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Phoenix LXIV: Will You Still Need Me, Will You Still Read Me, on Thread LXIV?

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Old
11-16-2012, 06:33 PM
  #751
CasualFan
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Alright we're almost there. Again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Slashers98 View Post
The Phoenix Coyotes: Things Get Messier In Glendale:http://thehockeywriters.com/the-phoe...r-in-glendale/ I tried to sum up the situation in Glendale as best as I could.
FYI: Hat tip generally implies that someone sought you out and provided you with information that was intended to be further disseminated. I certainly did not do that. I didn't consent or authorize you to scrape my words from this forum and drop them into your article. What you did is generally referred to as plagiarism.

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11-16-2012, 07:28 PM
  #752
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Originally Posted by ajmidd12 View Post
Will you stop with the list?

Your list may have had a few lucky breaks, but for the most part it is wrong. GWI has more than enough fuel to kill this deal now what with the mismanagement of the funding and backdoor deals going on.

Sorry Coyotes fans, the fat lady has just finished her warmup.
ajm,

Please don't talk down to me like that. Someone else brought up "The List" and I replied. Also, it is far from "wrong". Thanks in advance.

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11-16-2012, 07:52 PM
  #753
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Originally Posted by KevyD View Post
ajm,

Please don't talk down to me like that. Someone else brought up "The List" and I replied. Also, it is far from "wrong". Thanks in advance.
You're entitled to your opinions, no matter how wrong and misguided they may be.

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11-16-2012, 07:56 PM
  #754
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You're entitled to your opinions, no matter how wrong and misguided they may be.
So much for not talking down to me.


Last edited by OttawaRoughRiderFan: 11-16-2012 at 08:01 PM.
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11-16-2012, 08:20 PM
  #755
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Originally Posted by KevyD View Post
ajm,

Please don't talk down to me like that. Someone else brought up "The List" and I replied. Also, it is far from "wrong". Thanks in advance.
The list "was what it was" many moons ago. Crashed and burned with all the others back in the early 40's, 50's or 60's threads not reallly sure now.

This thing is becoming a disaster of municipal proportions.

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11-16-2012, 08:25 PM
  #756
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I have never used this v-cash thing.

Yes, this part of the post is sarcastic. Could we bet v-cash for Beasley to be indicted or not indicted? you know some form of hypothetical bet, over/under type deal.

All bets aside. Wasn't Skeete the assistant city manager before? If Eduord is indicted could Horatio go down with the ship too?

I am getting pretty excited that the COG could vote and sign off on the lease. This will begin all the fun many of us have been waiting for.

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11-16-2012, 09:15 PM
  #757
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Starting to think they'll just end up folding. No way they recover from this stoppage and apparently they can't relocate.

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11-16-2012, 09:17 PM
  #758
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Starting to think they'll just end up folding. No way they recover from this stoppage and apparently they can't relocate.
"Contraction" - 1st suggested by Cassie Campbell and laughed about by many.

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11-17-2012, 12:40 AM
  #759
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CasualFan View Post
Alright we're almost there. Again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slashers98 View Post
The Phoenix Coyotes: Things Get Messier In Glendale:http://thehockeywriters.com/the-phoe...r-in-glendale/ I tried to sum up the situation in Glendale as best as I could.


FYI: Hat tip generally implies that someone sought you out and provided you with information that was intended to be further disseminated. I certainly did not do that. I didn't consent or authorize you to scrape my words from this forum and drop them into your article. What you did is generally referred to as plagiarism.

There's a very entertaining rebuttal to that article available....... but decorum (and taking the high road) prevents me from posting a link to it.

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Old
11-17-2012, 06:14 AM
  #760
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The complete failure of fiduciary duty here is approving a contract prior to resolving GF balance and inappropriate fund transfer issues. The city received an audit showing their former City Manager cooked the books in what appears to be a crude (and likely criminal) version of a ponzi scheme. They don't know what their true GF balance is. Might want to get that sorted out before you sign off on any more contracts, particularly one for 1/3 billion dollars in additional liability that was primarily negotiated by that former City Manager. Regardless of whether they are reelected, retiring, etc, the approach in Glendale is rather unique. A competent council would be cleaning up old business. And there is no bigger spill than the fund fraud.

