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Everybody's talking at me; I don't hear a word they're saying (CBA/Lockout XXIX)

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Old
11-17-2012, 09:15 AM
  #726
demonsurge
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Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Just FYI, the average NHL career doesn't even begin to approach 10 years.

Sure, a lot if them make fantastically good money, but as the saying goes, nothing comes for free.

Carry on.
http://www.quanthockey.com/Distribut...erLengthGP.php

Backing up what you're saying with data.

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11-17-2012, 09:16 AM
  #727
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Since I'm ever an optimist I see some positive signs. Both sides seem to be getting jumpy which is a good thing as Fehr and Bettman need to be pressured by their members, since both seem to have lost some perspective on the big picture. The article on Snider is very positive IMO, as well the players seem to be losing patience. Today's Winnipeg Free Press has quite a few comments from players reacting to Bettman's suggestion of a 2 week break in negotiations. While they are holding to the union line, the overall tone is something needs to get done soon so we don't miss any more hockey, not we are willing to hold out to the bitter end to get what we want. IMO pressure is mounting on both sides and soon we will see a breaking point.

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Old
11-17-2012, 09:23 AM
  #728
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Originally Posted by demonsurge View Post
http://www.quanthockey.com/Distribut...erLengthGP.php

Backing up what you're saying with data.
Thank you, good find.

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11-17-2012, 09:33 AM
  #729
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Jacobs has so much pull around the league it's sickening. It has been clear to see over the last few years.

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Old
11-17-2012, 09:33 AM
  #730
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Originally Posted by hockeyisforeveryone View Post
The players are not that stupid, don't you think they've got friends, much family, advisors, agents, etc. that they consult with about the situation? Please for people to insinuate 3 times each page that the families etc. are that ignorant is preposterous.

No one here has answered why 80% of posters in this thread hate/blame the players. Most of the people here I've never seen comment on actual hockey in the NHL forum. Do you really love professional hockey or just here to spout blind hatred for the "imbecilic" players you supposedly care about watching play? Are you just jealous haters? Oh wait, you love the emblem on the sweater, not the players? As time passes new players fill that jersey, they make a team what it is. Players are not going to be taken advantage of like the 1950's.

It's impossible for players, who make an avereage of 2.5 mil a year and can only work 10 years, to be the greedy ones here. All they ask is for a shred of respect and some consolation as a sign of who truly is the NHL, just like a factory is run by its workers, a factory IS its workers. Why can't the owners bend just a little and get the fans back their games? It's not the players fault the owners are so cutthroat by not properly sharing revenues among themselves. Bettman and the owners make me sick.
Does anyone in the BOH even comprehend that a billionaire makes 1000 times that of a millionaire?? It's like I make 30,000 a year and you make 30 million, how can you not pay for our dinner? Owners should view their team as entertainment, If I pay $1500 a year for hockey a billionaire can can lose 50 million, that's fair right? It should be but in this sick world we glorify the sociopath mega-capitalists as heroes and philanthropists while demonizing a group of elite athletes that just want their fair share.

There is some bad blood brewing and I won't be suprised if there is no season. Why can't the blind, arrogant, greedy, filthy rich owners see how little they need to concede to get these boys playing again? I blame the owners for this lockout, 100%. Sometimes I feel I could care less if there is an NHL ever. I wouldn't play for these fat pigs. The owners don't deserve to be involved in this league.
People are against the players because they seem more about revenge for the last lockout than willing to make a deal. Example Ian White Bettman is an idiot we should have had this settled over the summer not fighting over it now and missing games. Well Ian your fearless leader didn't want to meet over the summer so that's on the players big guy. And anybody can be greedy no matter what they make.

How in the heck you can compare a guy making $15/hr in a factory to a guy making millions just blows my mind there is no comparison. You act like the owners are asking the players to play for $50k a year they are not. Also what gives you or anyone else the right to tell someone how to spend their money. If all an owner expects is for his team to turn some kind of profit what's the problem. In your mind he should just give up X millions a year for our entertainment and so a bunch of spoiled players can make a few extra grand. I'm sorry if I am an owner and am going to be giving out millions for no return I'll give it to charity not to a bunch of entitled hockey players.

