Just a few scraps of news coming out, but enough to cobble together a post:
1)Sounds like the NHL has offered ~$211 million for 'make whole', which they are characterizing as "paying it all, with interest, by year 3". Based on my earlier (back of the envelope, very rough) calculations, that is more like half of the overall loss to existing contracts, but, whatever, half sounds fair to me...
2)Betttman wants 50/50 immediately, with its attendant impact on the cap, plus all the other restrictions on player contracts (UFA age, length, etc). That would be a big win for the owners, esp those of small market market teams. Fehr should have been actively negotiating on this latter front a long time ago instead of playing coy. It would have meant more to the players, long term.
3)Russo seems to think the players still want ALL their salary even with the inevitably shortened season. That is just plain dumb and the owners will never stand for it, because most can't afford to give away $ they have not made.
4)Although it is looking as if the Owners are making concessions, it seems to me they are still holding firm to their fundamental demands. The players are in a box, because, aside from the upper echelon, who will benefit from make whole, the rest have little upside to not settling (no that this is much different from last week or the week before).
5)Almost forgot to add, now Fehr is being accused of deliberately withholding information from the players. I doubt that is true. Twisting and misrepresenting complex issues to their naive little minds, to their detriment, to further his grandiose ends....maybe.
Meanwhile, the lockout clock is still ticking. $309 million lost, and counting...
Actually it is almost 100% of it. 57-50 is a 12.28% decrease and 12.28% of 1.8 billion (roughly last years player share) is $221.040 million. So they have offered roughly 95% of the players salaries based on last years share of HRR.
Actually it is almost 100% of it. 57-50 is a 12.28% decrease and 12.28% of 1.8 billion (roughly last years player share) is $221.040 million. So they have offered roughly 95% of the players salaries based on last years share of HRR.
Yes, I get you there, but I had been projecting ahead for the entire length of the new CBA. Each subsequent year there will be some residual contracts to make whole, till they all lapse. The annual amount owing will be less as league revenues grow, but I had projected the compounded total to be closer to 450 mill. Of course, my understanding of what Bettman has offered may be off (as might my math!)
Read an interesting article in today's Globe and Mail by Eric Reguly, on the economics of the KHL. I cannot find an e-link, so here are a few excerpts:
"With a scarcity of fans, none of the 20 KHL teams in Russia turns a profit"
"My hot dog, Snickers bar and bottled water comes to...$3.25. A game ticket costs about $10."
"...teams are controlled by an eclectic mob of state and private owners that make you wonder whether Russian pro hockey is business, charity or vanity project."
"Most of Russian teams play in terrible stadiums that they do not own..."
"TV revenues are pathetic...about $4 million a year....compared to the NHL....deal averages $200 million a year"
Anyone who thinks the KHL is a viable alternative to the NHL is smoking something. There is no other economic model on earth that generates the salary and lifestyle for hockey players that the NHL does.
They should thank their lucky stars and get back to work.
A poster called Alesle posted this on the Business of hockey board and I quite liked it as it put real numbers on the page.
I didn't bother moving the deferred payments, for simplicity I included them in the years they would've been earned. Also, as I've understood it, the latest proposal would only guarantee the first two seasons of the contracts, using the 211M set aside for that purpose, to make the contracts 'whole'. Unlike the first 'Make Whole' proposal I was not of the impression that any additional money from the players (UFA pool) would be used to 'make whole' the contracts in the event of the 211M set aside would not cover the contracts fully. If you have any sources indicating otherwise, please share as I'd like to read it.
