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Was hockey better in the 80s?

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Old
11-16-2012, 09:46 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Without the larger equipment, the "science" doesn't work. Give goalies 80s sized equipment and suddenly the science doesn't appear very smart.
remember not only was the equipment from that era a lot smaller but it was a lot heavier too, including the goal stick!

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11-17-2012, 12:10 AM
  #77
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I think I liked the 90's the best. But following hockey in the 1980's must've been cool, never had to worry about a lockout like today.

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11-17-2012, 12:11 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Bexlyspeed View Post
remember not only was the equipment from that era a lot smaller but it was a lot heavier too, including the goal stick!
Love the Powerslave avatar

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11-17-2012, 01:11 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Love the Powerslave avatar
Eddie is a classic

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11-17-2012, 02:04 AM
  #80
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After the lockout Steve McKichan, who was the Toronto Maple Leaf goalie coach and a was also a goalie for the Vancouver Canucks, came out with a book or file called Future Pro Goaltending Essentials. What's interesting is that at the end of it, McKichan touches on the subject of goaltending in the 80's.

McKichan says that goaltending will never go back to the 80's so stop dreaming about it. Were the goalies back in the 80's athletic? Of course. We're the goalies of the 80's technically sound? Hell no. Other then hard work and never giving up on a save, no goalie now should use the goalies of the 80's as a something to base their style off of. For one their stances were pretty bad. So much double coverage you had to be athletic to make a save because the puck often moved faster then you could react.

Another big difference that OFTEN gets overlooked is coaching. 80's goalies did not have goalie coaches like we do now. Most often as a young goalie was developing he had to learn from the older goalies as his coach was often useless for goaltending advice. Goalies now have that extra feedback from a goalie coach. It makes a massive difference between trying to just learn by yourself or get actual helpful instruction.

The style has changed for sure. Goalies have come to realize that the butterfly is easy and effective to use. Why should we make things easy for you the player? Our stances have come a long way as well. No longer are we holding our trapper as if we are holding a pizza box. No longer are we halfway in our crease giving you tons of net to shoot at. Goalies challenge properly now, always nearly at the top of the crease, stick blade covering the low 5-hole and our gloves in front of our body instead of beside our body. Of course stances do vary but the principle is the same.

Goalie equipment has gotten bigger, that is in response to changing technology and the need to keep up with the advances that the players are making with their equipment. With players, you all have new sticks that make your shots better then with a wooden stick. Your equipment has also made you more reckless and faster, yours drives to the net have become deadlier. Plus your equipment has become better so therefore you can stand in front of the net more and take more punishment from defencemen and pucks.

Goalies have become smarter. Part of the reason for complaints is that players are upset that scoring has become harder. How about instead of complaining all the time you become more creative? Realize that goalies love to stop the puck, we don't care if you think we take up too much net, we don't care if you think all we do is drop to our knees and hope the puck hits us. I've watched many goalies play and I've coached them as well, dropping to your knees and praying the puck hits you is the worst tactic ever. Usually your scored on, other times you leave a big rebound and then the odd time where the puck misses or your team clears out the rebound.

There are a few places where goalie equipment can be cut down, such as in the shoulders. However you can't make goalie equipment much smaller before you put the goalies safety at risk. And to SaintPatrick33 who posted the Dryden quote, that was 2003, its for the most part irrelevant now that goalie equipment size has been decreased since the 2004/05 lockout.

I could type more but its late.

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Old
11-17-2012, 03:11 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoytoSakic View Post
After the lockout Steve McKichan, who was the Toronto Maple Leaf goalie coach and a was also a goalie for the Vancouver Canucks, came out with a book or file called Future Pro Goaltending Essentials. What's interesting is that at the end of it, McKichan touches on the subject of goaltending in the 80's.

McKichan says that goaltending will never go back to the 80's so stop dreaming about it. Were the goalies back in the 80's athletic? Of course. We're the goalies of the 80's technically sound? Hell no. Other then hard work and never giving up on a save, no goalie now should use the goalies of the 80's as a something to base their style off of. For one their stances were pretty bad. So much double coverage you had to be athletic to make a save because the puck often moved faster then you could react.

Another big difference that OFTEN gets overlooked is coaching. 80's goalies did not have goalie coaches like we do now. Most often as a young goalie was developing he had to learn from the older goalies as his coach was often useless for goaltending advice. Goalies now have that extra feedback from a goalie coach. It makes a massive difference between trying to just learn by yourself or get actual helpful instruction.