Arm's Length Principal is pretty straight forward. To preserve market value, the buyer and seller have no relationship. If the meetings occurred as Jones describes, it could be an irritation. I'm not familiar with AZ contract/procurement law to know what the regulations are. Maybe there aren't any regulations at all. Either way, it's still pretty great if it turns out that some members of the city council did meet with Jamison. Maybe they should mix in a COI orientation once in a while.

Bundles are probably not as straight forward, if I understand what Jones is trying to say. In this transaction, JIG is a series of LLCs. But none of them have substantial physical assets. The value of JIG is it's ability to assemble contracts. A handful of those contracts would be with Glendale. In those contracts, the ability to assign, and the counterparty ability to prevent an assignment, is where many opportunities reside. I don't know if they are necessarily illegal opportunities or if there are AZ regulations on public contracts in this area. But if you can bundle the contracts together and the city allows the bundle to be freely assigned, then JIG would have liquidity.

The meeting reinforced the plain fact that none of these people are even remotely qualified for their positions and their Leg.Aides must be equally worthless. They do not understand elementary governance concepts, they do not perceive fiscal impacts, and they would all flunk Accounting 101. Scruggs is the only one with even a ballpark idea of what is going on.


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11-17-2012, 08:12 AM
  #761
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas L View Post
The complete failure of fiduciary duty here is approving a contract prior to resolving GF balance and inappropriate fund transfer issues. The city received an audit showing their former City Manager cooked the books in what appears to be a crude (and likely criminal) version of a ponzi scheme. They don't know what their true GF balance is. Might want to get that sorted out before you sign off on any more contracts, particularly one for 1/3 billion dollars in additional liability that was primarily negotiated by that former City Manager. Regardless of whether they are reelected, retiring, etc, the approach in Glendale is rather unique. A competent council would be cleaning up old business. And there is no bigger spill than the fund fraud.

Arm's Length Principal is pretty straight forward. To preserve market value, the buyer and seller have no relationship. If the meetings occurred as Jones describes, it could be an irritation. I'm not familiar with AZ contract/procurement law to know what the regulations are. Maybe there aren't any regulations at all. Either way, it's still pretty great if it turns out that some members of the city council did meet with Jamison. Maybe they should mix in a COI orientation once in a while.

Bundles are probably not as straight forward, if I understand what Jones is trying to say. In this transaction, JIG is a series of LLCs. But none of them have substantial physical assets. The value of JIG is it's ability to assemble contracts. A handful of those contracts would be with Glendale. In those contracts, the ability to assign, and the counterparty ability to prevent an assignment, is where many opportunities reside. I don't know if they are necessarily illegal opportunities or if there are AZ regulations on public contracts in this area. But if you can bundle the contracts together and the city allows the bundle to be freely assigned, then JIG would have liquidity.

The meeting reinforced the plain fact that none of these people are even remotely qualified for their positions and their Leg.Aides must be equally worthless. They do not understand elementary governance concepts, they do not perceive fiscal impacts, and they would all flunk Accounting 101. Scruggs is the only one with even a ballpark idea of what is going on.

I think you are bang on. Thanks for your great analysis!

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Old
11-17-2012, 08:52 AM
  #762
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I can see them ramming this through, knowing the possible ramifications, then when it DOES go through the ramifications, Clarke and co saying to who or whatever interests "hey, we did our part, we put it through-we've done our responsibility, sorry it's going to end up going to court/overturned/shredded 7 ways to Sunday, but it's not our problem anymore"

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11-17-2012, 09:20 AM
  #763
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
I can see them ramming this through, knowing the possible ramifications, then when it DOES go through the ramifications, Clarke and co saying to who or whatever interests "hey, we did our part, we put it through-we've done our responsibility, sorry it's going to end up going to court/overturned/shredded 7 ways to Sunday, but it's not our problem anymore"
I agree with this. I think that they'll try to approve this lease before the council term ends, but I can't see it going smoothly after that. It seems likely that Jamison will have a fairly antagonistic mayor and council to deal with thereafter, with the following possible negative outcomes:

1) The new council overturns the lease before it is finalized and signed.
2) A petition drive is mounted to send this to a referendum, putting the deal in limbo.
3) A legal challenge is mounted to overturn this on the basis of the gift clause.