So with my understanding, the payments for the imaginary player would look like this when the deferred payments are moved to the correct years (and 2 % interest for one full year on the deferred salary included):
----------------------------12/13* 13/14 14/15 15/16 16/17
NHLPA offer-----------------5.00M 5.00M 5.00M 5.00M 5.00M
NHL offer with 7 % growth--4.69M 5.32M 5.00M 5.00M 5.00M
NHL offer with 5 % growth--4.6M 5.24M 5.17M 5.00M 5.00M
NHL offer with 3 % growth--4.51M 5.05M 4.95M 4.93M 5.00M
NHL offer with 1 % growth--4.43M 4.88M 4.68M 4.56M 4.6M
NHL offer with 0 % growth--4.38M 4.79M 4.55M 4.38M 4.38M
Reports emerged Friday of a shouting match between players and owners at the end of that day’s meeting. But the delegate said the exchange was “extremely brief” and stood out only because of its rarity.
The exchange was between the free-agent defenseman Chris Campoli and Winnipeg defenseman Ron Hainsey on one side, and the owners Murray Edwards of Calgary and Craig Leipold of Minnesota on the other.
The delegate called descriptions of the incident a “major exaggeration.”
“No one would have noticed it but for the fact that these meetings are very, very professional — no one even raises their voice,” he said.
"The issue of finding a way to pay players with existing contracts in full under a lower salary cap — or settling on a “make whole” provision, in the language of the negotiations — had been a stumbling block in previous weeks. But by Sunday, the two sides were $2 million to $3 million apart per team, per year, an amount the delegate described as “within spitting distance.”
The league and union are even closer to agreement on revenue sharing among clubs, with a plan described as basically done except for administrative details. The system will be significantly expanded compared with the N.H.L.’s current system, with more teams qualifying for revenue sharing and more money distributed. "
This is extremely good news. The only major issues remaining, according to the article, are those related to the nature of individual contracts (length, UFA age, etc). These are much more impactful on players careers than the revenue split, but Fehr should not have left them for last, IMO. There is no way the PA could justify sacrificing an entire season for this one issue and Bettman is holding pretty firm on it.
All in all I am pretty hopeful that a resolution is near and very pleased at the potential impact the new CBA will have on our franchise.
I'm VERY surprised at how much the nhls dug in on contracting demands, I definitely saw those as expendable pieces. It looks like now that we've solved the last issue were going to have the same unblinking stone walling tactics all over again.
Overall it is pretty good news. You would have to think a comprimise is out there somewhere. I would like to see an end to front loaded cap circumvating contracts. As pro owner as I have been...the owners only have themselves to blame on that one.
Overall it is pretty good news. You would have to think a comprimise is out there somewhere. I would like to see an end to front loaded cap circumvating contracts. As pro owner as I have been...the owners only have themselves to blame on that one.
Correction a few owners are to blame. There are a number of teams who have not given those contracts out and refuse to give them out. But I agree that the owners have to come off there stance on contracts a bit, the 5% decline is really all they need to get rid of the long term front loaded deals. Keep everything else the same. There is a deal to be made here, but I expect a bunch more complain until its signed.
Correction a few owners are to blame. There are a number of teams who have not given those contracts out and refuse to give them out. But I agree that the owners have to come off there stance on contracts a bit, the 5% decline is really all they need to get rid of the long term front loaded deals. Keep everything else the same. There is a deal to be made here, but I expect a bunch more complain until its signed.
I will agree with you that not all owners are to blame, and a 5% varience pretty much makes contract length irrelavent.
However, I think the one area where owners will stand firm is widing the gap between ELC and UFA. As it is now the owners find themselves giving out big long term contracts to guys comming off ELC before they are sure the player is actually worth it. If they shorten ELC to 2 years and push UFA out by a year you now have a 6 year gap instead of 4. So you can then sign the same player you were giving a 6 year contract at $ 5+ M under the old agreement to half that over a 3 or 4 year contract. Then you you can give out the big money to someone you now know is really worth it on their 3rd contract. Paying players on potential rather than actual performance is inflationary and both sides know it.
Correction a few owners are to blame. There are a number of teams who have not given those contracts out and refuse to give them out. But I agree that the owners have to come off there stance on contracts a bit, the 5% decline is really all they need to get rid of the long term front loaded deals. Keep everything else the same. There is a deal to be made here, but I expect a bunch more complain until its signed.