The style has changed for sure. Goalies have come to realize that the butterfly is easy and effective to use. Why should we make things easy for you the player? Our stances have come a long way as well. No longer are we holding our trapper as if we are holding a pizza box. No longer are we halfway in our crease giving you tons of net to shoot at. Goalies challenge properly now, always nearly at the top of the crease, stick blade covering the low 5-hole and our gloves in front of our body instead of beside our body. Of course stances do vary but the principle is the same.

Goalie equipment has gotten bigger, that is in response to changing technology and the need to keep up with the advances that the players are making with their equipment. With players, you all have new sticks that make your shots better then with a wooden stick. Your equipment has also made you more reckless and faster, yours drives to the net have become deadlier. Plus your equipment has become better so therefore you can stand in front of the net more and take more punishment from defencemen and pucks.

Goalies have become smarter. Part of the reason for complaints is that players are upset that scoring has become harder. How about instead of complaining all the time you become more creative? Realize that goalies love to stop the puck, we don't care if you think we take up too much net, we don't care if you think all we do is drop to our knees and hope the puck hits us. I've watched many goalies play and I've coached them as well, dropping to your knees and praying the puck hits you is the worst tactic ever. Usually your scored on, other times you leave a big rebound and then the odd time where the puck misses or your team clears out the rebound.

There are a few places where goalie equipment can be cut down, such as in the shoulders. However you can't make goalie equipment much smaller before you put the goalies safety at risk. And to SaintPatrick33 who posted the Dryden quote, that was 2003, its for the most part irrelevant now that goalie equipment size has been decreased since the 2004/05 lockout.

I could type more but its late.
The weight reduction, lack of water retention, better shaped and better at holding that shape pads allowed for better stances and technical play.
Does buddy mention that at all?
You could not go down with anywhere near the frequency that goalies do today. You would be so dead by the third period and your pads would weigh even more by that point on top of it.
And honestly, how effective does anyone think the butterfly was when you covered at least 25% less net when you did it back then.
Guys like Tony O and Dan Bouchard were known as butterfly goalies but they used it maybe 30-40% of the time. They would barely qualify as hybrids in today's NHL heh.

As I said earlier, my style changed overnight with synthetic equipment.
I didn't just suddenly become good technically, I always knew my angles. I had to play the way my equipment would allow me to play.

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11-17-2012, 09:38 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by SealsFan View Post
I wasn't crazy about 80's hockey at the time but in retrospect it was more entertaining than the "dead puck" era, as others have mentioned.

It's easy for me to be nostalgic about:

- the lack of concussions
Was there a lack of concussions, or was there a lack of reported concussions? I think there's a bit of a difference.

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11-17-2012, 11:22 AM
  #83
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I began watching the game during the 1978-79 season, so I got to fully enjoy the 1980s era. Like others here, I prefer the high scoring of that time to the dead puck, marathon soccer matches that the game later develoved into. I also like that there were still a number of guys who continued to play without helmets then. Reporters back then would often make remarks about how stupid players like Guy Lafleur and Rod Langway and Al Secord and others like that were for not wearing helmets. Flash forward all these years later and the news media's credibility is shattered on that front with ones like Crosby et al out for extended periods of time because of head and neck injury problems. Oddly enough, the French RDS channel has been showing Habs-Nordiques games from that era and last night was Vendredi Saint 1984. Certainly there are the obvious things to remember from that game in particular but one thing I noticed was the organ music from that time. I hope I am not being silly by pointing this out, but does anybody else here remember that as well and find the organ music preferable? Nowadays, the garbage that is blasted at games makes the whole thing even more big and stupid and overproduced than it already is. The Quebec Colisee organist was also good if my memory serves me well. Any thoughts on this?

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Old
11-17-2012, 11:45 AM
  #84
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Was there a lack of concussions, or was there a lack of reported concussions? I think there's a bit of a difference.
Bingo. The understanding about the human brain and concussions has come a long way in the last decade, yet alone the last 3 decades.

