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Old
11-17-2012, 06:42 AM
  #801
Liferleafer
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
Any high profile athletes can force trade, it happens all the time. I provided examples as well. That's not a disputable point. I posted all of these points to add the the discussion as well, not for them to be shot down with little to no explanation.

Vancouver's cap situation [even if off by a 1m or so] is most definitely a problem within a year if improvement is going to be made. The number's explain that and the reason's behind it.

Remember, I'm saying within a season's time. Take these points and use them to discuss a potential trade.

If they are off based, provide something of substance to counter them.

Discuss.
Hey Marty....what is your angle here? Is this you inciting a riot, or do you want Luongo...but for real cheap? These are all nice fluffy reasons you've given for a nice cheap return.....you forgot the most important reason that Luongo actually has value...he is a better goalie than what a number of teams now have. For that reason, he will return more than cap dumps and garbage.

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11-17-2012, 07:53 AM
  #802
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
Any high profile athletes can force trade, it happens all the time. I provided examples as well. That's not a disputable point. I posted all of these points to add the the discussion as well, not for them to be shot down with little to no explanation.

Vancouver's cap situation [even if off by a 1m or so] is most definitely a problem within a year if improvement is going to be made. The number's explain that and the reason's behind it.

Remember, I'm saying within a season's time. Take these points and use them to discuss a potential trade.

If they are off based, provide something of substance to counter them.

Discuss.
Marty as a fellow rookie user, let start with some that was common where I used to go to, welcome to the board. I have read both your proposals and appreciate the work thought put intio them. you make some very valid points.

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11-17-2012, 08:20 AM
  #803
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You are flat wrong. He is under a lgal obligation to fulfill his contract or retire. That is not debatable.
Actually, you are both right, period. Yes Lou can demand a trade as many have before, no Gillis does not have to trade him do to the contract as you stated. HOWEVER, many players have forced trades, simply by becoming a distraction, directly or indirectly. The Canucks have a cup window and guess what those aren't open long, it's already closing folks. So does Gillis trade loungo or let an asset sit for nothing in return be it for present or future help?

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11-17-2012, 08:21 AM
  #804
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This.

Our defence outside of Hamhuis, is kinda inept at defending.
I disagree with this. Our problems then stemmed from Bowness switching up every D pair once it was realized Salo could no longer log Edler level minutes. Hamhuis and Tanev was a great pairing, but Edler-Bieksa, Edler-Gragnani, Rome-Bieksa etc were all poor. I do not think they are inept at defending, they just struggled with being shuffled through guys they never usually play with ever couple of games.

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11-17-2012, 08:34 AM
  #805
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Some of you are in denial. It continues to amaze me how determined some of you are to convince yourselves that Luongo will get max value. Asking for a trade, his contract , his age and all the other factors do not hurt his value.

No one could name an example of a player asking to be traded who wasn't, but some how Vancouver is special and this won't affect them at all.

Keeping him is an option because having a player in your locker room who doesn't want to be there can in no way hurt your team.

Yet despite all this a good number of your fan base have lowered their expectations. Your own GM has said " The trade does not have to make us better, it has to make us different " which basically means we have to get something for him.

I'm not saying he is coming to Torornto, nor will I claim to know what his value is, but I do believe based on overwelming evidence and history he will be traded, he will not be waived, and he will not get you as much as Nash got CBJ.

I hope for Vancouvers sake that a team like Chicago is in play which would increase the options but really the circumstances make for a small group that would give up anything substantial. Really trading him to any team you see often seems undesirable, Chicago chief among them based on the recent rivalry.

It has been reported that a discussion between Toronto and Vancouver centered around Bozak. Your own roster depth limits the number of players you can get back. Over and over we hear " how does this help us ? " when the reality is your GM is simply trying to salvage what he can from the situation.

Logic suggests he will move Luongo before training camp or he will ask him to stay home until a deal will be worked out so as not to be a distraction to the team. This is not a slight on Luongo but having the media asking Luongo trade questions when the season starts will be disruptive.

It seems many is this discussion forget these are real people involved , that there are pressures pushing a resolution, that every interested GM is aware of this and will use it to their advantage. I suggest some of you lower your expectations and you may be pleasantly surprised, failing that at least you will suffer less disappointment if the deal is indeed Bozak, a prospect and a pick.

