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Everybody's talking at me; I don't hear a word they're saying (CBA/Lockout XXIX)

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Old
11-17-2012, 04:16 AM
  #701
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
I think there have been a handful of players that have said really stupid things. Then there are a bunch that express frustration that there is no deal yet, which is slightly stupid since it's Fehr that's obstructing the process.

I have no doubt most players realize it's just a business and not personal and they keep quiet and prepare for the season.
The vast majority do that, and I respect them for it.

I kind of think less of the players that take it personally and send out personal attacks to the owners and flip out on twitter expecting sympathy from everyone.

Cant remember the specific player, but I recall one player tweeting about not wanting to take a cut/lose money and then posted his new high-end car right afterwards

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11-17-2012, 04:33 AM
  #702
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What players have mouthed off on twitter? I am looking for the comments now and I have only seen Prust's and Clowe's. Are there anymore? I can't even believe it has come to THIS. I dont know if I have ever seen this happen in any sport. Absolutely disgusting, you can really that all of the media and guys we love to follow like Bobby Mac,Dreger,Lebrun,Shannon,Russo,Brooks,KPD etc whoever is well respected that has been in this buisness for a long time are just outright SICK OF IT just as much or in some cases even more then us fans. Some of them won't even bother to discuss it and probably for their profession they must feel just ashamed to even be associated with this disgraceful league and players. It is just wrong when you have players attacking reporters.

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11-17-2012, 04:56 AM
  #703
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Finally a journalist that's willing to look at the economics in detail. Thank you, Russo.
Good read. So even if you assume the NHLPA will be sensible and pro-rate this season's salary, the sides are still well over $600 M apart for the following four seasons. If one don't think the NHLPA will be sensible we're looking at a difference of about $1 B over the next 5 seasons. Based on those numbers it's understandable why Daly doesn't think the sides are "close".

Quote:
In an email to the Star Tribune last night, Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly said: "I find it incredible that the Union is suggesting that we are somehow "close" to a deal. They have utterly refused to negotiate for months. They have made essentially one proposal -- five times. They continue to request a "guaranteed" Players Share as part of the next agreement and we repeatedly tell them maybe they should get a reality check. And in the mean time, maybe they can make their position clear to us on 50-50, on the make-whole and on Player Contracting issues."

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11-17-2012, 05:30 AM
  #704
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Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
Difference is most of the owners know something about business, accounting, etc etc, the players no nothing of this and get all their information from a guy who waddled his way back into the spot light looking for a war against sports owners once again.

and no the players do what they want based on what Fehr believes and tells them. Its quite different
The players are not that stupid, don't you think they've got friends, much family, advisors, agents, etc. that they consult with about the situation? Please for people to insinuate 3 times each page that the families etc. are that ignorant is preposterous.

No one here has answered why 80% of posters in this thread hate/blame the players. Most of the people here I've never seen comment on actual hockey in the NHL forum. Do you really love professional hockey or just here to spout blind hatred for the "imbecilic" players you supposedly care about watching play? Are you just jealous haters? Oh wait, you love the emblem on the sweater, not the players? As time passes new players fill that jersey, they make a team what it is. Players are not going to be taken advantage of like the 1950's.

It's impossible for players, who make an avereage of 2.5 mil a year and can only work 10 years, to be the greedy ones here. All they ask is for a shred of respect and some consolation as a sign of who truly is the NHL, just like a factory is run by its workers, a factory IS its workers. Why can't the owners bend just a little and get the fans back their games? It's not the players fault the owners are so cutthroat by not properly sharing revenues among themselves. Bettman and the owners make me sick.

Does anyone in the BOH even comprehend that a billionaire makes 1000 times that of a millionaire?? It's like I make 30,000 a year and you make 30 million, how can you not pay for our dinner? Owners should view their team as entertainment, If I pay $1500 a year for hockey a billionaire can can lose 50 million, that's fair right? It should be but in this sick world we glorify the sociopath mega-capitalists as heroes and philanthropists while demonizing a group of elite athletes that just want their fair share.

There is some bad blood brewing and I won't be suprised if there is no season. Why can't the blind, arrogant, greedy, filthy rich owners see how little they need to concede to get these boys playing again? I blame the owners for this lockout, 100%. Sometimes I feel I could care less if there is an NHL ever. I wouldn't play for these fat pigs. The owners don't deserve to be involved in this league.

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11-17-2012, 05:52 AM
  #705
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Freudian, firstly, if you are going to use terms like givining up or give concessions -- you need a starting point. And that goes both ways.

