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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part VII: The Last Waltz "Cut the sheet & drop the puck!"

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Old
11-17-2012, 10:49 AM
  #76
ltrangerfan
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Bill Simmons ripped Gary a new one.



http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...t-go-away-gary
Gary Bettman...

For the fans... Hated... He took hockey away from us.

For the players ... Hated... He strong armed us.

For the sportswriters... Mostly disliked.. He took hockey away from them.

For the owners....Rev's increased, negotiations went as well as can be expected, Hall of fame material.

My view: He did his job well.

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11-17-2012, 11:16 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by ltrangerfan View Post
Gary Bettman...

For the fans... Hated... He took hockey away from us.

For the players ... Hated... He strong armed us.

For the sportswriters... Mostly disliked.. He took hockey away from them.

For the owners....Rev's increased, negotiations went as well as can be expected, Hall of fame material.

My view: He did his job well.
Obviously he did something wrong if Bettman wants to blow up the system and says mistakes were made in the previous CBA.

Seems revenues are up a lot for about a third of the league. Phoenix went bankrupt. Atlanta had to relocate. Other teams like the Islanders are bleeding money.

Seems more like Bettman did a good job for a handful of teams. This is why he wants to reinvent thewheel with this CBA.

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Old
11-17-2012, 12:01 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by ltrangerfan View Post
For the owners....Rev's increased, negotiations went as well as can be expected, Hall of fame material.

My view: He did his job well.
What did he do well exactly?

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Old
11-17-2012, 12:05 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UAGoalieGuy View Post
Obviously he did something wrong if Bettman wants to blow up the system and says mistakes were made in the previous CBA.

Seems revenues are up a lot for about a third of the league. Phoenix went bankrupt. Atlanta had to relocate. Other teams like the Islanders are bleeding money.

Seems more like Bettman did a good job for a handful of teams. This is why he wants to reinvent thewheel with this CBA.
The only person trying to reinvent anything is the PA side. THEY are trying to change the structure of the CBA by de-linking the cap and revenues. NHL is keeping it the same, just lowering the percentages.

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11-17-2012, 12:40 PM
  #80
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The only person trying to reinvent anything is the PA side. THEY are trying to change the structure of the CBA by de-linking the cap and revenues. NHL is keeping it the same, just lowering the percentages.
Trying to change the definition of what revenues are included in the players share of the revenue, contract structure, ufa age, etc. Not to mention not making good on contracts they handed out as late as one day before the lock out.

Yeah the NHL is just trying to lower percentages only.

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Old
11-17-2012, 01:04 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
The only person trying to reinvent anything is the PA side. THEY are trying to change the structure of the CBA by de-linking the cap and revenues. NHL is keeping it the same, just lowering the percentages.
For two seasons it is delinked to accommodate the drop.

If the cba is fine, why are we doing this?

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Old
11-17-2012, 01:14 PM
  #82
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Good read on how teams that claim they are losing money are actually making profit.

http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/201...at-lose-money/

"Last year, Forbes estimated that the Panthers lost $7 million. Over the last nine seasons, they calculate the Panthers total losses at $68 million, an average deficit of $7.5 million per season."

Interestingly, the picture that Forbes paints is at odds with that presented by Broward County. Broward County was primarily responsible for the construction of the Panthers’ arena, and as a result gets to look at the books of the organization. According to the county auditor, the organization made $117.4 million in profit between 1998 and 2012.


"because hockey-related revenue is defined in such a way as to show losses: owners have generous deduction allowances – in some cases, as with television broadcasts, the owners can deduct up to 100 percent of revenues as a “direct cost” – and certain forms of revenue (including many of the government subsidies teams receive) are not included in the calculation.

The bottom line is that the Panthers’ current ownership did not get into hockey to lose money, and according to the county auditor they haven’t lost money. Florida, commonly presented as one of the league’s have-not teams, and an example of the dangers of over-expansion, is nothing of the sort: it’s a healthy business, carefully presented to appear like a money-losing operation.

"Unfortunately, it is impossible to know what the situation is in other NHL cities. NHL teams are private companies, and have no obligation to divulge their financial data. But the fact that the Panthers are seen as one of the poorest clubs in the league suggests that the vast majority of NHL teams are doing just fine."
I saw a tweet about this yesterday. Can anybody tell me why we're in this situation now? I just want my Rangers hockey back. Florida's doing fine. Then I'm sure Nashville, Carolina and Tampa is. Jeff Vinik - owner of the Lightning - has money. He just doesn't walk in and remodel an arena and donate money if he knows he's going to lose money. Enough of this.