The statement "He is under contract" seems like little more than a desperate attempt to ignore all the factors in play . Luongo is a great goalie, better than Schnieder in my opinion and he will help any team who gets him for several years after the trade, but to ignore all the other factors that will hinder the return on him is just folly.

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Old
11-17-2012, 08:43 AM
  #806
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Originally Posted by BlueBaron View Post
Some of you are in denial. It continues to amaze me how determined some of you are to convince yourselves that Luongo will get max value. Asking for a trade, his contract , his age and all the other factors do not hurt his value.

No one could name an example of a player asking to be traded who wasn't, but some how Vancouver is special and this won't affect them at all.

Keeping him is an option because having a player in your locker room who doesn't want to be there can in no way hurt your team.

Yet despite all this a good number of your fan base have lowered their expectations. Your own GM has said " The trade does not have to make us better, it has to make us different " which basically means we have to get something for him.

I'm not saying he is coming to Torornto, nor will I claim to know what his value is, but I do believe based on overwelming evidence and history he will be traded, he will not be waived, and he will not get you as much as Nash got CBJ.

I hope for Vancouvers sake that a team like Chicago is in play which would increase the options but really the circumstances make for a small group that would give up anything substantial. Really trading him to any team you see often seems undesirable, Chicago chief among them based on the recent rivalry.

It has been reported that a discussion between Toronto and Vancouver centered around Bozak. Your own roster depth limits the number of players you can get back. Over and over we hear " how does this help us ? " when the reality is your GM is simply trying to salvage what he can from the situation.

Logic suggests he will move Luongo before training camp or he will ask him to stay home until a deal will be worked out so as not to be a distraction to the team. This is not a slight on Luongo but having the media asking Luongo trade questions when the season starts will be disruptive.

It seems many is this discussion forget these are real people involved , that there are pressures pushing a resolution, that every interested GM is aware of this and will use it to their advantage. I suggest some of you lower your expectations and you may be pleasantly surprised, failing that at least you will suffer less disappointment if the deal is indeed Bozak, a prospect and a pick.

The statement "He is under contract" seems like little more than a desperate attempt to ignore all the factors in play . Luongo is a great goalie, better than Schnieder in my opinion and he will help any team who gets him for several years after the trade, but to ignore all the other factors that will hinder the return on him is just folly.
Could you post a link were he "asked to be traded"? All i recall was a response to a question about Gillis shopping him were he said "maybe it's time to move on".

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11-17-2012, 08:49 AM
  #807
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Originally Posted by racerjoe View Post
I would also like to add #1 and #3 are probably very related, if #1 happens and all three guys leave, probably even if traded, #3 happens and it probably won't be Burkes job anymore to help.

Keep in mind I am not Burke hater, just the facts, it is rare a GM can have 5 loosing seasons in a row, and then lose his building blocks, and still have a job.
Absolutely it is rare, however that Burke has taken a baren cupboard and filled it with some very decent propects will probably buy him time with the new ownership group. The new coach may also do that, it is commonly mis reported that Burke hired his friend Wilson. These may buy him a season or two with new ownership.

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11-17-2012, 08:52 AM
  #808
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Bobby Ryan allegedly asked for a trade before reconsidering. Luongo never "demanded" to be traded. Besides the fact that we could simply trade Schneider if the offers for Luongo are awful. But I doubt it gets that far anyways. I think Luongo will be traded shortly after the CBA comes through. This whole "We'll just keep him" attitude my most Canucks fans is simply a response to lowball offers. Realistically I think that there are some solid offers put out there by GMs, as the only rumours that have surfaced have all had some solid value.(ex Bolland+; Schenn; Kulemin+Komisarek+1st)

Whether you trust the validity of these rumours or not, the absence of any rumoured deals that treat Luongo as a cap dump doesn't help the case for people who see Luongo as having marginal value.
Bobby Ryan's case is slightly different though. He was more pissed off that his name kept be brought up time and time again as Ana was looking to trade him for help. So he finally said if you aren't happy with me trade me. But point taken

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Old
11-17-2012, 08:53 AM
  #809
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Originally Posted by doorman View Post
Absolutely it is rare, however that Burke has taken a baren cupboard and filled it with some very decent propects will probably buy him time with the new ownership group. The new coach may also do that, it is commonly mis reported that Burke hired his friend Wilson. These may buy him a season or two with new ownership.
At some point, the ownership is going to want results.....basic business.