You cannot seriously tell me that what has been the case the last 6 years is not what the parties are negotating off. Albeit at diffrent degrees, but still. I mean if Fehr would put a new issue on the table, that in relation to the old CBA was more favorable to the players, Bettman undoubtedly would see that as a "concession" and ask for something in return. It seriously just don't work any other way. If Bettman wants major concessions, because that is what he wants, he needs to motivate them, and he has of course also tried to do that. Its nothing wrong with that, but lets call a spade a spade. You and I are both Swedes, we have a simular situation here in Sweden with the Scandinavian airline SAS. The owners of the airline have given the unions an option to take a 25% pay cut or the owners say that they will bankrupt the airline. They say its a necessity, they can't compete with the low-price rivals and they note that the high salaries in SAS was created during the monopoly era of the 80s. But, they are not saying "eeeehhh what you made SEK 100.000 a month yesterday, so what? You will now get SEK 75.000 that is not a concession". The CEO, Rickard Gustafson, instead said quote "I know that we demand alot from our employees".

Your position (hey they start from scratch, to think anything else is "completely bizarre") on this issue is just not in touch with reality. There is no way any union ever in the world would accept that. This is not like a unique position by Fehr, anyone that ever leads the PA would of course be of the same position on this as Fehr is (if we give back something that we had previously, its a concession). And vise versa for Bettman. Of course.

Secondly, lets be honest here, the two parties are within spitting distance of each other on core economics. It needs some repeating, because anything else is BS (from either side):

The two parties are within spitting distance of each other on core economics.

The two parties are within spitting distance of each other on core economics.

The two parties are within spitting distance of each other on core economics.


Given the labour dispute history of the PA and the owners, its absolutely freakin' absurd on behalf of Fehr, Bettman, the PA and the owners, to even loose a single game on this diffrence (if one game/round is 1/100 of the total revenue of the league, one game is 30m).

Still, the NHL and Bettman and managed to set out the agenda to again be about economics. With a great deal of help from all media channels they have in their pockets. Because they do not want this to be about what it really is about.

There is just no way of come to any other conclusion than that what this really is about is contractual issues. The PA say "hey we went from 57 to 50, why should we give back in other ares too?". And I am sure there are 4-5, if not more, like teams in the position of EDM, CBJ and co, who tells Bettman that they will support an agreement he can negotiate if that agreements helps them to keep players they've gathered through a rebuild. With 7/27 and current arbitration you could rebuild for 5 years and still fail unless you manage to establish yourself untill your stars hit 25 y/o... (sure they have a good point).

So you have a chicken race on contractual issues. This is what this is about Freudian. Undoubtedly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sina220 View Post
So a few smaller market teams trying to keep rookies are setting the main agenda for the NHL?

No man, its about money. Its always about money. Its about more owners needing more money from hrr to at least break even. Its about balancing the books so every team at least has a chance to break even. That's what the NHL really wants. They've already admitted they'd concede contract issues if the nhlpa would bargain off of their linked 50/50 split. Fehr just wont do it.
From the time the parties got to where they are today (what's this, a week ago), untill now. Yeah, I definitely think to a large extent that is the case. I am sure Bettman has to take into account what a minority want to get out of this. And I am not so sure that minority is all that small. Just look at what's happend in the NHL lately. A few organizations has been able to attract most UFA's. And its been very tough for not-so-attractive-clubs to get something going.

Other factors would be not being the party the finally bends over and stuff like that.


Last edited by Ola: 11-17-2012 at 06:00 AM.
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11-17-2012, 05:56 AM
  #706
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
So basically Fehr has traded around $60M extra that some owners have to pay other owners in exchange for at least $250M in lost player wages. If that's a win for Fehr, I don't want to know what a loss looks like.

Considering NHL hasn't budged one inch on economics and contracting, I suspect that small concession in revenue sharing, player benefits could have been had much earlier had NHLPA been willing to negotiate.
You hit your head on a nail here Freudian.

This will never add up for the PA. That was clear from the get go. I wrote about that back in June, so I am sure the PA has known about it from the start too. Its not about dollars and cents for them, its about not getting killed again in the negotiations. Because after the owneres behavior, we know that when this CBA is up -- Bettman's opening offer will be 30% plus or take a coupe of percents. Its one thing to go into that negotaition after beeing killed time after time after time, and actually being able to stand up for themselves the previous time.

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11-17-2012, 06:28 AM
  #707
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Originally Posted by hockeyisforeveryone View Post
No one here has answered why 80% of posters in this thread hate/blame the players. Most of the people here I've never seen comment on actual hockey in the NHL forum. Do you really love professional hockey or just here to spout blind hatred for the "imbecilic" players you supposedly care about watching play? Are you just jealous haters? Oh wait, you love the emblem on the sweater, not the players? As time passes new players fill that jersey, they make a team what it is. Players are not going to be taken advantage of like the 1950's.
I guess it's easy to side with the part that appears to be trying come up with a solution so we can drop the puck, as opposed to a part that appears to be just stalling and showing no interest in attempting to come up with a solution that might end this lockout.