I think that likelihood of at least one of these happening is quite high. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that Jamison sees this. Maybe he has no options, because his investors won't accept any less in the lease and the NHL won't reduce the sale price. But I think that unless he finds a way to alter the deal and his relationship with opponents in Glendale, I think this will end badly.

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Old
11-17-2012, 11:15 AM
  #764
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas L View Post
The city received an audit showing their former City Manager cooked the books in what appears to be a crude (and likely criminal) version of a ponzi scheme.... A competent council would be cleaning up old business. And there is no bigger spill than the fund fraud.
... umm, ya, you'd kinda think huh? The 4 of them are clearly in complete denial, beyond incompetent, dangerous. Should be & likely will be completely shutdown if they try & force a vote on ANY kind of an agreement. Hell, even if its one whereby Jamisons dropped his demands from $320M to $20.00 over 20 years to manage the arena. Like, just dont bother!. Deal with replacing the funds removed from the GF & trust funds, and God only knows where else?. Go get yourselves some sharp practising criminal attorneys... a dartboard featuring countries that are unlikely to sign extradition treaties with the United States of Merica' anytime soon and start tossin Baby.... Andorra, Bhutan, Gabon, Western Samoa.... I hear Laos is real nice.

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11-17-2012, 11:23 AM
  #765
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
I agree with this. I think that they'll try to approve this lease before the council term ends, but I can't see it going smoothly after that. It seems likely that Jamison will have a fairly antagonistic mayor and council to deal with thereafter, with the following possible negative outcomes:

1) The new council overturns the lease before it is finalized and signed.
2) A petition drive is mounted to send this to a referendum, putting the deal in limbo.
3) A legal challenge is mounted to overturn this on the basis of the gift clause.

I think that likelihood of at least one of these happening is quite high. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that Jamison sees this. Maybe he has no options, because his investors won't accept any less in the lease and the NHL won't reduce the sale price. But I think that unless he finds a way to alter the deal and his relationship with opponents in Glendale, I think this will end badly.
Does it stretch the imagination to think that the new council could enlist the services of GWI to help them fight to overturn the lease?

GJ must realize that the new council will use whatever resources are at their disposal to fight this lease that the lame duck council will try to push thru.

It still amazes me that the outgoing council (at least half of them anyway) could make a decision of this financial magnitude without giving 2nd thought to the wishes of the new council of the future of Glendale.

GWI and the COG working together towards the same goal..... It's bizzaro world

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11-17-2012, 11:37 AM
  #766
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Does it stretch the imagination to think that the new council could enlist the services of GWI to help them fight to overturn the lease?

GJ must realize that the new council will use whatever resources are at their disposal to fight this lease that the lame duck council will try to push thru.

It still amazes me that the outgoing council (at least half of them anyway) could make a decision of this financial magnitude without giving 2nd thought to the wishes of the new council of the future of Glendale.

GWI and the COG working together towards the same goal..... It's bizzaro world
I doubt it. If the new mayor and council want to overturn the lease, then I don't think they'll have much difficulty doing that without the GWI's intervention. First, I doubt that the lease will be executed very soon after it is approved by city council, leaving time for the new council members to overturn the actions of this council. Second, the new mayor and council could lend support to citizens who would seek to petition to put the deal to a referendum. It seems likely that a new petition would have much broader support, considering that budget and staff cuts are likely worrying city staffers and their families, and those that opposed the tax are likely going to be inclined to ensure that their increased sales taxes are not going into the pockets of Jamison's ownership group. A new petition drive would not rely on a dyspneic old man in 110 degree heat. If the petition is successful, this whole deal goes into limbo, and I think the NHL would then pull the plug.

The only viable solution that I can see is for Jamison and the NHL to negotiate a deal with the incoming mayor and council. They have shown no inclination to do that. Even worse, after stonewalling the incoming mayor Jamison thought it was a bright idea to meet with the "pro" council members separate from other council members. Two of the council members with whom he met will be gone within a few weeks. Duh!