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Originally Posted by ICM1970 View Post
I began watching the game during the 1978-79 season, so I got to fully enjoy the 1980s era. Like others here, I prefer the high scoring of that time to the dead puck, marathon soccer matches that the game later develoved into. I also like that there were still a number of guys who continued to play without helmets then. Reporters back then would often make remarks about how stupid players like Guy Lafleur and Rod Langway and Al Secord and others like that were for not wearing helmets. Flash forward all these years later and the news media's credibility is shattered on that front with ones like Crosby et al out for extended periods of time because of head and neck injury problems. Oddly enough, the French RDS channel has been showing Habs-Nordiques games from that era and last night was Vendredi Saint 1984. Certainly there are the obvious things to remember from that game in particular but one thing I noticed was the organ music from that time. I hope I am not being silly by pointing this out, but does anybody else here remember that as well and find the organ music preferable? Nowadays, the garbage that is blasted at games makes the whole thing even more big and stupid and overproduced than it already is. The Quebec Colisee organist was also good if my memory serves me well. Any thoughts on this?
Definitely with you on preferring a good organist over some piped in random pop music crap like we get during 90% of stoppages now.

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11-17-2012, 12:04 PM
  #85
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sure was.

fewer teams & no salary cap + the two most talented players to ever play = better

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11-17-2012, 12:07 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
The weight reduction, lack of water retention, better shaped and better at holding that shape pads allowed for better stances and technical play.
Does buddy mention that at all?
You could not go down with anywhere near the frequency that goalies do today. You would be so dead by the third period and your pads would weigh even more by that point on top of it.
And honestly, how effective does anyone think the butterfly was when you covered at least 25% less net when you did it back then.
Guys like Tony O and Dan Bouchard were known as butterfly goalies but they used it maybe 30-40% of the time. They would barely qualify as hybrids in today's NHL heh.

As I said earlier, my style changed overnight with synthetic equipment.
I didn't just suddenly become good technically, I always knew my angles. I had to play the way my equipment would allow me to play.

from a goal scorer's perspective it's the goalies' shoulder risers that change everything.

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11-17-2012, 12:12 PM
  #87
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Not better than the 90s but it was much better than anything we've seen since 97.

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11-17-2012, 12:26 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
The weight reduction, lack of water retention, better shaped and better at holding that shape pads allowed for better stances and technical play.
Does buddy mention that at all?
You could not go down with anywhere near the frequency that goalies do today. You would be so dead by the third period and your pads would weigh even more by that point on top of it.
And honestly, how effective does anyone think the butterfly was when you covered at least 25% less net when you did it back then.
Guys like Tony O and Dan Bouchard were known as butterfly goalies but they used it maybe 30-40% of the time. They would barely qualify as hybrids in today's NHL heh.

As I said earlier, my style changed overnight with synthetic equipment.
I didn't just suddenly become good technically, I always knew my angles. I had to play the way my equipment would allow me to play.
There's also the fact that goalies these days are better trained. Yes equipment has changed, as a goalie you should enjoy that. Why would you want to feel like as heavy as an elephant?

To say that equipment has been the biggest and most effective change in the goalies' arsenal these days is a lie. You cannot contribute everything a goalie does purely because of his equipment. The best thing about equipment these days is that you can customize it to your fit and needs. Like Brodeur does.

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11-17-2012, 04:50 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by RoytoSakic View Post
The best thing about equipment these days is that you can customize it to your fit and needs. Like Brodeur does.
Here again, Dryden's point applies: "The principle that the purpose of equipment is to protect the body, not the net, has been forgotten."

The purpose of equipment is NOT to make you a better goalie. That's the point.

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11-17-2012, 06:03 PM
  #90
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Here again, Dryden's point applies: "The principle that the purpose of equipment is to protect the body, not the net, has been forgotten."

The purpose of equipment is NOT to make you a better goalie. That's the point.
And like I said, our need has as goalies to change that philosophy has changed with the players. They have equipment from themselves that makes them way better, why should we short change ourselves? If the players had a say, we would still be maskless.

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11-17-2012, 10:13 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by RoytoSakic View Post
And like I said, our need has as goalies to change that philosophy has changed with the players. They have equipment from themselves that makes them way better, why should we short change ourselves? If the players had a say, we would still be maskless.
Hmmm.....maybe because in damn near any sport making yourself a better player by altering your equipment is considered cheating? There's a reason why in baseball players who cork their bats get suspended. Hey, they're just making themselves better players by changing their equipment right?

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11-17-2012, 10:53 PM
  #92
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We're the goalies of the 80's technically sound? Hell no. For one their stances were pretty bad.

