HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
National Hockey League Talk Discuss NHL players, teams, games, and the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

Everybody's talking at me; I don't hear a word they're saying (CBA/Lockout XXIX)

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-17-2012, 10:46 AM
  #751
berklon
Registered User
 
berklon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 858
vCash: 500
It's hard to argue Bill Simmons on his points. All one has to do is look at the situation the NHL is in right now re: lockout, over-expansion, many poor markets, terrible TV contract, horrible TV ratings and the Coyotes fiasco. Fehr only has a hand in the lockout - everything else is pure Bettman/owners.

Many here fell for the illusion that the NHL was strong and growing. I didn't believe it for a second - it was just slapping a fresh coat of paint over the bush-league known as the NHL.

Every bad thing looks good on them right now.

berklon is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 10:54 AM
  #752
JMT21
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 850
vCash: 500
The big 3 each pay players anywhere from 45% - 50% of team revenue. Not 100% sure on the MLB figure.. I guessed at 45%.

There is simply no comparison between the big 3 and NHL.

TV revenue alone is the great divide. Not including regional deals for the MLB & NBA.

NFL : 100M per team per season. Enough to cover at least 85%-90% of team payroll.

MLB : 50M per team per season. Covers 100% payroll for some of the bottom feeder teams.

NBA : 31M per team per season. Likely enough to cover 1/2 of team payroll for most teams.

NHL : 10M per team. Not enough to cover 25% of payroll for those that spend to the floor.

The players (IMO) are pretty lucky to get offered 50% of HRR as league revenues in the NHL are completely dwarfed by the big 3.

Even if the NHL followed Fehr's dream of becoming cap-free like the MLB...... I'm not convinced at all the player salaries would rise considerably.

JMT21 is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 11:01 AM
  #753
Butch 19
King me
 
Butch 19's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: L.A. suburb
Country: United States
Posts: 9,124
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by berklon View Post
It's hard to argue Bill Simmons on his points. All one has to do is look at the situation the NHL is in right now re: lockout, over-expansion, many poor markets, terrible TV contract, horrible TV ratings and the Coyotes fiasco. Fehr only has a hand in the lockout - everything else is pure Bettman/owners.

Many here fell for the illusion that the NHL was strong and growing. I didn't believe it for a second - it was just slapping a fresh coat of paint over the bush-league known as the NHL.

Every bad thing looks good on them right now.
yeah, that's right, the NHL has made some stuuupid mistakes.

Now what? The players demand more of the same which hurts the league even more instead of changing the CBA to help out? (while they are being treated better than athletes in other much more profitable sports)

Aren't they all in this together?

Butch 19 is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 11:02 AM
  #754
Potrzebie
Registered User
 
Potrzebie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 942
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by thinicer View Post
How exactly are the players telling the owners how to "run" the NHL? This is collective bargaining - it pertains to working conditions, and other industries have unions too, the only difference is that in the NHL the players ARE the product that is being sold and marketed.
Well, they want to tell the league how much revenue sharing there should be and how it should be distributed, for one.

Potrzebie is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 11:11 AM
  #755
Bourne Endeavor
Moderator
HFBoards: Night's Watch
 
Bourne Endeavor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Country: Canada
Posts: 25,343
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyisforeveryone View Post
The players are not that stupid, don't you think they've got friends, much family, advisors, agents, etc. that they consult with about the situation? Please for people to insinuate 3 times each page that the families etc. are that ignorant is preposterous.

No one here has answered why 80% of posters in this thread hate/blame the players. Most of the people here I've never seen comment on actual hockey in the NHL forum. Do you really love professional hockey or just here to spout blind hatred for the "imbecilic" players you supposedly care about watching play? Are you just jealous haters? Oh wait, you love the emblem on the sweater, not the players? As time passes new players fill that jersey, they make a team what it is. Players are not going to be taken advantage of like the 1950's.

It's impossible for players, who make an avereage of 2.5 mil a year and can only work 10 years, to be the greedy ones here. All they ask is for a shred of respect and some consolation as a sign of who truly is the NHL, just like a factory is run by its workers, a factory IS its workers. Why can't the owners bend just a little and get the fans back their games? It's not the players fault the owners are so cutthroat by not properly sharing revenues among themselves. Bettman and the owners make me sick.

Does anyone in the BOH even comprehend that a billionaire makes 1000 times that of a millionaire?? It's like I make 30,000 a year and you make 30 million, how can you not pay for our dinner? Owners should view their team as entertainment, If I pay $1500 a year for hockey a billionaire can can lose 50 million, that's fair right? It should be but in this sick world we glorify the sociopath mega-capitalists as heroes and philanthropists while demonizing a group of elite athletes that just want their fair share.