If Fehr showed any interest in making a proposal the league might consider (hint: a proposal with linkage), I'm sure the sympathy would swing more towards the players.

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11-17-2012, 07:32 AM
  #708
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Originally Posted by rdawg1234 View Post
The vast majority do that, and I respect them for it.

I kind of think less of the players that take it personally and send out personal attacks to the owners and flip out on twitter expecting sympathy from everyone.

Cant remember the specific player, but I recall one player tweeting about not wanting to take a cut/lose money and then posted his new high-end car right afterwards
Derek Roy?

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11-17-2012, 07:35 AM
  #709
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Originally Posted by Alesle View Post
I guess it's easy to side with the part that appears to be trying come up with a solution so we can drop the puck, as opposed to a part that appears to be just stalling and showing no interest in attempting to come up with a solution that might end this lockout.

If Fehr showed any interest in making a proposal the league might consider (hint: a proposal with linkage), I'm sure the sympathy would swing more towards the players.
I agree. I'm definitely pro-owner in this negotiation. It's because of the NHLpA's insistence on de-linkage.

The cap/floor system forces NYR's and TOR's obscene hockey profits to raise player salaries in Pheonix and Florida. The nhlpA shouldn't waste time trying to grab that profit by raising the cap and siphoning the profit with luxury taxes. They should demand a 2nd Toronto franchise. And a team in Seattle. Move player salary potential North by squeezing more revenue out of the hockey-eager North.

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11-17-2012, 07:38 AM
  #710
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Originally Posted by Alesle View Post
I guess it's easy to side with the part that appears to be trying come up with a solution so we can drop the puck, as opposed to a part that appears to be just stalling and showing no interest in attempting to come up with a solution that might end this lockout.

If Fehr showed any interest in making a proposal the league might consider (hint: a proposal with linkage), I'm sure the sympathy would swing more towards the players.
With 20-20 hindsight, the players won the last CBA negotiation hands down. Nonetheless, the players mistakenly believe (without an objective basis) that they lost by making too many concessions. To right that perceived wrong, they hired Fehr, the man who cancelled the world series, as a counter to Bettman, another lock out specialist.

Both are frankly ham-fisted idiots, who bungled their way into the current the mess without any viable back-up plan beyond canceling the season. The owners and the players got what they deserved by hiring them. Both need to stop whining about how unreasonable the other party is. They are both unreasonable. They are both playing hardball. They deserve each other.

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11-17-2012, 07:45 AM
  #711
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
There is no infighting being reported by any legit news outlets.
Really? Wow.

When radio station in Montreal has direct quotes from Latendresse, it's dismissed as non-legit news outlet?

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11-17-2012, 07:55 AM
  #712
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Really? Wow.

When radio station in Montreal has direct quotes from Latendresse, it's dismissed as non-legit news outlet?
I wouldn't call that "infighting".

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11-17-2012, 07:59 AM
  #713
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So what if there's bad blood. The NFL and NBA were nasty lockouts. They got deals done. I like Mike Russo but he is the owners prime leaker. That's the NHL spin. When the NHL said Fehr was not disclosing the offers to the players,they used Russo to get the info out. The PA says they are close while the NHL says they are not. Even LeBrun noted all of his owners sources are now pessimistic. Management is trying to get a little more from the players. Wait a few weeks and they hope to extract more gains from the players. Garrioch quoted a NHL insider who said Bettman doesn't have more to give. ESPN quoted a basketball owner at the same time last year who said the players had already received their best offer. A week or so later the NBA backed off on their demands and a deal was made. Its up to the NHL.

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11-17-2012, 08:03 AM
  #714
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I wouldn't call that "infighting".
What would you call it then? A player says PA did wrong and should have done differently. "difference of opinion"?

Latendresse publicly questioning PA's tactics is pretty close to infighting to me.

Just like it would be if any owner would publicly state NHL should have done something different.

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11-17-2012, 08:08 AM
  #715
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Nearly everyone agrees that the players "won" the last labor deal and the percentages need to be adjusted closer to a 50-50 split. Yet the NHLPA has not put together ANY proposal that does not have the players making MORE money than last year.

Until they do, I agree, the NHL is only negociating against itself.