80's goalies did not have goalie coaches....

The style has changed for sure...

Goalie equipment has gotten bigger....

Goalies have become smarter....

There are a few places where goalie equipment can be cut down...
Cant say I agree with a number of your assertions here RS, and I played goal through the 60's & early 70's, had I stuck it out pro from the mid 70's through 80's soooo.... For starters, Goalie Coaches have been around since, like, forever, though at the amateur levels sure enough, wasnt until the mid-60's that decent organizations & coaches starting using them. Usually the Uncle/Brother/Father or whatever of one of the players on your team who played Jr. or Pro helping out.... sortof like what Rhiessan does in Guelph Id imagine. At the Jr. levels, goaltenders received extensive coaching from the late 60's on; at the pro levels, from at least the early 70's onward, Bower for example in Toronto retained as a consultant amongst the many pretty much league wide. Hall worked with Esposito; Plante with Parent and so on. Was it as "intensive" as todays coaching? No, certainly not, as back then we didnt feel it was necessary to micromanage and frankly "over-coach" players.

Goalies (not all, but the elite) did indeed "challenge properly" through the 70's & 80's, to suggest otherwise is absurd. Thats what standups all about. What happened was that after the 72 Summit Series and much handwringing, the game changed from one of set patterns & lanes to one of constant cycling combined with equipment advances, skating skills, attention paid to off-ice conditioning & nutrition etc. The cycle game forced goaltenders back into their creases, relying more & more upon the Butterfly, used previously primarily on dekes, scrambles, screens. Goalies didnt "become smarter", they simply "adapted", and it wasnt until the mid to late 80's that the equipment they used altered much. Palmateer introduced the "cheater" to his catcher, an extra 3" pad & web jobby, many followed, but that was about it for several years.

What ceases to amaze (and disappoint) me about todays goalies is their inability to control rebounds, their propensity to drop early and on every shot, and most frustratingly of all, an inability to skate with any modicum of proficiency. I mean, why bother with skates at all? Its a joke, and a bad one. They cant play North South, just "slide" East West on their knee's. Not all of them, guys like Thomas, certainly Smith down in Phoenix, there are some terrific Goaltenders out there no mistake, but on the whole? Pretty lousy. They dont make "saves", they "block" the net, and again, beg to differ, size matters. Equipments gotten a tad smaller since 03'ish sure, but hey, youve gotta be 6'0"+++ to even be out there anymore, and I for one dont enjoy watching a whole lot of it. Trappers are grossly oversized; pads were insane but have begun to resemble what they were designed for in the first place instead of the inflatable landing pads passengers might like to land on when evacuating an airplane; your chest protectors / shoulder pads gotta be cut down to size; get rid of the curved goalie sticks (bad rebound control) and ya, start holding out that catcher like a "pizza box" (as you put it) again, and "challenge" the shooter to beat you on the glovehand.... instead, their down on their knees more often than a streetwalker working the Mont Parnesse.


Last edited by Killion: 11-18-2012 at 01:02 AM. Reason: typos...
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11-17-2012, 11:35 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by ICM1970 View Post
I hope I am not being silly by pointing this out, but does anybody else here remember that as well and find the organ music preferable? Nowadays, the garbage that is blasted at games makes the whole thing even more big and stupid and overproduced than it already is. The Quebec Colisee organist was also good if my memory serves me well. Any thoughts on this?
You're not being silly at all. This is a big pet peeve of mine. I can't stand the 15-second blasts of pop/rock that have to fill up every break in the action.

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11-17-2012, 11:35 PM
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Cant say I agree with a number of your assertions here RS, and I played goal through the 60's & early 70's, had I stuck it out pro from the mid 70's through 80's so ya, you pushed a few wrong buttons up there Pal... as in no idea what your talking about.

For starters, Goalie Coaches have been around since, like, forever, though at the amateur levels sure enough, wasnt until the mid-60's that decent organizations & coaches starting using them. Usually the Uncle/Brother/Father or whatever of one of the players on your team who played Jr. or Pro helping out.... sortof like what Rhiessan does in Guelph Id imagine. At the Jr. levels, goaltenders received extensive coaching from the late 60's on; at the pro levels, from at least the early 70's onward, Bower for example in Toronto retained as a consultant amongst the many pretty much league wide. Hall worked with Esposito; Plante with Parent and so on. Was it as "intensive" as todays coaching? No, certainly not, as back then we didnt feel it was necessary to micromanage and frankly "over-coach" players.