There is some bad blood brewing and I won't be suprised if there is no season. Why can't the blind, arrogant, greedy, filthy rich owners see how little they need to concede to get these boys playing again? I blame the owners for this lockout, 100%. Sometimes I feel I could care less if there is an NHL ever. I wouldn't play for these fat pigs. The owners don't deserve to be involved in this league.
What sort of asinine logic is that? You realize billionaires earn their fortune, yes? To say they should throw away money simply because they can afford to reeks of jealously and entitlement. Amusingly, you accuse others of possessing those very attributes since they do not rally behind the "poor misunderstood player." What I find wholly ironic is we already know teams are losing money, yet you seem to think they ought to spent whatever the players demand. Probably not the best idea, champ.

Your factory comparison runs a little short after you consider those employee do not get to demand a specific salary and piss and moan when they do not get it. Incidentally, those "fat pigs" are the reason the NHL exists, and that is true of any large enterprise. Welcome to a capitalistic world.

Bourne Endeavor is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 11:16 AM
  #756
NinthSpoke06
Registered User
 
NinthSpoke06's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Chestnut Hill
Country: United States
Posts: 9,570
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
yeah, that's right, the NHL has made some stuuupid mistakes.

Now what? The players demand more of the same which hurts the league even more instead of changing the CBA to help out? (while they are being treated better than athletes in other much more profitable sports)

Aren't they all in this together?
Are you trying to say that "partners" don't try to squeeze out every last dollar from their "partner" even at the expense of all revenues?

Oh wait, the players only want to be called partners when they are negotiating their pay checks. When it comes down to the actual business aspects they don't give a **** and will bleed the league dry as long as they are making their money.

NinthSpoke06 is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 11:37 AM
  #757
Stuck in Socal
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 793
vCash: 500
Oh by the way, while on here majority of us fault both sides for the continuing lockout.

The general consenus on a bandwagon website like ESPN is that this is solely the owner's fault.

Actually it is Bettman's fault with the owners as his puppets.


Last edited by Stuck in Socal: 11-17-2012 at 11:42 AM.
Stuck in Socal is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 11:42 AM
  #758
McRib
2nd Rate Fan
 
McRib's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Saskatoon
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,806
vCash: 500
Y'know, I can't help to think that the NHL might've taken the NHLPA up on their "negotiate while playing under the old CBA offer" if the NHLPA's union head wasn't Don Fehr.

McRib is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 11:43 AM
  #759
KingBogo
Admitted Homer
 
KingBogo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 5,747
vCash: 783
The thing I don't get in this whole discussion, is why when someone posts an article supporting their position they expect it to carry any wieght with those who hold a different position. Journalistic integrity took a back seat long ago. Mostly what we see is shrills in the media, supporting their side and doing little more than acting as a propaganda machines. Good balanced articles and commentary are few and far between. The truth is complicated and lies somewhere in the middle, but that doesn't sell.

KingBogo is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 11:58 AM
  #760
CerebralGenesis
Registered User
 
CerebralGenesis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 23,707
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuck in Socal View Post
Oh by the way, while on here majority of us fault both sides for the continuing lockout.

The general consenus on a bandwagon website like ESPN is that this is solely the owner's fault.

Actually it is Bettman's fault with the owners as his puppets.
Ya...tells you all that you really need to know. If they can't take the time to do the homework about this, then I'm not sure I can take the time to take them seriously. Although I will say that isn't necessarily the majority.

CerebralGenesis is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 12:10 PM
  #761
pepty
Registered User
 
pepty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 10,837
vCash: 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
Since I'm ever an optimist I see some positive signs. Both sides seem to be getting jumpy which is a good thing as Fehr and Bettman need to be pressured by their members, since both seem to have lost some perspective on the big picture. The article on Snider is very positive IMO, as well the players seem to be losing patience. Today's Winnipeg Free Press has quite a few comments from players reacting to Bettman's suggestion of a 2 week break in negotiations. While they are holding to the union line, the overall tone is something needs to get done soon so we don't miss any more hockey, not we are willing to hold out to the bitter end to get what we want. IMO pressure is mounting on both sides and soon we will see a breaking point.
i agree that this could be good news if there is some back pressure from some of the owners who are more flexible than whichever owners are rumoured to have been angry that Bettman went too far in his proposals...and if the players are finally finding some way to exert pressure on their leadership to actually get serious and stop the game playing and negotiate.

It is not a good sign though if each side sees this pressure as a sign of weakness on the other side and an indication that they are about to crack if only they wait for "two more weeks".

By the way a lot of people with ties to the players such as Nick Kyproes said that the PA believe the Leagues best offer would come in December. I wonder if this little suggested moratorium has blown up that theory.

pepty is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 12:11 PM
  #762
whskybarJM
Registered User
 
whskybarJM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: ca
Country: United States
Posts: 922
vCash: 500
not sure if this has been posted, tuff if it has.

the last thing snider wants is to be taking a beating from a city who regards him as a legend. There is a reason everyone, even the old time players, still call him Mr. Snider. He has been getting bombed on the radio and streets for not throwing his weight around. Looks like the man is getting mad at the napoleon rat.