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Old
11-17-2012, 01:34 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
For two seasons it is delinked to accommodate the drop.

If the cba is fine, why are we doing this?
If the last CBA was so bad, why are the players so angry about it? (or they say they are. clearly they realize they made out pretty good since they said they'd play under the last cba)

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Old
11-17-2012, 01:55 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by UAGoalieGuy View Post
Trying to change the definition of what revenues are included in the players share of the revenue, contract structure, ufa age, etc. Not to mention not making good on contracts they handed out as late as one day before the lock out.

Yeah the NHL is just trying to lower percentages only.
We don't know who exactly asked for what, but reports were that he owners wanted more COSTS included in HRR. Meanwhile, the players also wanted the definition of HRR changed - they wanted some additional REVENUES (which frankly, were only vaguely tangential to hockey) included in HRR. But, both sides pretty much agreed to keep HRR unchanged weeks ago and we haven't heard anything about this issue since then.

Your post seems to argue that this the status quo is the appropriate, fair structure for the CBA and therefore the players are "entitled" to something from the owners for everything they "give up". I think this is the underlying stance of many posters on the board who are pro-player and perhaps a good portion of the players themselves as well. This is a fundamental misunderstanding - the owners position is that the current system is NOT working and they are pushing for a net give from the players (when compared to the previous deal).

Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Ed Snider is getting nervous. Comcast needs programming. http://mobile.philly.com/sports/?wss...viewAll=y#more
As I've maintained all along, I'm simply in favor of whatever it'll take to get a deal done. Reports are Snider is shifting to a more moderate position and would be in favor of a deal with just the concessions gained to date? Fabulous. Get'er done.

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Old
11-17-2012, 01:55 PM
  #85
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The league is healthy or its not. If it is healthy, the lockout is senseless a merely a money grab.

If its unhealthy, lets ask why. The southern market and overexpansion coupled with the tv unable to bolster teams. Sounds like Bettman's reason to exist as commissioner. Yet he is regarded as a first ballot hall of famer here. Priceless.

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Old
11-17-2012, 02:02 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
The league is healthy or its not. If it is healthy, the lockout is senseless a merely a money grab.

If its unhealthy, lets ask why. The southern market and overexpansion coupled with the tv unable to bolster teams. Sounds like Bettman's reason to exist as commissioner. Yet he is regarded as a first ballot hall of famer here. Priceless.
You need the larger league to even have the opportunity to approach national penetration and the TV and marketing revenues that those can bring. The solution is greater revenue sharing. (Which apparently the sides have already agreed to.)

Bettman as a hall-of-famer? Oy. Definitely not. He's been a B-/C+ as a commissioner.

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Old
11-17-2012, 02:27 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Andy Strickland ‏@andystrickland
Bill Daly says he expects negotations to resume shortly and that there wasn't much truth to #NHL looking to take a two week break #NHLPA
NBC & Snyder effect?

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Old
11-17-2012, 02:28 PM
  #88
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Bill Daly says he expects negotations to resume shortly and that there wasn't much truth to #NHL looking to take a two week break
https://twitter.com/andystrickland/s...84002645721090

Quote:
In an email to me today, Bill Daly said...
That communications between the league and players has resumed. Though that does not mean formal ones at a bargaining table, I believe that will happen soon, hopefully early next week.
As evidenced by a report out of Philly today, major player Ed Snider looks to want to cut a deal soon. Keep this in mind too: Comcast is the real de facto owner of the Flyers, and Comcast owns NBC, and NBC has a lot of airtime to fill in the coming months. No NHL to air in those months would not be too welcomed by Comcast bosses
http://sulia.com/channel/nhl-lockout...-4a5ed1158ab2/

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Old
11-17-2012, 02:34 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
You need the larger league to even have the opportunity to approach national penetration and the TV and marketing revenues that those can bring. The solution is greater revenue sharing. (Which apparently the sides have already agreed to.)

Bettman as a hall-of-famer? Oy. Definitely not. He's been a B-/C+ as a commissioner.
I agree about the size of the league. That's why the tv strategy was a serious miscalculation. The expansion/southern drive only works with a large tv deal to support poor attendance. The state of the game falls on bettman. His vision, his execution, his cba plans. He declared victory after his first two cbas. He has gotten most things he set out for. The results are far from his intentions but he set the table how he wanted.