And then your sense of entitlement. So I guess whenever you go out with friends you make whoever has the biggest salary pay. Because hey they have more than you why should you pay. I am disgusted by the greed and stupidity of the players and I hope the season is cancelled so I can get my season seat money back and not give another dime to these greedy players and owners.

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Old
11-17-2012, 09:48 AM
  #731
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Originally Posted by rdawg1234 View Post
The vast majority do that, and I respect them for it.

I kind of think less of the players that take it personally and send out personal attacks to the owners and flip out on twitter expecting sympathy from everyone.

Cant remember the specific player, but I recall one player tweeting about not wanting to take a cut/lose money and then posted his new high-end car right afterwards
Clowe did the same thing joking around about somebody not hitting his Aston Martin the parking lot of a charity game. For some reason it was greeted with much less hooplah.

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Old
11-17-2012, 09:48 AM
  #732
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Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
The decisionmakers for the PA are sharper than the know-it-alls on this board. There's 5 out of 30 that spent 4+ years at Ivy League Schools. What's the proportion on this board? 2 from Harvard, 2 from Princeton. Bettman graduated from Cornell so did Douglas Murray...

Besides that you have many others on the Negotiation Committee that spent years in top Colleges... Darche is a McGill graduate that won the CIS outstanding Student athlete prize. Brad Boyes won the CHL Scholastic Player of the Year Award. I don't think their intellectual skills should be called into question.
When I went to university I shared classes with the varsity hockey players. Believe me when I say most of them needed math classes and help with even the most routine educational matters.

A few (Maybe 2-3 per season) did take their studies seriously (And I had the highest respect for them because of it) but most just wanted to play hockey and let their buddies take notes and do all the heavy lifting.

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Old
11-17-2012, 09:51 AM
  #733
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Originally Posted by hockeyisforeveryone View Post
No one here has answered why 80% of posters in this thread hate/blame the players. Most of the people here I've never seen comment on actual hockey in the NHL forum. Do you really love professional hockey or just here to spout blind hatred for the "imbecilic" players you supposedly care about watching play? Are you just jealous haters? Oh wait, you love the emblem on the sweater, not the players? As time passes new players fill that jersey, they make a team what it is. Players are not going to be taken advantage of like the 1950's.
As a relative newcomer to this folder I'm also surprised that it's so one-sided. To me both sides are equally greedy, to put it mildly.

Fans are always going to be predisposed to siding against the players in labor disputes when players are making over $1 million per season and all fans fantasize about being players. Yes, the owners make more money obviously but most weren't born into the sport, they had to make a ton of money from somewhere else to get into hockey.

Plus if you were/are a baseball fan in the '90's, you're predisposed to hating Fehr anyway. Just like if you're a hockey fan you're predisposed to hating Bettman for going 3-3 in lockouts. That's why I think both sides are equally culpable, neither's made a real attempt to negotiate, the owners have just masked it better with PR moves that really don't 'give' the players anything, they just give the owners a few pennies less. Both sides want one-sided deals and aren't willing to give anything, both sides can take a freaking hike.

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Old
11-17-2012, 09:52 AM
  #734
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Originally Posted by hockeyisforeveryone View Post
The players are not that stupid, don't you think they've got friends, much family, advisors, agents, etc. that they consult with about the situation? Please for people to insinuate 3 times each page that the families etc. are that ignorant is preposterous.

No one here has answered why 80% of posters in this thread hate/blame the players. Most of the people here I've never seen comment on actual hockey in the NHL forum. Do you really love professional hockey or just here to spout blind hatred for the "imbecilic" players you supposedly care about watching play? Are you just jealous haters? Oh wait, you love the emblem on the sweater, not the players? As time passes new players fill that jersey, they make a team what it is. Players are not going to be taken advantage of like the 1950's.