Tough call with that statement.
We only know for certain how contracts end but know what happens before.
For example: If most news indications are correct, which they aren't always, most of the NHL teams offered Parise and Suter the same contracts but they chose who they could take. The only teams that didn't may have not more due to restrictions with cap space and such.
With another chunk of the NHL schedule in danger of being cancelled, about the only thing the league and NHL Players’ Association are talking about is taking a break.
Gary Bettman contacted Donald Fehr on Wednesday and suggested the sides place a two-week moratorium on negotiations, two sources confirmed to The Canadian Press on Thursday night.
A response has yet to be given. Fehr, the NHLPA’s executive director, told the NHL commissioner he wanted to take the offer to his membership before providing an answer.
The requested break comes after talks fell silent following six consecutive days of meetings between the sides last week in New York. It was clear by the end of that run that pessimism and some bad feelings had made their way into the proceedings.
The league is close to making another round of game cancellations, prompting some to suggest the season was in danger. Asked about that possibility on Thursday morning, deputy commissioner Bill Daly replied: “I hope not.”
“But I’m more discouraged now than I have been at any point in the process,” Daly added.
I've got a better idea. How about you lock yourselves in a room, and no one comes out until a deal is hammered out? Geez, you'd think they'd at least bring in a mediator to get the ball rolling again.
The word floating around twitter is Gary Bettman "heard" that Fehr told the players on conference call that the Owners/Bettman had a December 1st deadline (or start date? in mind) so this is apparently Gary Bettman's stand against that.
Let's see how high we can continue to pile this load of BS, from both sides. And the incompetence continues...
i'm very doubtful we get hockey this season now. Thats probably just the usual up down cycle, but my hope for a resolution was always based on these contract issues being sacrificial lambs the league would axe in an effort to reduce the players cut. Now we finid out that their actually pretty committed to them, i really wish they'd have caved on % as I think their contract rules go a lot farther at curbing costs then the 7 % reduction.
I am down in Phoenix with my family and today it was 78 degrees and perfect for a swim in the pool. I have to admit I needed a break from the lockout saga and since it's a non story down here it's the perfect get away. it's definatley taking longer than I thought and both sides are dug in......epic battle and such a waste of time, money, and brand equity.
I am down in Phoenix with my family and today it was 78 degrees and perfect for a swim in the pool. I have to admit I needed a break from the lockout saga and since it's a non story down here it's the perfect get away. it's definatley taking longer than I thought and both sides are dug in......epic battle and such a waste of time, money, and brand equity.
I'm not sure ironic is the right word for the situation in Phoenix but does that seem kind of messed up to anyone else? Franchise hanging by a thread, league completely discombobulated at the moment and no one cares? Is it wrong to suggest that maybe it's fairly telling about the importance of hockey in certain markets?
As for Bettman's move, as frustrating as the two week layoff from negotiating is, has the NHLPA actually really shown up to negotiate or have they just been mostly holding their breath until they turn blue? Are they turning blue now?
Honestly still don't get their stance. I understand they don't want to give up $$, no one does. But did they really expect to win? Why not sit back and figure out meaningful ways to offset that salary rollback in terms of other perks or ways that would see increases over time to offset the initial pain? It worked for the last lockout, why not this one? Hey, I'm right there with them...I hate Bettman too but calling him every name in the book for 16 years didn't help bring the Jets back either. It took someone a little wiser, a lot calmer and who understood how to work the system.
I'm not sure ironic is the right word for the situation in Phoenix but does that seem kind of messed up to anyone else? Franchise hanging by a thread, league completely discombobulated at the moment and no one cares? Is it wrong to suggest that maybe it's fairly telling about the importance of hockey in certain markets?
Oh come on stop playing naive
It doesn't sound like he was at a Yotes fan meeting. I gues they don't have swimmingpools
Even in Detroit or Boston or Pittsburgh I am pretty sure you wont hear people talking about the lockout just like that on the street. It's still only the NHL, not the US-elections (or NBA ).