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/...HL_talks_.html

whskybarJM is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 12:15 PM
  #763
colchar
Registered User
 
colchar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,609
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PBPantherfan View Post
People are against the players because they seem more about revenge for the last lockout than willing to make a deal.
And Bettman isn't trying to make up for the mistakes he made the last time?


Quote:
Also what gives you or anyone else the right to tell someone how to spend their money.
What gives you or anyone else the right to tell people what labour conditions/contract conditions they should accept?


Quote:
In your mind he should just give up X millions a year for our entertainment and so a bunch of spoiled players can make a few extra grand.
But in your mind the players should give up millions in earnings for our entertainment just so a bunch of spoiled owners can make a few extra grand?

Quote:
I am disgusted by the greed and stupidity of the players

I am disgusted by the greed, stupidity, and pettiness of the owners and am also disgusted by those 'fans' who cannot see what the owners are doing here.

colchar is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 12:17 PM
  #764
colchar
Registered User
 
colchar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,609
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotaf7 View Post
I don't what it is like in your world, but in the REAL world factory workers don't tell factory owners how to run their factories!
To a certain extent they do. Look at the history of organized labour here in Canada (or the U.S.) and then try to make your statement again.

colchar is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 12:29 PM
  #765
bennysflyers16
Registered User
 
bennysflyers16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 18,562
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by whskybarJM View Post
not sure if this has been posted, tuff if it has.

the last thing snider wants is to be taking a beating from a city who regards him as a legend. There is a reason everyone, even the old time players, still call him Mr. Snider. He has been getting bombed on the radio and streets for not throwing his weight around. Looks like the man is getting mad at the napoleon rat.

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/...HL_talks_.html

I have said from the start, Crazy Ed arguably has more power than anyone. He LOVES his Flyers and is dieing to win another cup, and his owning Comcast gives him a lot of power. He could end this lockout pretty quickly if he wants and little Gary does not want him against him.

bennysflyers16 is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 12:30 PM
  #766
tmg
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 1,501
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuck in Socal View Post
The general consenus on a bandwagon website like ESPN is that this is solely the owner's fault.

Actually it is Bettman's fault with the owners as his puppets.
Bettman is the owners' employee. When there is a puppet/puppeteer relationship in play, it's the puppeteer who controls whether the puppet continues to act. It is the owners who control whether Bettman remains in their employ.

If there's puppetry at play, I would like to see Jeremy Jacobs' hands, and pay close attention to whether or not his lips move.

tmg is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 12:32 PM
  #767
Mike Jones
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,381
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennysflyers16 View Post
I have said from the start, Crazy Ed arguably has more power than anyone. He LOVES his Flyers and is dieing to win another cup, and his owning Comcast gives him a lot of power. He could end this lockout pretty quickly if he wants and little Gary does not want him against him.
Given the pressures on people like Snyder and all of the potential and alleged weirdness happening behind the scenes Brunt, Gatehouse or somebody (Anybody?) should write a book about this when all is said and done. It would have to be a bestseller.

Mike Jones is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 12:35 PM
  #768
azaloum90
Registered User
 
azaloum90's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: The coop!
Posts: 3,693
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by colchar View Post
Wow, the level of fail in this post is so far off the charts that I don't even know where to begin...
the last paragraph of that post is particularly enlightening... Comcast serves millions of customers... Natural gas and grocery are NECESSITIES to todays lifestyle.. These owners are the same guys... some of them actually know what they are doing..

unfortunately, it only takes a few drops of mud to ruin a perfectly clear glass of water. you can thank the idiot owners who don't understand how to run businesses for these issues.

azaloum90 is online now  
Old
11-17-2012, 12:37 PM
  #769
bennysflyers16
Registered User
 
bennysflyers16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 18,562
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Jones View Post
Given the pressures on people like Snyder and all of the potential and alleged weirdness happening behind the scenes Brunt, Gatehouse or somebody (Anybody?) should write a book about this when all is said and done. It would have to be a bestseller.


I was thinking the exact same thing, it would be fascinating !! I also would love to see the actual numbers for last season. With Sniders age and his no care attitude towards money, it could become insane if he starts to go hard against Gary. As stated above, I truly believe the heat he is taking in Philly will force his hand.

Have you read the Bettman book, I hate the guy with a passion but friends have said it is a fantastic read and have highly recommended it.

bennysflyers16 is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 12:37 PM
  #770
Freudian
Deja vu again?
 