It's impossible for players, who make an avereage of 2.5 mil a year and can only work 10 years, to be the greedy ones here. All they ask is for a shred of respect and some consolation as a sign of who truly is the NHL, just like a factory is run by its workers, a factory IS its workers. Why can't the owners bend just a little and get the fans back their games? It's not the players fault the owners are so cutthroat by not properly sharing revenues among themselves. Bettman and the owners make me sick.

Does anyone in the BOH even comprehend that a billionaire makes 1000 times that of a millionaire?? It's like I make 30,000 a year and you make 30 million, how can you not pay for our dinner? Owners should view their team as entertainment, If I pay $1500 a year for hockey a billionaire can can lose 50 million, that's fair right? It should be but in this sick world we glorify the sociopath mega-capitalists as heroes and philanthropists while demonizing a group of elite athletes that just want their fair share.

There is some bad blood brewing and I won't be suprised if there is no season. Why can't the blind, arrogant, greedy, filthy rich owners see how little they need to concede to get these boys playing again? I blame the owners for this lockout, 100%. Sometimes I feel I could care less if there is an NHL ever. I wouldn't play for these fat pigs. The owners don't deserve to be involved in this league.

I don't what it is like in your world, but in the REAL world factory workers don't tell factory owners how to run their factories!

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Old
11-17-2012, 09:55 AM
  #735
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Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
Since I'm ever an optimist I see some positive signs. Both sides seem to be getting jumpy which is a good thing as Fehr and Bettman need to be pressured by their members, since both seem to have lost some perspective on the big picture. The article on Snider is very positive IMO, as well the players seem to be losing patience. Today's Winnipeg Free Press has quite a few comments from players reacting to Bettman's suggestion of a 2 week break in negotiations. While they are holding to the union line, the overall tone is something needs to get done soon so we don't miss any more hockey, not we are willing to hold out to the bitter end to get what we want. IMO pressure is mounting on both sides and soon we will see a breaking point.
From your lips to god's ears. Unfortunately I've become very pessimistic and I see both sides 'cracking' publicly as just something that gives an excuse for the hard-liners in each camp to say...see, just hold on a little while longer, they're cracking. And then the standoff continues.

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Old
11-17-2012, 09:59 AM
  #736
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Fascinating article out of Philly. Donald Fehr is drooling right now after reading that, no doubt.

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Old
11-17-2012, 09:59 AM
  #737
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Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
Since I'm ever an optimist I see some positive signs. Both sides seem to be getting jumpy which is a good thing as Fehr and Bettman need to be pressured by their members, since both seem to have lost some perspective on the big picture. The article on Snider is very positive IMO, as well the players seem to be losing patience. Today's Winnipeg Free Press has quite a few comments from players reacting to Bettman's suggestion of a 2 week break in negotiations. While they are holding to the union line, the overall tone is something needs to get done soon so we don't miss any more hockey, not we are willing to hold out to the bitter end to get what we want. IMO pressure is mounting on both sides and soon we will see a breaking point.
Me too.

There actually might, just might be NHL hockey sometime in 2013-2014 season.

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Old
11-17-2012, 10:05 AM
  #738
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Fascinating article out of Philly. Donald Fehr is drooling right now after reading that, no doubt.
Part of me is afraid that encouraging Fehr's current behavior will only feed the overall dysfunction of this entire mess.

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11-17-2012, 10:05 AM
  #739
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I don't what it is like in your world, but in the REAL world factory workers don't tell factory owners how to run their factories!
How exactly are the players telling the owners how to "run" the NHL? This is collective bargaining - it pertains to working conditions, and other industries have unions too, the only difference is that in the NHL the players ARE the product that is being sold and marketed.

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Old
11-17-2012, 10:10 AM
  #740
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I still think we see a Steve Fehr call to Bill on Saturday or Sunday sans the Donald / Bettman egos that pushes this forward in some fashion.
Katie Strang ‏@KatieStrangESPN
#CBA Bill Daly and Steve Fehr spoke today. Plan to talk again over weekend to determine next step in bargaining process

I still think 90% of people here are overly pessimistic. I think we see some talks next week that push this forward. The only concern I have is the article out of Philly making Fehr more headstrong.

