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Dougie Hamilton vs Morgan Rielly

View Poll Results: Who would you take?
Dougie Hamilton 316 64.23%
Morgan Rielly 138 28.05%
too close to call 38 7.72%
Voters: 492. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-17-2012, 10:27 AM
  #251
Atomos2
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Ferraro is the same genius who gave us the Patrick Stefan quote. Hardly a good source.

He's certainly above the average Junior skater, but it's not like he's head and shoulders better than, say, Murray or Murphy. Of the NHL skaters, I don't think he quite matches up to someone like Karlsson, or even Fowler. He seems closer to Campbell's skating than he does Coffey.

I'm not saying Rielly isn't a terrific skater. He is, and he should only get better, but to compare him to Coffey he had better look like the best skater in the world, IMO. I think McKenzie is being overly generous with a comparison like that.
I'll take back what I said about Murphy not being as fast as Rielly. (Not sure if that was exactly what I said, but I feel I didn't give Murphy's speed much respect.) I'm watching Kitchener vs Erie right now and I just saw Murphy race for a puck at full speed (or pretty close) to get a breakaway. I'd say he's prolly as fast as Rielly. But I think Rielly uses his full speed and skating more efficiently and more often.

Side note: This Mcdavid kid is pretty cool to watch.

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Old
11-17-2012, 11:15 AM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
Put it this way, I just quickly used this site http://www.hockeynut.com/0607/round1.html to check defenseman drafted since 2006 (any earlier than that and they don't show the heights and I'm about to go to bed so you can expand further on your own if you like).

33 NHL defenseman have been drafted between 2006 and 2008 inclusive.

Of those 33, 8 (24%) are under 6,1 and their names are:

IVAN VISHNEVSKIY
MATTHEW CORRENTE
THOMAS HICKEY
KEVIN SHATTENKIRK
JONATHON BLUM
NICK ROSS
ERIK KARLSSON
MICHAEL DEL ZOTTO

Really 1 star player in this list, or 13% of those drafted in the first round. Again, usually small players aren't drafted as highly as tall players so obviously it's not the exact same with Rielly, I'm just speaking in general, it's harder for 6'0 small defenseman to make it.

ERIK JOHNSON
TY WISHART
MARK MITERA
DAVID FISCHER
BOBBY SANGUINETTI
DENNIS PERSSON
CHRIS SUMMERS
KARL ALZNER
KEATON ELLERBY
RYAN MCDONAGH
ALEX PLANTE
IAN COLE
BRENDAN SMITH
NICHOLAS PETRECKI
DREW DOUGHTY
ZACH BOGOSIAN
ALEX PIETRANGELO
LUKE SCHENN
TYLER MYERS
COLTEN TEUBERT
JAKE GARDINER
LUCA SBISA
TYLER CUMA
JOHN CARLSON

Of those, there's at least 5 star defenseman, and then there's still some up for debate like Schenn, Myers, Gardiner, Sbisa, Alzner, Carlson. At a bare minimum, 25% of those drafted turned out to be stars. If you add guys like those I spelled out for you it's jumping up to a crazy high proportion.

Again, no one is saying Rielly can't do it, it's just statistically harder for short defenseman to make it in the NHL as top guys (or even regulars).
How do top 5 picks pan out?

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Old
11-17-2012, 11:17 AM
  #253
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Originally Posted by bruinsfan46 View Post
Yes, being of West African descent is an advantage to play in the NBA. Just like it's an advantage in sprinting (72 of 76 men to break 10 second barrier are of West African descent) and an advantage to play halfback or cornerback (literally all black, hasn't been a white one in years) in the NFL. It's mainly genetics (and a little bit of culture).

This argument is absurd, I thought everybody knew height was an advantage for NHL defensemen. Guess not.
So logically, being white makes one a better hockey player.

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Old
11-17-2012, 11:19 AM
  #254
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Originally Posted by BudMovin View Post
Your dancing around the facts with random references and if you want to use any stat out of the NBA use height...Height is one of the characteristics that is looked at upon evaluating a prospect. So is natural build, so is skating ability, so is vision, so is release, ect. Sure you can work on those to make them better, but some people are just born with an advantage in those departments. Scouts look for height in a prospect just as they look for those other traits. It's not an end all benchmark for how a prospect will do, but it sure looks like teams look for the trait of being vertically blessed in their defensemen more often than not.

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...en/#more-14151

If you notice they keep referencing each prospect's height in the description, almost as if it means something. You can argue all you want that height doesn't contribute to how a player is evaluated in his total package. It is in fact a variable and it is a variable that is looked upon in a positive light.

I'm not going to argue this any further.


Get back to me when hockey is a vertical sport. Newsflash: height is also a big factor for high jumpers.

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Old
11-17-2012, 11:32 AM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
The fact that you would even post such a stupid comment shows me you aren't capable of understanding anything.

But just for closure, what percent of Canadian males (as a proxy for overall NHLers) are red-headed? What percent of Canadian NHLers have red hair? I would imagine it's a very similar percentage because it is totally irrelvant.

Now, what percent of the Canadian male population is smaller than 6'1? What percent of Canadian defenseman are smaller than 6'1? I just told you that 26% are. Are you meaning to tell me that only 26% of the male population in Canada is under 6'0? Because if you are you're exceptionally wrong.

And because I can see from your previous comment that you're going to need this: please don't get hung up on the Canadian part of the post it's only going to confuse you.