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11-17-2012, 08:09 AM
  #716
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyisforeveryone View Post

No one here has answered why 80% of posters in this thread hate/blame the players. Most of the people here I've never seen comment on actual hockey in the NHL forum. Do you really love professional hockey or just here to spout blind hatred for the "imbecilic" players you supposedly care about watching play? Are you just jealous haters? Oh wait, you love the emblem on the sweater, not the players? As time passes new players fill that jersey, they make a team what it is. Players are not going to be taken advantage of like the 1950's.

It's impossible for players, who make an avereage of 2.5 mil a year and can only work 10 years, to be the greedy ones here. All they ask is for a shred of respect and some consolation as a sign of who truly is the NHL, just like a factory is run by its workers, a factory IS its workers. Why can't the owners bend just a little and get the fans back their games? It's not the players fault the owners are so cutthroat by not properly sharing revenues among themselves. Bettman and the owners make me sick.

Does anyone in the BOH even comprehend that a billionaire makes 1000 times that of a millionaire?? It's like I make 30,000 a year and you make 30 million, how can you not pay for our dinner? Owners should view their team as entertainment, If I pay $1500 a year for hockey a billionaire can can lose 50 million, that's fair right? It should be but in this sick world we glorify the sociopath mega-capitalists as heroes and philanthropists while demonizing a group of elite athletes that just want their fair share.

There is some bad blood brewing and I won't be suprised if there is no season. Why can't the blind, arrogant, greedy, filthy rich owners see how little they need to concede to get these boys playing again? I blame the owners for this lockout, 100%. Sometimes I feel I could care less if there is an NHL ever. I wouldn't play for these fat pigs. The owners don't deserve to be involved in this league.
I don't hate the players. I simply think they're seriously detached from reality....and that is the next bolded statement you made. They make an AVERAGE of 2.5 million a year. Over 10 years, that's 25 MILLION dollars. Let me repeat that. TWENTY FIVE MILLION DOLLARS. $25,000,000.00. AND...as you just stated...they only had to work 10 years to get it! $25,000,000.00 from 18 to 28? Give me $25M at the age of 28 and tell me to retire? Ummm...ok? Most people are lucky to make a million in an entire LIFETIME. Moving right along.... Does anyone here comprehend the level of intelligence, and the amount of education the owners have to have gotten to be billionaires? Or how hard it is to STAY a billionaire? One doesn't become a billionaire by investing in losing propositions. Someone else asked why they'd even buy a team if it's losing money. Well..because if things are done a certain way,it could make money. And last but not least...

"Why can't the blind, arrogant, greedy, filthy rich owners see how little they need to concede to get these boys playing again?"

LOL How about... Why can't the blind, arrogant, greedy, filthy rich players so how little they need to concede to be playing again? The proposed CBA by the NHL prevents none of them from being multi-millionaires. Period. If they're not happy being millionaires...time to move on to a new profression.


Last edited by Crease: 11-17-2012 at 09:40 AM. Reason: OT
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11-17-2012, 08:13 AM
  #717
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Ed Snider wants to play. He was hoping for a December 1 puck drop. Its time to get a deal before all of the sponsors and fans leave. http://mobile.philly.com/sports/?wss...viewAll=y#more

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11-17-2012, 08:17 AM
  #718
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Ed Snider wants to play. He was hoping for a December 1 puck drop. Its time to get a deal before all of the sponsors and fans leave. http://mobile.philly.com/sports/?wss...viewAll=y#more
Another person who is blaming Jeremy Jacobs.


In the end the contempt for Jacobs will be white noise, because none of the Bruins will demand a trade rather than play for the guy who has been one of the biggest hands in not allowing them to get paid.

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11-17-2012, 08:41 AM
  #719
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Another person who is blaming Jeremy Jacobs.


In the end the contempt for Jacobs will be white noise, because none of the Bruins will demand a trade rather than play for the guy who has been one of the biggest hands in not allowing them to get paid.
This is huge:

"On Friday, multiple sources indicated Snider's "strong discontent" for Bruins owner Jeremy Jacobs, a big-market owner who has been one of the lockout's ringleaders.

Despite their on-ice rivalry, there seems to be some thinking that the Flyers are interested in teaming up with the midmarket but high-revenue Pittsburgh Penguins to sway more governors toward a swift resolution. The Rangers are also viewed as anti-lockout."

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11-17-2012, 08:44 AM
  #720
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You have it reversed. In 5 of the 7 years the players didn't receive the entirety of their contributions back. The two seasons that the players did receive 100%+ back were 2005-2006 and 2007-2008.

The 5 years they lost escrow ranged from ~0.5% last season to almost 13% in 2008-2009.
Thanks mouser. That definitely lends credence to the idea that there is a demand for more spending room.