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11-17-2012, 08:55 AM
  #810
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Originally Posted by doorman View Post
Bobby Ryan's case is slightly different though. He was more pissed off that his name kept be brought up time and time again as Ana was looking to trade him for help. So he finally said if you aren't happy with me trade me. But point taken
But...this is kind of the same thing:

Reporter: Hey Roberto, Gillis is reportedly shopping you for a trade...any comment?

Luongo: Well, i am very happy here...but if the team feels it's time for a change, maybe it's time to move on.

How exactly is this Luongo "asking to be traded"?

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11-17-2012, 09:28 AM
  #811
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Could you post a link were he "asked to be traded"? All i recall was a response to a question about Gillis shopping him were he said "maybe it's time to move on".
That was a polite way of asking really, was it not?

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11-17-2012, 09:30 AM
  #812
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
At some point, the ownership is going to want results.....basic business.
Not what I said and I agree with you, I was simply stating he may get a year or two with new ownership in place, if they like the direction. Plus he may simply do something as simple as ask to promote Nonis where he will have zero GM influence, right? wink, wink, nudge nudge

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11-17-2012, 09:43 AM
  #813
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
But...this is kind of the same thing:

Reporter: Hey Roberto, Gillis is reportedly shopping you for a trade...any comment?

Luongo: Well, i am very happy here...but if the team feels it's time for a change, maybe it's time to move on.

How exactly is this Luongo "asking to be traded"?
That was a response in regards to Bobby Ruan being used as an example of a player of impact type stature recinding a trade request, that's how it differs IMO

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Old
11-17-2012, 10:13 AM
  #814
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Originally Posted by doorman View Post
That was a response in regards to Bobby Ruan being used as an example of a player of impact type stature recinding a trade request, that's how it differs IMO
My point was, the starting point in the "Luongo has no value" stance is that he asked to be traded...clearly, he had not. He basically said "what ever the team feels is best".

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11-17-2012, 10:39 AM
  #815
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
My point was, the starting point in the "Luongo has no value" stance is that he asked to be traded...clearly, he had not. He basically said "what ever the team feels is best".
Thank you LL

this needs to be put up in flashing lights above this thread.

While we can all assume Lu would prefer to have a guaranteed starter's role (as the majority of goalies would) he never asked to be traded...

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Old
11-17-2012, 10:42 AM
  #816
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Could you post a link were he "asked to be traded"? All i recall was a response to a question about Gillis shopping him were he said "maybe it's time to move on".
Lets be honest, do you really believe Luo wants to be in Vancouver?

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11-17-2012, 10:57 AM
  #817
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Lets be honest, do you really believe Luo wants to be in Vancouver?
Well he is not going to be traded to Toronto period!We want somthing that helps our team now,and i dont see Toronto providing anything we can use.We will wait on other teams to get into the mix first and take the best deal.As far as i see now,it might not be till next fall.

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11-17-2012, 11:18 AM
  #818
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Well he is not going to be traded to Toronto period!We want somthing that helps our team now,and i dont see Toronto providing anything we can use.We will wait on other teams to get into the mix first and take the best deal.As far as i see now,it might not be till next fall.
See I guess really that's the thing right there has to be a season and a cba for a trade, If there is no agreement to next season I don't think Lou ends up in TO. There will be UFA and other possible options via the new CBA and cap for BOTH teams. Which may end up better for the both of them? Truth is Van fans can say Lou won't be ntraded to the leafs and Leaf fans can scream they only wanna trade some used jock straps and a bag of pucks for a very good starting goalie, but it doesn't matter what we say. We have no idea what either team feels they need or want.

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11-17-2012, 11:20 AM
  #819
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
My point was, the starting point in the "Luongo has no value" stance is that he asked to be traded...clearly, he had not. He basically said "what ever the team feels is best".
I can see that, my statement wasn't based on Loungo, I was simply pointing out that I thought the Ryan situtaion was different.