Goalies (not all, but the elite) did indeed "challenge properly" through the 70's & 80's, to suggest otherwise is absurd. Thats what standups all about. What happened was that after the 72 Summit Series and much handwringing, the game changed from one of set patterns & lanes to one of constant cycling combined with equipment advances, skating skills, attention paid to off-ice conditioning & nutrition etc. The cycle game forced goaltenders back into their creases, relying more & more upon the Butterfly, used previously primarily on dekes, scrambles, screens. Goalies didnt "become smarter", they simply "adapted", and it wasnt until the mid to late 80's that the equipment they used altered much. Palmateer introduced the "cheater" to his catcher, an extra 3" pad & web jobby, many followed, but that was about it for several years.

What ceases to amaze (and disappoint) me about todays goalies is their inability to control rebounds, their propensity to drop early and on every shot, and most frustratingly of all, an inability to skate with any modicum of proficiency. I mean, why bother with skates at all? Its a joke, and a bad one. They cant play North South, just "slide" East West on their knee's. Not all of them, guys like Thomas, certainly Smith down in Phoenix, there are some terrific Goaltenders out there no mistake, but on the whole? Pretty lousy. They dont make "saves", they "block" the net, and again, beg to differ, size matters. Equipments gotten a tad smaller since 03'ish sure, but hey, youve gotta be 6'0"+++ to even be out there anymore, and I for one dont enjoy watching a whole lot of it. Trappers are grossly oversized; pads were insane but have begun to resemble what they were designed for in the first place instead of the inflatable landing pads passengers might like to land on when evacuating an airplane; your chest protectors/shoulder pads gotta be cut down to size; get rid of the curved goalie sticks (bad rebound control) and ya, start holding out that catcher like a "pizza box" as you put it again, and "challenge" the shooter like your supposed to instead of waiting for it.... like some streetwalker already down on her knee's on the Mont Parnasse'.
here's where i would past the citizen kane clapping gif (if that were allowed)
great post...

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11-18-2012, 01:00 AM
  #95
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You're not being silly at all. This is a big pet peeve of mine. I can't stand the 15-second blasts of pop/rock that have to fill up every break in the action.
... here here. Cant stand it either. Residuals must be great for Coldplay though. Practically every arena in the league opens with one of their ripoff numbers. Then theres the "Meat Draws" from Safeway or Piggly Wiggly. "Oh Man, one number off and I coulda had that 40lb Picnic Ham". Gimme a frikin break. Lose the "Game Presentation" nonsense already. "Amway Presents; Your Detroit Red Wings". Does that mean the nice couple seated beside me arent really "all that nice" but plants trying to buttonhole my personage with promises of ever lasting wealth, contentment & cleaning products?

... and dangit ot92s, I went back & edited that post as clearly it was full of Flames, not to mention that reference to the oldest profession and making a living on your knee's. Yet you just went right on ahead & quoted the whole thing word for bloody word huh? Well way to go Maing. That oughtta be good for about a 10pointer.... Oh well. Hey ho. Carry on.


Last edited by Killion: 11-18-2012 at 01:09 AM.
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11-18-2012, 01:54 AM
  #96
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From one old goalie to another, Killion, great post!

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11-18-2012, 02:02 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Cant say I agree with a number of your assertions here RS, and I played goal through the 60's & early 70's, had I stuck it out pro from the mid 70's through 80's soooo.... For starters, Goalie Coaches have been around since, like, forever, though at the amateur levels sure enough, wasnt until the mid-60's that decent organizations & coaches starting using them. Usually the Uncle/Brother/Father or whatever of one of the players on your team who played Jr. or Pro helping out.... sortof like what Rhiessan does in Guelph Id imagine. At the Jr. levels, goaltenders received extensive coaching from the late 60's on; at the pro levels, from at least the early 70's onward, Bower for example in Toronto retained as a consultant amongst the many pretty much league wide. Hall worked with Esposito; Plante with Parent and so on. Was it as "intensive" as todays coaching? No, certainly not, as back then we didnt feel it was necessary to micromanage and frankly "over-coach" players.