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11-17-2012, 08:59 AM
  #721
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
What would you call it then? A player says PA did wrong and should have done differently. "difference of opinion"?

Latendresse publicly questioning PA's tactics is pretty close to infighting to me.

Just like it would be if any owner would publicly state NHL should have done something different.
It's a comment by one player, hardly infighting. The PA is pretty tight right now.

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11-17-2012, 08:59 AM
  #722
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I've long said the union should have mandatory investment and financial planning classes.
From what I have read on these forums and elsewhere the union should start the players off with math classes. And not the new crap they teach in schools either. I'm talking old school adding and subtracting.

But you're general comment is correct. They really need to focus on educating the players on how to manage their lives and careers. Financial planning and investments would be a part of that goal and I would even suggest some training on how the industry works and how to negotiate a CBA.

I don't know if it's still up and running but the union should offer summer sessions at the Coady Institute in Antigonish, NS. This is the kind of work (Educating people on how to run their lives and build cooperative ventures) they and their founder, Moses Coady have been doing since the 30's.

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11-17-2012, 09:03 AM
  #723
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Originally Posted by Retail1LO View Post
I don't hate the players. I simply think they're seriously detached from reality....and that is the next bolded statement you made. They make an AVERAGE of 2.5 million a year. Over 10 years, that's 25 MILLION dollars. Let me repeat that. TWENTY FIVE MILLION DOLLARS. $25,000,000.00. AND...as you just stated...they only had to work 10 years to get it! $25,000,000.00 from 18 to 28? Give me $25M at the age of 28 and tell me to retire? Ummm...ok? Most people are lucky to make a million in an entire LIFETIME. Moving right along.... Does anyone here comprehend the level of intelligence, and the amount of education the owners have to have gotten to be billionaires? Or how hard it is to STAY a billionaire? One doesn't become a billionaire by investing in losing propositions. Someone else asked why they'd even buy a team if it's losing money. Well..because if things are done a certain way,it could make money. And last but not least...

"Why can't the blind, arrogant, greedy, filthy rich owners see how little they need to concede to get these boys playing again?"

LOL How about... Why can't the blind, arrogant, greedy, filthy rich players so how little they need to concede to be playing again? The proposed CBA by the NHL prevents none of them from being multi-millionaires. Period. If they're not happy being millionaires...time to move on to a new profression.

The players can go fly a kite in an electrical storm...complete with a key at the end of the line...for all I care.
Just FYI, the average NHL career doesn't even begin to approach 10 years.

Sure, a lot if them make fantastically good money, but as the saying goes, nothing comes for free.

Carry on.

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11-17-2012, 09:10 AM
  #724
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From what I have read on these forums and elsewhere the union should start the players off with math classes. And not the new crap they teach in schools either. I'm talking old school adding and subtracting.

But you're general comment is correct. They really need to focus on educating the players on how to manage their lives and careers. Financial planning and investments would be a part of that goal and I would even suggest some training on how the industry works and how to negotiate a CBA.

I don't know if it's still up and running but the union should offer summer sessions at the Coady Institute in Antigonish, NS.
The decisionmakers for the PA are sharper than the know-it-alls on this board. There's 5 out of 30 that spent 4+ years at Ivy League Schools. What's the proportion on this board? 2 from Harvard, 2 from Princeton. Bettman graduated from Cornell so did Douglas Murray...

Besides that you have many others on the Negotiation Committee that spent years in top Colleges... Darche is a McGill graduate that won the CIS outstanding Student athlete prize. Brad Boyes won the CHL Scholastic Player of the Year Award. I don't think their intellectual skills should be called into question.

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11-17-2012, 09:11 AM
  #725
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
This is huge:

"On Friday, multiple sources indicated Snider's "strong discontent" for Bruins owner Jeremy Jacobs, a big-market owner who has been one of the lockout's ringleaders.

Despite their on-ice rivalry, there seems to be some thinking that the Flyers are interested in teaming up with the midmarket but high-revenue Pittsburgh Penguins to sway more governors toward a swift resolution. The Rangers are also viewed as anti-lockout."
That's why I made my point about the Bruins. Many people blame small markets as a collective. And I don't consider Washington "small-market" even though they're in that group, but haven't heard much about Leonsis. But Jacobs' name is coming up more than it did during the last lockout, when he didn't want to give the players a cent. He really does see the players as cattle, and any member of the Bruins should be personally insulted and not want to work for him if they had any self-respect whatsoever. It was Philly reporters who reported last week that talks went south once Jacobs re-entered the room. Maybe more of the scorn should go to him. If the owners break, it will hinge on whether or not Bettman wants his wagon hitched to Jacobs.

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