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11-17-2012, 10:14 AM
  #741
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Originally Posted by hockeyisforeveryone View Post
The players are not that stupid, don't you think they've got friends, much family, advisors, agents, etc. that they consult with about the situation? Please for people to insinuate 3 times each page that the families etc. are that ignorant is preposterous.

No one here has answered why 80% of posters in this thread hate/blame the players. Most of the people here I've never seen comment on actual hockey in the NHL forum. Do you really love professional hockey or just here to spout blind hatred for the "imbecilic" players you supposedly care about watching play? Are you just jealous haters? Oh wait, you love the emblem on the sweater, not the players? As time passes new players fill that jersey, they make a team what it is. Players are not going to be taken advantage of like the 1950's.

It's impossible for players, who make an avereage of 2.5 mil a year and can only work 10 years, to be the greedy ones here. All they ask is for a shred of respect and some consolation as a sign of who truly is the NHL, just like a factory is run by its workers, a factory IS its workers. Why can't the owners bend just a little and get the fans back their games? It's not the players fault the owners are so cutthroat by not properly sharing revenues among themselves. Bettman and the owners make me sick.

Does anyone in the BOH even comprehend that a billionaire makes 1000 times that of a millionaire?? It's like I make 30,000 a year and you make 30 million, how can you not pay for our dinner? Owners should view their team as entertainment, If I pay $1500 a year for hockey a billionaire can can lose 50 million, that's fair right? It should be but in this sick world we glorify the sociopath mega-capitalists as heroes and philanthropists while demonizing a group of elite athletes that just want their fair share.

There is some bad blood brewing and I won't be suprised if there is no season. Why can't the blind, arrogant, greedy, filthy rich owners see how little they need to concede to get these boys playing again? I blame the owners for this lockout, 100%. Sometimes I feel I could care less if there is an NHL ever. I wouldn't play for these fat pigs. The owners don't deserve to be involved in this league.
The fact you currently perceive this ridiculous glorification of capitalists speaks to a much larger problem given that the entire "occupy" movement was all about demonizing capitalists. As was our recently elected presidents campaign. The fact you perceive a glorification of capitalists when its been almost nothing but demonization for the past 4 years is pretty shocking and speaks to how out of touch many have become. The exact opposite of what you say is true, and staring you in the face, and you cant even notice it?

Playing hockey and working out is a lot easier than going to school, studying hard, working hard, and building a successful life or business completely on your own. Oh the homework, and paperwork, and huge bills. What's really not fair is most people spend their entire lives doing that stuff trying to become successful while hockey players can make millions easily, essentially because they hit the genetic lottery. Why cant god or evolution be fair?! Id have let someone break a few of my bones if it meant not having to pay damn near $100,000 in college loans. And the things normal people do are a lot more beneficial to society than becoming a hockey player.

You're idolizing entertainers instead of entrepreneaurs and innovators, and equating fame to importance and intellect.

The truly important people in all this are the innovators. The people who became successful doing something other than hockey that allowed them to invest in our favorite sport. People like Ron burkle who's grocery stores helped feed millions on the west coast, or ed snider who brought vast amounts of info to the masses with his IT networks, Or terry pegula whose natural gas company employed thousands and helped make energy cheaper. Yes its the evil owners who have actually done the most real good in their lives.

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Old
11-17-2012, 10:17 AM
  #742
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Fascinating article out of Philly. Donald Fehr is drooling right now after reading that, no doubt.
Dreger seems to throw a little cold water on the notion though


Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger
@Aportzline @DNFlyers. Good example of an owner who wants to play...badly. But, I'm told Snider remains strongly in Bettman's corner.

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11-17-2012, 10:22 AM
  #743
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Dreger seems to throw a little cold water on the notion though


Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger
@Aportzline @DNFlyers. Good example of an owner who wants to play...badly. But, I'm told Snider remains strongly in Bettman's corner.
You sound suprised?