Goalies (not all, but the elite) did indeed "challenge properly" through the 70's & 80's, to suggest otherwise is absurd. Thats what standups all about. What happened was that after the 72 Summit Series and much handwringing, the game changed from one of set patterns & lanes to one of constant cycling combined with equipment advances, skating skills, attention paid to off-ice conditioning & nutrition etc. The cycle game forced goaltenders back into their creases, relying more & more upon the Butterfly, used previously primarily on dekes, scrambles, screens. Goalies didnt "become smarter", they simply "adapted", and it wasnt until the mid to late 80's that the equipment they used altered much. Palmateer introduced the "cheater" to his catcher, an extra 3" pad & web jobby, many followed, but that was about it for several years.

What ceases to amaze (and disappoint) me about todays goalies is their inability to control rebounds, their propensity to drop early and on every shot, and most frustratingly of all, an inability to skate with any modicum of proficiency. I mean, why bother with skates at all? Its a joke, and a bad one. They cant play North South, just "slide" East West on their knee's. Not all of them, guys like Thomas, certainly Smith down in Phoenix, there are some terrific Goaltenders out there no mistake, but on the whole? Pretty lousy. They dont make "saves", they "block" the net, and again, beg to differ, size matters. Equipments gotten a tad smaller since 03'ish sure, but hey, youve gotta be 6'0"+++ to even be out there anymore, and I for one dont enjoy watching a whole lot of it. Trappers are grossly oversized; pads were insane but have begun to resemble what they were designed for in the first place instead of the inflatable landing pads passengers might like to land on when evacuating an airplane; your chest protectors / shoulder pads gotta be cut down to size; get rid of the curved goalie sticks (bad rebound control) and ya, start holding out that catcher like a "pizza box" (as you put it) again, and "challenge" the shooter to beat you on the glovehand.... instead, their down on their knees more often than a streetwalker working the Mont Parnesse.
Great post.

I always laugh when people say that there were no goalie coaches in the 80s and the fat kid that couldn't skate got stuck in goal.



Last edited by Ogopogo*: 11-18-2012 at 02:52 AM.
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11-18-2012, 02:30 AM
  #98
Rhiessan71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Cant say I agree with a number of your assertions here RS, and I played goal through the 60's & early 70's, had I stuck it out pro from the mid 70's through 80's soooo.... For starters, Goalie Coaches have been around since, like, forever, though at the amateur levels sure enough, wasnt until the mid-60's that decent organizations & coaches starting using them. Usually the Uncle/Brother/Father or whatever of one of the players on your team who played Jr. or Pro helping out.... sortof like what Rhiessan does in Guelph Id imagine. At the Jr. levels, goaltenders received extensive coaching from the late 60's on; at the pro levels, from at least the early 70's onward, Bower for example in Toronto retained as a consultant amongst the many pretty much league wide. Hall worked with Esposito; Plante with Parent and so on. Was it as "intensive" as todays coaching? No, certainly not, as back then we didnt feel it was necessary to micromanage and frankly "over-coach" players.

Goalies (not all, but the elite) did indeed "challenge properly" through the 70's & 80's, to suggest otherwise is absurd. Thats what standups all about. What happened was that after the 72 Summit Series and much handwringing, the game changed from one of set patterns & lanes to one of constant cycling combined with equipment advances, skating skills, attention paid to off-ice conditioning & nutrition etc. The cycle game forced goaltenders back into their creases, relying more & more upon the Butterfly, used previously primarily on dekes, scrambles, screens. Goalies didnt "become smarter", they simply "adapted", and it wasnt until the mid to late 80's that the equipment they used altered much. Palmateer introduced the "cheater" to his catcher, an extra 3" pad & web jobby, many followed, but that was about it for several years.

What ceases to amaze (and disappoint) me about todays goalies is their inability to control rebounds, their propensity to drop early and on every shot, and most frustratingly of all, an inability to skate with any modicum of proficiency. I mean, why bother with skates at all? Its a joke, and a bad one. They cant play North South, just "slide" East West on their knee's. Not all of them, guys like Thomas, certainly Smith down in Phoenix, there are some terrific Goaltenders out there no mistake, but on the whole? Pretty lousy. They dont make "saves", they "block" the net, and again, beg to differ, size matters. Equipments gotten a tad smaller since 03'ish sure, but hey, youve gotta be 6'0"+++ to even be out there anymore, and I for one dont enjoy watching a whole lot of it. Trappers are grossly oversized; pads were insane but have begun to resemble what they were designed for in the first place instead of the inflatable landing pads passengers might like to land on when evacuating an airplane; your chest protectors / shoulder pads gotta be cut down to size; get rid of the curved goalie sticks (bad rebound control) and ya, start holding out that catcher like a "pizza box" (as you put it) again, and "challenge" the shooter to beat you on the glovehand.... instead, their down on their knees more often than a streetwalker working the Mont Parnesse.
+1