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11-17-2012, 02:40 PM
  #90
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What did he do well exactly?
Whatever the owners wanted and needed done.


Last edited by ltrangerfan: 11-17-2012 at 02:57 PM.
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Old
11-17-2012, 02:54 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by UAGoalieGuy View Post
Obviously he did something wrong if Bettman wants to blow up the system and says mistakes were made in the previous CBA.

Seems revenues are up a lot for about a third of the league. Phoenix went bankrupt. Atlanta had to relocate. Other teams like the Islanders are bleeding money.

Seems more like Bettman did a good job for a handful of teams. This is why he wants to reinvent thewheel with this CBA.



He wasn't perfect. Mistakes were made. Some locations worked others? not so much. He did carry the water for the owners and my guess is that were happy with his performance. We can rant and rave against Bettman but in the end he did the main job he was sent in to do rather well. That is, Represent the owners in negotiations.

With that said, my guess is that Bettman will not represent the owners in the next CBA discussion. Is that 5-7 yrs from now? I suspect the owners will look to start with a fresh advocate. Perhaps the PA will spend more time thinking about the issues as opposed to "beating the man" with a new commish in place? The good news imo, is that it will take a decade or so for everyone to start throwing darts at him.

Not as confident but...I also won't be surprised if FEhr is gone as well. Was a 600-800 million dollar loss in salaries worth the return? Others will have to decide.

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Old
11-17-2012, 02:54 PM
  #92
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Good news, maybe if cable giants like Snider, Dolan, Rogers, etc started speaking, things would get done quicker.

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11-17-2012, 02:56 PM
  #93
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Not only that, but aside from the Flyers, 3 other major bread winners in the NHL broadcast their games through Comcast, the Hawks, Sharks and Caps one of Bettman's poster child teams.

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11-17-2012, 02:57 PM
  #94
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“We’ve made a proposal about the back-diving contracts. We’ve made a proposal on not capping the minor league guys. We’re trying to make things work, but the deal isn’t good enough yet,” said Thornton. “I was in the room when Don [Fehr] was trying to get a deal done. I can’t give too much away, but I’ve been on the inside and listened to him talk to the negotiating committee, the experts on the [NHLPA] staff about revenue sharing and player contract rights.
http://www.csnne.com/hockey-boston-b...23&feedID=5364

So the PA has made a proposal on the cheating contracts. The capping of the AHL guys is the $105,000 threshold. No more re-entry waivers. The NHL proposed players making above $105,000 AHL have their NHL salaries count against the cap. PA believes that acts as a cap on AHL salaries. They're right about that.

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Old
11-17-2012, 04:26 PM
  #95
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Hoping Monday the talks resume in Toronto.

5 days, 6-8 hours each day. Saturday fly back to NYC, sign the new CBA Sunday or Monday. Hockey returns!

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11-17-2012, 04:48 PM
  #96
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Deepest condolences and sympathies.
Thank you. It is what it is though and we're dealing with it and the alternative was even worse. Still sucks. Again though when the Rangers are back I'll be back with them. Hopefully it won't be long.

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11-17-2012, 05:00 PM
  #97
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Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger

NHL and PA expect to meet Monday night. Smaller group, but players and owners likely included.

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11-17-2012, 05:10 PM
  #98
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Bill Simmons ripped Gary a new one.



http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...t-go-away-gary
Point after well made point. Great article.

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Old
11-17-2012, 05:17 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by ltrangerfan View Post
Gary Bettman...

For the fans... Hated... He took hockey away from us.

For the players ... Hated... He strong armed us.

For the sportswriters... Mostly disliked.. He took hockey away from them.

For the owners....Rev's increased, negotiations went as well as can be expected, Hall of fame material.

My view: He did his job well.
If his mission statement were to totally de legitimize the game and essentially destroy it's viability as a business model.....then he's an ace. No question.

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Old
11-17-2012, 05:25 PM
  #100
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Bill Simmons ripped Gary a new one.



http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...t-go-away-gary
I think Bettman is a little crazy and more combative than is productive but I don't agree with this analogy. A more appropriate analogy would be that your neighbor built a house, then, years later, after the economy changed and his financial needs have changed, he was offered to have the entire thing done over again and he accepted. Bettman didn't "knock down the house" in that he didn't cancel the old CBA - it expired. He wants to change it because times have changed. If your wants and needs change over time you're suddenly an idiot? Common.

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