted stock. rt had the general idea by mentioning they are usually in the 'boonies.' They are meant to be a chance for retailers to rent a space 2-3x larger than they would inside a mall like Chandler fashion square for the same price. A factor I think everyone is overlooking here is that there's basically no food at Tanger. Subway and a pretzel stand. That's definitely going to send people over to Westgate. If I'm iStar or whoever the hell is managing Westgate nowadays, I'd run free golf cars/shuttles from Tanger to where the restaurants are.
I'm not sure why we are trying to downplay 85 stores opening up right next to the failed Westgate. That's a huge vote of confidence for the area. Tanger is not in the business of losing money. They chose the spot for a reason and they're playing the long game here. If Glendale ever recovers, they're going to be in the money. Whether or not it's 'enough' to keep Westgate alive is kind of a moot point when the latter is less than half full. Of note is Puma. They dumped Westgate yet are returning with a store at Tanger.
Glendale will move on, with or without the Coyotes. We've got an openly hostile mayor now and a couple council members who want to torpedo this thing. They are a bunch of clueless morons, but that's where we are. I thought that, had they sealed the deal before or around the start of the season, everything would survive the courts and we'd have a team. It doesn't look that way now. The council and their sweetheart deal were the only reason Bettman stuck it out here and now they've turned. A new CBA would have to be mindblowingly appealing to small market teams for someone to salvage this. It doesn't look like that's really in the cards.
For the first time, I'm not really seeing a way out of this.
Aside from the fact that once again none of us now for sure if Jamison has the money or not, even if the city is going straight forward with the deal, it could be possible that Jamison got cold feet from this considering the CBA mess and uncertainty of the result of the new agreement.
What if it turns out that the players take the owners to the cleaners in next deal? It could be that the 1st deal agreed to by the City could not be enough with Jamison asking for more as a result. In addtion, the posssibility that the momentum in gaining new season ticket sales could take a hit in the near future with the lockout and many season ticket holders may not bother to renew as a result of another lockout.
Updates from new items that I can see (my interpretations could be wrong FYI):
1. Requirement to have 20 events with an average of 7,000 people in addition to hockey
2. Jamison pays all Operating Expenses in the manner required by Agreement (not new I dont think)
3. Requirement to replace all canceled games with new events
4. The rights to 5,500 parking spots are transferred to Jamison
5. Ads related to the parking areas are Jamison's to control but 15% of the revenue is transferred to Glendale
6. More than 30 events will result in Jamison getting a $500,000 bonus per "block", less than 30 Jamison gives Glendale $25,000 per event short.
7. Jamison has full control over the food...random requirement to have the same food options in the "Owners" suite and "City Owned" suite (wonder how long that stipulation took to negotiate).
8. Rights to negotiate issues were arena expenses are higher than expected and city help is needed.
9. City surcharge will be $2.75 a ticket for 5 years then its $3 (sorry not $40 Ken)
10. Capital fund from the City will include transfers of $500,000 per year into a CF account.
11. City can make repairs to the arena using the CF account.
12. Forces 40 games and all playoff games to be played in Glendale.
13. Comparable facilities to Jobing are: USAC, Nationwide Arena, and Xcel Energy Center.
14. Describes the chart of accounts that will be used in giving financial statements to Glendale.
15. Summary of the upgrades and replacement schedule is also provided.
Well that is everything that I saw as new or interesting. Some of it may be a rehash of the old stuff but you add this to June's information.
Last edited by naurutger: 11-16-2012 at 01:14 PM.
Reason: updates
Updates from new items that I can see (my interpretations could be wrong FYI):
1. Requirement to have 20 events with an average of 7,000 people in addition to hockey
2. Jamison pays all Operating Expenses in the manner required by Agreement (not new I dont think)
3. Requirement to replace all canceled games with new events
4. The rights to 5,500 parking spots are transferred to Jamison
5. Ads related to the parking areas are Jamison's to control but 15% of the revenue is transferred to Glendale
6. More than 30 events will result in Jamison getting a $500,000 bonus per "block", less than 30 Jamison gives Glendale $25,000 per event short.