Today, it's all about playing the %'s and letting the puck hit you.
You used to have to make your own %'s so to speak. You used to have to be much more aggressive and come much further out of your net to get the same kind of % that today's goalies get butterflying at the top of their crease.

I hate reading posts talking about how much better today's goalie and today's "science" is.
That "new science" was only made possible by the new equipment.

You couldn't go into the 70's with today's "science" in that era equipment. You would get lit up like a X-mas tree sitting back in your crease and having at minimum 25% less blocking area.

Honestly, I wanna hear some more older goalies chime in. I KNOW they know what I'm talking about.


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 11-18-2012 at 02:37 AM.
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11-18-2012, 03:00 AM
  #99
Morgoth Bauglir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Cant say I agree with a number of your assertions here RS, and I played goal through the 60's & early 70's, had I stuck it out pro from the mid 70's through 80's soooo.... For starters, Goalie Coaches have been around since, like, forever, though at the amateur levels sure enough, wasnt until the mid-60's that decent organizations & coaches starting using them. Usually the Uncle/Brother/Father or whatever of one of the players on your team who played Jr. or Pro helping out.... sortof like what Rhiessan does in Guelph Id imagine. At the Jr. levels, goaltenders received extensive coaching from the late 60's on; at the pro levels, from at least the early 70's onward, Bower for example in Toronto retained as a consultant amongst the many pretty much league wide. Hall worked with Esposito; Plante with Parent and so on. Was it as "intensive" as todays coaching? No, certainly not, as back then we didnt feel it was necessary to micromanage and frankly "over-coach" players.

Goalies (not all, but the elite) did indeed "challenge properly" through the 70's & 80's, to suggest otherwise is absurd. Thats what standups all about. What happened was that after the 72 Summit Series and much handwringing, the game changed from one of set patterns & lanes to one of constant cycling combined with equipment advances, skating skills, attention paid to off-ice conditioning & nutrition etc. The cycle game forced goaltenders back into their creases, relying more & more upon the Butterfly, used previously primarily on dekes, scrambles, screens. Goalies didnt "become smarter", they simply "adapted", and it wasnt until the mid to late 80's that the equipment they used altered much. Palmateer introduced the "cheater" to his catcher, an extra 3" pad & web jobby, many followed, but that was about it for several years.

What ceases to amaze (and disappoint) me about todays goalies is their inability to control rebounds, their propensity to drop early and on every shot, and most frustratingly of all, an inability to skate with any modicum of proficiency. I mean, why bother with skates at all? Its a joke, and a bad one. They cant play North South, just "slide" East West on their knee's. Not all of them, guys like Thomas, certainly Smith down in Phoenix, there are some terrific Goaltenders out there no mistake, but on the whole? Pretty lousy. They dont make "saves", they "block" the net, and again, beg to differ, size matters. Equipments gotten a tad smaller since 03'ish sure, but hey, youve gotta be 6'0"+++ to even be out there anymore, and I for one dont enjoy watching a whole lot of it. Trappers are grossly oversized; pads were insane but have begun to resemble what they were designed for in the first place instead of the inflatable landing pads passengers might like to land on when evacuating an airplane; your chest protectors / shoulder pads gotta be cut down to size; get rid of the curved goalie sticks (bad rebound control) and ya, start holding out that catcher like a "pizza box" (as you put it) again, and "challenge" the shooter to beat you on the glovehand.... instead, their down on their knees more often than a streetwalker working the Mont Parnesse.
Game, set, and match

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11-18-2012, 04:30 AM
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Gigantor The Goalie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Cant say I agree with a number of your assertions here RS, and I played goal through the 60's & early 70's, had I stuck it out pro from the mid 70's through 80's soooo.... For starters, Goalie Coaches have been around since, like, forever, though at the amateur levels sure enough, wasnt until the mid-60's that decent organizations & coaches starting using them. Usually the Uncle/Brother/Father or whatever of one of the players on your team who played Jr. or Pro helping out.... sortof like what Rhiessan does in Guelph Id imagine. At the Jr. levels, goaltenders received extensive coaching from the late 60's on; at the pro levels, from at least the early 70's onward, Bower for example in Toronto retained as a consultant amongst the many pretty much league wide. Hall worked with Esposito; Plante with Parent and so on. Was it as "intensive" as todays coaching? No, certainly not, as back then we didnt feel it was necessary to micromanage and frankly "over-coach" players.