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Old
11-17-2012, 11:51 AM
  #767
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If the new mayor and council want to overturn the lease, then I don't think they'll have much difficulty doing that without the GWI's intervention... Jamison thought it was a bright idea to meet with the "pro" council members separate from other council members.
Ya, I agree with the first part there for sure. Be it demands for a Referendum or whatever other mechanisms they'd have at their disposal if in fact they even need to challenge it at all what with the issues of timing & ratification that would work against the deal being executed. Further, I dont think they'll have the votes to pass it what with one of the Gang of 4 facing recall. Unlikely she'd vote it up.... as for the latter, good point. By design that in dealing exclusively with & catering to the pro arena and outgoing factions on Council, Jamisons shown his hand. Now would be the time to step up and actually respond to Weiers "open letter" of a couple of months ago.

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11-17-2012, 12:11 PM
  #768
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I doubt it. If the new mayor and council want to overturn the lease, then I don't think they'll have much difficulty doing that without the GWI's intervention. First, I doubt that the lease will be executed very soon after it is approved by city council, leaving time for the new council members to overturn the actions of this council. Second, the new mayor and council could lend support to citizens who would seek to petition to put the deal to a referendum.
Could you elaborate on precisely what you mean here by "execution" of the lease?

From my uninformed perspective, I understood approval of the lease by the council set the AMF in motion; period.

Just curious about the "execution" component to which you refer.

I agree with your train of thought; I just always believed final approval implied execution by default.


Last edited by checkerdome: 11-17-2012 at 12:27 PM.
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11-17-2012, 12:16 PM
  #769
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Just curious about the "execution" component to which you refer.
I'm pretty sure in the Coyotes case it involves lethal injection.....

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11-17-2012, 12:21 PM
  #770
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Anyone know if they called the race in the Cactus district yet? Usually elections are certified 10 days after the election itself once all the absentee and provisional ballots are counted

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11-17-2012, 02:52 PM
  #771
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Originally Posted by preissingg View Post
Could you elaborate on precisely what you mean here by "execution" of the lease?

From my uninformed perspective, I understood approval of the lease by the council set the AMF in motion; period.

Just curious about the "execution" component to which you refer.

I agree with your train of thought; I just always believed final approval implied execution by default.
As I understand it, city council will be asked to pass an ordinance authorizing the city manager to finalize and sign a lease with the "Arena Manager" and the "Team Owner".

The ordinance wouldn't go into effect right away (I think it will take effect after 30 days), because it's not an emergency. During that time, citizens could mount a petition to send it to a referendum. Even if that doesn't happen, the lease contracts will not go into effect until they are signed by all three parties (COG, Arena Manager and Team Owner). Before that happens, there has to be due diligence and the NHL has to sell the team to Jamison's investment group. My sense is that the NHL will not want to complete the sale to the Jamison investment group until there is clear sailing on the lease. During those delays, a new mayor and council will be sworn in (at the first council meeting in December, I think) and could overturn the motion passed by the previous city council.

That's why I think that this plan by Jamison and the gang of four council members is ultimately doomed, and could spell the end of efforts to keep the Coyotes in Glendale. It seems to signal that neither Jamison nor the NHL have any intention of negotiating better terms to help out Glendale. In that case, I think that there are too many opposing groups and too many mechanisms to kill the deal. A rushed passing of a motion in favor of this lease won't circumvent that, and is likely to just increase the opposition within city council and with the public. It's simply a very bad idea.

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11-17-2012, 02:53 PM
  #772
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Incredible that Phoenix still has a hockey team.

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11-17-2012, 03:54 PM
  #773
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Quote:
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From my uninformed perspective, I understood approval of the lease by the council set the AMF in motion; period.

Just curious about the "execution" component to which you refer.

I agree with your train of thought; I just always believed final approval implied execution by default.
Nope. They approved the lease in June, and here we are.

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11-17-2012, 04:16 PM
  #774
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Nope. They approved the lease in June, and here we are.
Indeed. However, wasn't the June lease still missing some parts and was actually incomplete?

Wouldn't this current lease be complete in its entirety and ready to be executed, unlike the incomplete lease from June?

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11-17-2012, 04:21 PM
  #775
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Anyone know if they called the race in the Cactus district yet? Usually elections are certified 10 days after the election itself once all the absentee and provisional ballots are counted
Still counting. Maricopa County apparently had 100,000+ ballots left to count at the deadline; the delay's bad enough that it's starting to make national news.

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