Freudian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Sweden
Posts: 31,494
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Poor poor Gary

Just Go Away Gary

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...t-go-away-gary

Bill Simmons really gave it to Gary. Good for him.
It's the worst Bettman column this week. And with McGregor spewing his nonsense it was a very competitive week.

Notice how those in the 'Bettman in the worst commissioner EVAR' crowd always completely ignores that revenues for the league has grown almost ten times since the early 90s. Also they always put expansion on him, while parts of it was decided before he took office and it's something he had to manage. He gets blamed for fighting too hard for southern franchises (read: they're not real hockey fans like you and me), completely ignoring how hard he fought for Buffalo, Ottawa and Pittsburgh.

There are certainly things he could have done better and this work stoppage reflects poorly on him and the owners as it does on the players and Fehr. But what's with the completely moronic rants we've seen lately?

Freudian is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 12:39 PM
  #771
colchar
Registered User
 
colchar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,609
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Your factory comparison runs a little short after you consider those employee do not get to demand a specific salary and piss and moan when they do not get it.

So you've never heard of a labour dispute in any industry other than hockey?



Quote:
Incidentally, those "fat pigs" are the reason the NHL exists

No, the game and the players are. If the owners were to put replacement players on the ice in Leafs and Habs uniforms and the real NHL players from those teams were to rent out a rink in the same city on the same night and play a game wearing generic jerseys, which game do you really think would sell more tickets?

colchar is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 12:40 PM
  #772
colchar
Registered User
 
colchar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,609
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoobs View Post
Y'know, I can't help to think that the NHL might've taken the NHLPA up on their "negotiate while playing under the old CBA offer" if the NHLPA's union head wasn't Don Fehr.
No, they would have locked the players out regardless of who was heading the union. They did that before when Fehr was nowhere to be seen so it is just standard operating procedure for them.

colchar is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 12:44 PM
  #773
Blackhawkswincup
Global Moderator
 
Blackhawkswincup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Chicagoland
Country: United States
Posts: 112,067
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by colchar View Post
No, they would have locked the players out regardless of who was heading the union. They did that before when Fehr was nowhere to be seen so it is just standard operating procedure for them.
Its standard operating procedure for all professional leagues after watching what Fehr and his buddies did in 1994 (And was done more limited in previous union/owner fights in sports),, Common sense says you either have a CBA or lockout

You cant leave any opening for players to use strike for leverage


Last edited by Blackhawkswincup: 11-17-2012 at 12:59 PM.
Blackhawkswincup is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 12:46 PM
  #774
Erik Estrada
Registered User
 
Erik Estrada's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,797
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmg View Post
Bettman is the owners' employee. When there is a puppet/puppeteer relationship in play, it's the puppeteer who controls whether the puppet continues to act. It is the owners who control whether Bettman remains in their employ.

If there's puppetry at play, I would like to see Jeremy Jacobs' hands, and pay close attention to whether or not his lips move.
I have no clue what's happening behind the scenes... Because of the NHL's structure, if I was Bettman I would have my power base of at least 8 owners that keep me there through thick and thin. They support me, I support them...

It's been speculated by Friedman that this group was Jacobs and some have-not clubs. If it's the case, Bettman would better keep them happy... That would mean helping the poor franchises and the Sun-Belt teams...

Jacob's interests are different than all the other profitable franchises (Rangers, Leafs, Habs, etc...) because he has a stake in running rink concessions for some Sun-Belt teams. Bettman would be doing the right thing by catering to his core constituency.

Erik Estrada is offline  
Old
11-17-2012, 12:50 PM
  #775
Jonas1235
Registered User
 
Jonas1235's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,467
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMT21 View Post
The big 3 each pay players anywhere from 45% - 50% of team revenue. Not 100% sure on the MLB figure.. I guessed at 45%.

There is simply no comparison between the big 3 and NHL.

TV revenue alone is the great divide. Not including regional deals for the MLB & NBA.

NFL : 100M per team per season. Enough to cover at least 85%-90% of team payroll.

MLB : 50M per team per season. Covers 100% payroll for some of the bottom feeder teams.

NBA : 31M per team per season. Likely enough to cover 1/2 of team payroll for most teams.

NHL : 10M per team. Not enough to cover 25% of payroll for those that spend to the floor.

The players (IMO) are pretty lucky to get offered 50% of HRR as league revenues in the NHL are completely dwarfed by the big 3.

Even if the NHL followed Fehr's dream of becoming cap-free like the MLB...... I'm not convinced at all the player salaries would rise considerably.
Only thing is that nhl teams are not making 10million a year in national tv. There's probably over 400 million domestically if you include USA Canada and gamecentre/centre ice. And another 50 million overseas.

Then there's probably 10 teams with over 15 million a year in regional tv contracts. There's more tv money in the pot than some think.

Jonas1235 is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:12 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.