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11-17-2012, 11:23 AM
  #820
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Hemsky and a first?

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Old
11-17-2012, 11:29 AM
  #821
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Originally Posted by BlueBaron View Post
Some of you are in denial. It continues to amaze me how determined some of you are to convince yourselves that Luongo will get max value. Asking for a trade, his contract , his age and all the other factors do not hurt his value.

No one could name an example of a player asking to be traded who wasn't, but some how Vancouver is special and this won't affect them at all.

Keeping him is an option because having a player in your locker room who doesn't want to be there can in no way hurt your team.

Yet despite all this a good number of your fan base have lowered their expectations. Your own GM has said " The trade does not have to make us better, it has to make us different " which basically means we have to get something for him.

I'm not saying he is coming to Torornto, nor will I claim to know what his value is, but I do believe based on overwelming evidence and history he will be traded, he will not be waived, and he will not get you as much as Nash got CBJ.

I hope for Vancouvers sake that a team like Chicago is in play which would increase the options but really the circumstances make for a small group that would give up anything substantial. Really trading him to any team you see often seems undesirable, Chicago chief among them based on the recent rivalry.

It has been reported that a discussion between Toronto and Vancouver centered around Bozak. Your own roster depth limits the number of players you can get back. Over and over we hear " how does this help us ? " when the reality is your GM is simply trying to salvage what he can from the situation.

Logic suggests he will move Luongo before training camp or he will ask him to stay home until a deal will be worked out so as not to be a distraction to the team. This is not a slight on Luongo but having the media asking Luongo trade questions when the season starts will be disruptive.

It seems many is this discussion forget these are real people involved , that there are pressures pushing a resolution, that every interested GM is aware of this and will use it to their advantage. I suggest some of you lower your expectations and you may be pleasantly surprised, failing that at least you will suffer less disappointment if the deal is indeed Bozak, a prospect and a pick.

The statement "He is under contract" seems like little more than a desperate attempt to ignore all the factors in play . Luongo is a great goalie, better than Schnieder in my opinion and he will help any team who gets him for several years after the trade, but to ignore all the other factors that will hinder the return on him is just folly.
First max Value for a goalie like Lui, from TO would be something like Kessel Shcenn riemer for Lui and Tanev. How do we know this? Cause thats what the Canucks gave up the first time, and I might add most people did and still do say we ripped them off. So who has asked for a package like that?

No one can name you a time besides Bobby Ryan, Bernier? There is two, plus again as Dregs and Ferraro have stated it happens more than we know, just stays quite most of the time.

Who as asked for as much as Nash? That would be a package like Gardiner, Kuliman, Bozak and a 1st.

Logic suggests you don't know the situation at all. Nash demanded a trade and still played out the season with the Jackets, as far as I can tell Bernier is still playing for LA, Bure actually played two entire seasons with the Canucks before sitting out one, but he sat out once his contract was over.

You are right these are real people, real guys that don't want to do wrong by their teammates, guys they have sweat and bled for. Guys they have all played through injuries for. A team that dragged themselves to within one game of the Stanley Cup Finals, on one leg for. A team that has literally gone through the wall for each other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doorman View Post
Absolutely it is rare, however that Burke has taken a baren cupboard and filled it with some very decent propects will probably buy him time with the new ownership group. The new coach may also do that, it is commonly mis reported that Burke hired his friend Wilson. These may buy him a season or two with new ownership.
So said GM says I have a five year plan, we are going to make the playoffs, you shouldn't have to do a full rebuild. Then after failing at all of these things is going to get an extension? Keep in mind I like Burke and think he is going to try and pull out all the stops he can to not let this happen, if it is Lui or not, but that a lone is 3 strikes, Playoffs? Failed. Rebuild on the fly? Failed. Turning the leafs into a winning team? Failed. They are in virtually the same spot they wee when he was hired.

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11-17-2012, 11:40 AM
  #822
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Originally Posted by racerjoe View Post
First max Value for a goalie like Lui, from TO would be something like Kessel Shcenn riemer for Lui and Tanev. How do we know this? Cause thats what the Canucks gave up the first time, and I might add most people did and still do say we ripped them off. So who has asked for a package like that?