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11-17-2012, 10:22 AM
  #744
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How much is the NHL paying Dreger to defend them at every turn? Every time someone says something about the NHL or Bettman,Dreger has an issue with it.

Quote:
@Aportzline @DNFlyers. Good example of an owner who wants to play...badly. But, I'm told Snider remains strongly in Bettman's corner
https://twitter.com/DarrenDreger/sta...10538127691777

Of course,Snider is in Bettman's corner.

Quote:
Not a good time for Bettman. No wonder he suggested a moratorium.
https://twitter.com/cotsonika/status/269819156466126849

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11-17-2012, 10:23 AM
  #745
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Katie Strang ‏@KatieStrangESPN
#CBA Bill Daly and Steve Fehr spoke today. Plan to talk again over weekend to determine next step in bargaining process

I still think 90% of people here are overly pessimistic. I think we see some talks next week that push this forward. The only concern I have is the article out of Philly making Fehr more headstrong.
Well, I don't see how you can be optimistic when they still aren't talking the same language when it pertains to the money split. And if you see the startribune article on the numbers, Im sure you would be pessimistic too.

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11-17-2012, 10:29 AM
  #746
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Poor poor Gary

Just Go Away Gary

Quote:
The case against Bettman in one sentence: The NHL sacrificed an entire season so they could reimagine their entire salary structure … and only seven years later, that "reimagining" went so poorly that they might have to sacrifice a second season because they need a mulligan.

That's all you need to know. I didn't even need to bring up the league's botched television deals, overexpansion, poorly picked markets, belated acknowledgement of the concussion epidemic, or more incredibly, how they stupidly forgot to limit the length of contracts. This is a commissioner who fought like hell to create a hard cap, and after it finally got approved, was too dense to remember to include a rule that contracts couldn't last longer than five or six years (like what the NBA does). That led to team after team circumventing that cap by giving out guaranteed deals lasting as long as 15 YEARS. Really, didn't see that loophole getting exploited, Gary? Never came up as you were hashing things out?
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...t-go-away-gary

Bill Simmons really gave it to Gary. Good for him.

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11-17-2012, 10:30 AM
  #747
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Crosby said the union would never agree to allow rookie contracts to be extended to 5 years (this is not actually in the league's proposal).

Fehr told Bettman he didn't have anything to say and didn't know how to proceed.

Bettman answered by saying to call him back in two weeks.

Ian White called Bettman an idiot.

Mark Recchi said the PA should smarten up and take the deal.

Eric Lindros said whatever Don Fehr said two months ago.

The players don't want to take two weeks off and told Fehr to go negotiate again.

The NHL hasn't responded yet.

Fehr told the players that if they want to continue, it's going to hurt financially a lot.

Latendresse expressed regret about not signing two earlier offers.

Bunch of other guys said the NHL sucks and Recchi just wants to get a job with the NHL.

Bill Daly mailed a graph of what the NHLPA wants to Michael Russo. It's somewhere between 64% and 77% in year one, depending on whose projections you believe.


That's where we're at.


I don't even know where to start at how incompetent this league and its players are. Why don't they learn from a real league in the NFL?

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11-17-2012, 10:36 AM
  #748
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Poor poor Gary

Just Go Away Gary



http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...t-go-away-gary

Bill Simmons really gave it to Gary. Good for him.

Simmons is back to liking hockey? Let me guess . When the Bruins won the cup?he pissed all over the NHL for years.

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Old
11-17-2012, 10:37 AM
  #749
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Bill Simmons is so heavily involved in this process I'm glad he wrote that hockey writeup. Oh it's just a casual commentary in a football prediction page.

So can I quote Damien Cox and say "Go away Fehr?" Already done I suppose.

And to say that either side is totally unified is a lie. That would be saying Lindros had no part of the NHLPA's current makeup. False.

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Old
11-17-2012, 10:41 AM
  #750
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The PA is cracking, and the owners are cracking, so get a deal done guys...

I can just imagine the stuff going on behind the scenes...

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