7. Jamison has full control over the food...random requirement to have the same food options in the "Owners" suite and "City Owned" suite (wonder how long that stipulation took to negotiate).
So we aren't to expect a reduction in fees large enough to sway the new (skeptical or outright hostile) incoming Mayor/Council?
Good idea to ram through something the new council will hate?
The new group wont have voting powers for another 6 weeks or so. If it goes that long, its over before they vote on it. To me, this is it. I have already went this long without hockey and I see it going the way of the arena football league a few years ago. The NHL could come back but it will be a weak small league if its not soon....
I hate seeing the impact to the workers and the area's businesses. But I will take some sick satisfaction watching this council hire their buddies for $7 million a year while they produce nothing and it withers Westgate away. I also wonder what it could do to the Superbowl. I guess it would open more parking spots up.
Glendale moves forward with new Phoenix Coyotes deal
Quote:
The new deal has the city paying Jamison’s Arizona Arena Hockey Partners LLC $11 million by the end of June and then between $13 million and $18 million per year through the rest of the 20-year lease term.
Currently Tanger is a packed zoo.... and for two reasons. It's the start of the holiday shopping season and with grand openings you often have stores offering Black Friday type deals as an introduction.
Whether or not that kind of traffic will be sustained (and the 5M body traffic number becomes realistic) will be tested later on in the spring and summer of next year.
I'm not sure why we are trying to downplay 85 stores opening up right next to the failed Westgate. That's a huge vote of confidence for the area. Tanger is not in the business of losing money. They chose the spot for a reason and they're playing the long game here. If Glendale ever recovers, they're going to be in the money. Whether or not it's 'enough' to keep Westgate alive is kind of a moot point when the latter is less than half full. Of note is Puma. They dumped Westgate yet are returning with a store at Tanger.
The downplaying is in regards to it's ability to keep Westgate afloat without the Coyotes and I just don't see that happening. btw...the failed outlets in Casa Grande were Tanger, so while of course they don't want to lose money, they're far from a sure thing.
The downplaying is in regards to it's ability to keep Westgate afloat without the Coyotes and I just don't see that happening. btw...the failed outlets in Casa Grande were Tanger, so while of course they don't want to lose money, they're far from a sure thing.
I don't believe the outlets themselves will fail though. It's a very good location for that. The west side doesn't have a whole lot of places like it.
Currently Tanger is a packed zoo.... and for two reasons. It's the start of the holiday shopping season and with grand openings you often have stores offering Black Friday type deals as an introduction.
Whether or not that kind of traffic will be sustained (and the 5M body traffic number becomes realistic) will be tested later on in the spring and summer of next year.
I'm not an expert in measuring crowds, but to hit 5,000,000 you need about 13,700 each day. That's over 1000 per hour if you're open 12 hours a day. Seems like you could get that now because of the newness and holiday shopping season. I wouldn't think you'd get that mid week in the Summer months.
I'm not an expert in measuring crowds, but to hit 5,000,000 you need about 13,700 each day. That's over 1000 per hour if you're open 12 hours a day. Seems like you could get that now because of the newness and holiday shopping season. I wouldn't think you'd get that mid week in the Summer months.
Add to the mix a subsequent article in the AZR stated there are 3-4 other outlet malls (Tanger has one going in near Talking Stick, Premiere has one or two others) planned for Phoenix Metro.
I'm not an expert in measuring crowds, but to hit 5,000,000 you need about 13,700 each day. That's over 1000 per hour if you're open 12 hours a day. Seems like you could get that now because of the newness and holiday shopping season. I wouldn't think you'd get that mid week in the Summer months.
According to the National Retail federation, for many traditional retailers, the holiday season can represent "anywhere between 25-40% of their ANNUAL sales".
So maybe we should not expect the mall to get 13,700 every day or 1000 shoppers every hour, but maybe expect them to get 25-40% of their annual sales between now and New Years day... and if so, not see that as something shocking or unreal.
And to be clear, I have no idea if Tanger Outlet mall in Glendale will be making money in 3 years or a ghost town 50% vacant 6 years from today, or really care all that much either way other than I'm not going to root for them to fail.