Goalies (not all, but the elite) did indeed "challenge properly" through the 70's & 80's, to suggest otherwise is absurd. Thats what standups all about. What happened was that after the 72 Summit Series and much handwringing, the game changed from one of set patterns & lanes to one of constant cycling combined with equipment advances, skating skills, attention paid to off-ice conditioning & nutrition etc. The cycle game forced goaltenders back into their creases, relying more & more upon the Butterfly, used previously primarily on dekes, scrambles, screens. Goalies didnt "become smarter", they simply "adapted", and it wasnt until the mid to late 80's that the equipment they used altered much. Palmateer introduced the "cheater" to his catcher, an extra 3" pad & web jobby, many followed, but that was about it for several years.

What ceases to amaze (and disappoint) me about todays goalies is their inability to control rebounds, their propensity to drop early and on every shot, and most frustratingly of all, an inability to skate with any modicum of proficiency. I mean, why bother with skates at all? Its a joke, and a bad one. They cant play North South, just "slide" East West on their knee's. Not all of them, guys like Thomas, certainly Smith down in Phoenix, there are some terrific Goaltenders out there no mistake, but on the whole? Pretty lousy. They dont make "saves", they "block" the net, and again, beg to differ, size matters. Equipments gotten a tad smaller since 03'ish sure, but hey, youve gotta be 6'0"+++ to even be out there anymore, and I for one dont enjoy watching a whole lot of it. Trappers are grossly oversized; pads were insane but have begun to resemble what they were designed for in the first place instead of the inflatable landing pads passengers might like to land on when evacuating an airplane; your chest protectors / shoulder pads gotta be cut down to size; get rid of the curved goalie sticks (bad rebound control) and ya, start holding out that catcher like a "pizza box" (as you put it) again, and "challenge" the shooter to beat you on the glovehand.... instead, their down on their knees more often than a streetwalker working the Mont Parnesse.
Goaltending has changed for the better. Whether if you thing its the right way or wrong way that doesn't matter. Goalies stop pucks, that's the point. Whether its by blocking or saving or whatever that doesn't matter. Back when hockey first started up goalies never went down, then the rules changed allowing goalies to go on your knees. If HFboards were around back then, you'd be complaining how goalies should not be allowed to go down on their knees as it was taking away skill.

Goaltending has been ever changing for the better of the position. I'm a goalie, I was taught the position by goalies who have been around for a long time. If the current style was wrong or didn't work it wouldn't be taught. The butterfly is more then just going down to your knees. Yes equipment helps, why shouldn't it? Equipment helps out the players, you can say hey baseball players can only use wooden bats. Well good for baseball, the people that are shooting the pucks at you are using any material other then pure wood to take shots at you.

Players job is to score goals, goalies job is to stop the puck. Like I said before the players make an advance in technology and we have to find a way to counter it. Your not getting the point that the game has changed, if this were 80's rules with 80's equipment then your style would work, however it is not.

This is 2012, we can wish all we want about how the goalies back then were way better and had more skill. Its never going to happen though, the 80's are over. You don't have to like the goaltending now, if its wrong go ahead and try and change it. Talk to goalie coach's and high level goalies. Ask them if we should go back to the 80's style of goaltending and equipment.

Give Sakic or MacInnis a composite stick back in the late 80's earlier 90's, you'll be wishing that you had decent size equipment real fast. Goalies have gotten bigger thats for sure, helps when the average height of humans increases as well. Size helps, Ken Dryden was considering massive in net and his size certainly helped.

If you want goalies to go back to the philosophy that we only need to protect ourselves, might as well use baseball catching gloves, player sticks, player gloves, player pants with a little more length and padding plus player shin pads. That's all we really need to protect ourselves. Guess the goalies in the 80's went a little bit overboard with those pads of theres when they could have been using something smaller.

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