No one can name you a time besides Bobby Ryan, Bernier? There is two, plus again as Dregs and Ferraro have stated it happens more than we know, just stays quite most of the time.

Who as asked for as much as Nash? That would be a package like Gardiner, Kuliman, Bozak and a 1st.

Logic suggests you don't know the situation at all. Nash demanded a trade and still played out the season with the Jackets, as far as I can tell Bernier is still playing for LA, Bure actually played two entire seasons with the Canucks before sitting out one, but he sat out once his contract was over.

You are right these are real people, real guys that don't want to do wrong by their teammates, guys they have sweat and bled for. Guys they have all played through injuries for. A team that dragged themselves to within one game of the Stanley Cup Finals, on one leg for. A team that has literally gone through the wall for each other.



So said GM says I have a five year plan, we are going to make the playoffs, you shouldn't have to do a full rebuild. Then after failing at all of these things is going to get an extension? Keep in mind I like Burke and think he is going to try and pull out all the stops he can to not let this happen, if it is Lui or not, but that a lone is 3 strikes, Playoffs? Failed. Rebuild on the fly? Failed. Turning the leafs into a winning team? Failed. They are in virtually the same spot they wee when he was hired.
Oh I don't dispute the supossed five year plan disaster. I am simply stating that what he has done in other areas may buy him another season possibly two. If there is no season he might get two, pending on how he does in the FA market. The best thing that could happen to the Leafs is really no season, lets be honest.

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11-17-2012, 11:41 AM
  #823
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Originally Posted by BlueBaron View Post
No one could name an example of a player asking to be traded who wasn't, but some how Vancouver is special and this won't affect them at all.

I'm not saying he is coming to Torornto, nor will I claim to know what his value is, but I do believe based on overwelming evidence and history he will be traded, he will not be waived, and he will not get you as much as Nash got CBJ.
I think you named the player yourself. How long did CBJ hold onto Nash before they traded him?

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11-17-2012, 12:18 PM
  #824
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Originally Posted by Shawnathon View Post
Lets be honest, do you really believe Luo wants to be in Vancouver?
The man signed a 12 year deal to be there.......

Furthermore, i was responding to a post that stated emphatically "Luongo asked to be traded", i think it's fair to call someone on that when it is false. Do i think he wants to be there? I don't know...and i am not afraid to admit i don't know.

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11-17-2012, 12:33 PM
  #825
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Originally Posted by racerjoe View Post
First max Value for a goalie like Lui, from TO would be something like Kessel Shcenn riemer for Lui and Tanev. How do we know this? Cause thats what the Canucks gave up the first time, and I might add most people did and still do say we ripped them off. So who has asked for a package like that?

No one can name you a time besides Bobby Ryan, Bernier? There is two, plus again as Dregs and Ferraro have stated it happens more than we know, just stays quite most of the time.

Who as asked for as much as Nash? That would be a package like Gardiner, Kuliman, Bozak and a 1st.

Logic suggests you don't know the situation at all. Nash demanded a trade and still played out the season with the Jackets, as far as I can tell Bernier is still playing for LA, Bure actually played two entire seasons with the Canucks before sitting out one, but he sat out once his contract was over.

You are right these are real people, real guys that don't want to do wrong by their teammates, guys they have sweat and bled for. Guys they have all played through injuries for. A team that dragged themselves to within one game of the Stanley Cup Finals, on one leg for. A team that has literally gone through the wall for each other.



So said GM says I have a five year plan, we are going to make the playoffs, you shouldn't have to do a full rebuild. Then after failing at all of these things is going to get an extension? Keep in mind I like Burke and think he is going to try and pull out all the stops he can to not let this happen, if it is Lui or not, but that a lone is 3 strikes, Playoffs? Failed. Rebuild on the fly? Failed. Turning the leafs into a winning team? Failed. They are in virtually the same spot they wee when he was hired.
I'll agree with all...except the bolded. Kessel,Lupul,Phaneuf,Gardiner,JVR,Reilly,Colborne, Kadri,Finn,Percy,Biggs,Liles,Franson,Brown,McCleme nt and even Steckel.

These are all Burke aquisitions and while results are not there (YET) in the standings, i think it's safe to say our future is brighter than it was when he got here.

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