(for the record: I AM NOT SAYING PHOENIX IS A BAD HOCKEY CITY OR FANS DON'T CARE FOR THEIR TEAM!)
IMO if Snider is starting to get jumpy we will see mounting pressure (behind the sceens) on Bettman to get something done. Also the comments from players in today's Free Press reacting to Bettman's suggestion to a 2 week break in negotiations would suggest they are also getting jumpy. The tone was definately let's get something done soon, not we are willing to hold out to the bitter end to get what we want.
I'm an optimist but I still say something gets done soon.
Last year, Forbes estimated that the Panthers lost $7 million. Over the last nine seasons, they calculate the Panthers total losses at $68 million, an average deficit of $7.5 million per season.
Interestingly, the picture that Forbes paints is at odds with that presented by Broward County. Broward County was primarily responsible for the construction of the Panthers’ arena, and as a result gets to look at the books of the organization. According to the county auditor, the organization made $117.4 million in profit between 1998 and 2012.
The Panthers play in BB&T Center. The arena was built for $191 million and opened in 1998, it was financed through bonds issued by the County and repaid through a combination of tax and arena revenues. The County then inked a 30-year operating agreement with Panthers Hockey LLLP (now known as Sunrise Sports & Entertainment, or SSE).
As part of the agreement, SSE essentially controls the arena. They host 41 regular season home games (plus playoff games and any special/pre-season games), and between 70-100 other events in a calendar year. The county receives revenue sharing only if the Panthers organization hits a certain profit level, which was previously pegged at $12 million in a year.
The 2010 auditor’s report, which is available at the county website, shows a company that averaged $9.9 million per fiscal year between 1999 and 2008 (discounting the 2004-05 lockout year, for a moment). Those revenues dipped to just a hair over $1 million in 2005, the year of the NHL lockout. Interestingly, 2005 – due to the lockout – is the one year where Forbes doesn’t provide an estimate that shows the Panthers losing money, and it’s the lowest revenue-generating year the auditor records.
Interesting indeed.... NHLPA does have the financial papers though, they demanded them back in late August, and the NHLPA has admitted some teams are in need/trouble.
Also interesting is it's written by Jonnathan Willis... friggin guy is everywhere.
He founded Copper & Blue (the Edmonton version of Arctic Ice Hockey) and still is editor
He writes at Hockey Prospectus
He writes/edits at nhlnumbers and Oiler's Nation
Pretty sure he used to write for ESPN and the score too
I had an interesting conversation with a guy at work a couple of days ago. He was trying to tell me that the teams accountants fudge the numbers to make it look like a loss, when its not.
I didn't agree, but he also mentioned that alot of their operating expenses are right offs. I'm no expert in this, but I am aware that there are certain tax credits given to the teams in Canada, but I wasn't sure about the American teams.
Yesterday I was mentioning how it was good to get away from Hockey here in Phoenix then today I was at at train park with my family and we were playing beside a kids birthday party and there was a man with his Yotes ball cap on and all the parents were talking about the team. A couple of the women were kind of late 40's and talking about Doan and the Gym he works out at and "thats where all the players work out" could be heard with some chuckles from all the women. You could tell they were all local hockey fans and it was good to see.
It appears Willis updated this article and he made a mistake in his interpretation of the scope of the audit. I believe the profitability he is referencing was for The division of the arena operating company (AOC). In other words it's possible the arena made money while the NHL team lost money.
Update
As Erin Bolen points out at SBNation, the audit by Broward County is limited to financial date for the Arena Operating Company, the division of Sunrise Sports & Entertainment.
Meetings resuming on Monday. Which I'll take as a positive.
He can deny it all he wants in the media, but it sure sounds like Philly's Snider is getting a bit frustrated with this stalemate as well. Maybe that will generate some movement.
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