The argument isn't that you can't be 6'0 and be outstanding. Hell, the best defenseman in the league right now is 6'0 and Doughty is also 6'0. It's just a rare breed, that's all anyone was ever saying, I can't believe we are still discussing this.
The fact that you don't see how red hair has about as much bearing on the discussion we are having (heights in the norm of a bell curve) gives me idea that you like asinine arguments. Why you think we are debating heights of the general populace versus heights of NHL players is beyond me. We are debating the importance of height for people within the norm in the NHL. Unless you or others are foolish enough to believe that Da Vinci's Vitruvian man (created over 500 years ago) is some fool proof idea (one which science will clearly show you to be incorrect), I'd LOVE to hear all the clear benefits of 2 or 3 inches in height.

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Old
11-17-2012, 12:08 PM
  #256
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So its comes down to Morgan Rielly is to short

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11-17-2012, 12:29 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
The fact that you don't see how red hair has about as much bearing on the discussion we are having (heights in the norm of a bell curve) gives me idea that you like asinine arguments. Why you think we are debating heights of the general populace versus heights of NHL players is beyond me. We are debating the importance of height for people within the norm in the NHL. Unless you or others are foolish enough to believe that Da Vinci's Vitruvian man (created over 500 years ago) is some fool proof idea (one which science will clearly show you to be incorrect), I'd LOVE to hear all the clear benefits of 2 or 3 inches in height.
So you're saying being taller than 6 feet has no bearing on success in hockey. Please explain to me why there are so few defenseman at 6 feet or lower in the NHL considering there are so many people in Canada who are in that height category.

Thanks in advance.


Last edited by Sureves: 11-17-2012 at 12:57 PM.
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Old
11-17-2012, 12:35 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
So you're saying being taller than 6 feet has no bearing on success in hockey. Please explain to me why there are so few defenseman at 6 feet or lower in the NHL considering there are so many people in Canada who are in that height category.

Thank in advance.
Its parameters your skewing in your favour. I can easily say something like Sasha Barkov does not deserve to be picked ahead of Sean Monahan because statistically there are more elite Canadian players than their are Finnish. Does that make it true? I mean the stats conform to my statement but how narrow-minded would you have to be to believe it.

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11-17-2012, 12:56 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by chrisx101 View Post
Its parameters your skewing in your favour. I can easily say something like Sasha Barkov does not deserve to be picked ahead of Sean Monahan because statistically there are more elite Canadian players than their are Finnish. Does that make it true? I mean the stats conform to my statement but how narrow-minded would you have to be to believe it.
I'm not skewing anything in my favour, I'm completely impartial in my assessment and as such have no "favour" to speak of.

I'm just simply saying that both look to be fantastic prospects with high upside. I don't see one distinguishably better than the other at this point, so all else being equal, I'll take the guy who has the physical attributes that generally give a defenseman an advantage in the NHL over the guy who has physical attributes that seem to be very rare in the NHL and thus likely an indication that those attributes are detrimental to overall play.

I really didn't think we'd still be talking about this at this point. It was a very innocent and fair comment.

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Old
11-17-2012, 01:07 PM
  #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
I'm not skewing anything in my favour, I'm completely impartial in my assessment and as such have no "favour" to speak of.

I'm just simply saying that both look to be fantastic prospects with high upside. I don't see one distinguishably better than the other at this point, so all else being equal, I'll take the guy who has the physical attributes that generally give a defenseman an advantage in the NHL over the guy who has physical attributes that seem to be very rare in the NHL and thus likely an indication that those attributes are detrimental to overall play.

I really didn't think we'd still be talking about this at this point. It was a very innocent and fair comment.
Are these attributes absolutely necessary and rare for an offensive puck moving defenceman? We are not talking about a defensive dman that needs to be physical, we are talking about a dman who runs the powerplay and needs to put up points to be effective. Maybe you should try taking statistics on those type of players.

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11-17-2012, 01:45 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
So logically, being white makes one a better hockey player.
Tough to say since there's not that many black hockey players to choose from. I would say socio-economic status has a lot to do with hockey though since it's a game that needs to be developed (due to everything about it being unnatural as opposed to football and basketball which are more natural sports if you're a great athlete). The best way to be developed is through expensive travel teams and private ice time which obviously directly relates to socio-economic status. So it may indirectly go back to race since whites are on average much wealthier than blacks but I doubt there's any direct cause as may be the case for football/basketball/sprinting/etc.

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11-17-2012, 01:52 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Atomos2 View Post
Are these attributes absolutely necessary and rare for an offensive puck moving defenceman? We are not talking about a defensive dman that needs to be physical, we are talking about a dman who runs the powerplay and needs to put up points to be effective. Maybe you should try taking statistics on those type of players.
I don't see how that's relevant. The question is which I'd take on my team right now if I had to gamble.

I'm concerned with getting a top-end NHL defenseman: not specifically trying to get an offensive defenseman.

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11-17-2012, 02:11 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
I don't see how that's relevant. The question is which I'd take on my team right now if I had to gamble.

I'm concerned with getting a top-end NHL defenseman: not specifically trying to get an offensive defenseman.
Well seeing how Morgan Rielly is a prototypical offensive defenceman, like Kris Letang, like Erik Karlsson, like Tomas Kaberle, like Drew Doughty, like Cam Fowler, like Pk Subban etc, you'd think you'd want to see how well they fare rather than taking statistics of all dman despite the fact that some enter the league as offensive dman and some enter as defensive dman (which you could argue could effect the ratio of those entering the league based on height). It's not all black and white. There are plenty of top-end offensive dman that are around Rielly's height.

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11-17-2012, 02:17 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Atomos2 View Post
Well seeing how Morgan Rielly is a prototypical offensive defenceman, like Kris Letang, like Erik Karlsson, like Tomas Kaberle, like Drew Doughty, like Cam Fowler, like Pk Subban etc, you'd think you'd want to see how well they fare rather than taking statistics of all dman despite the fact that some enter the league as offensive dman and some enter as defensive dman (which you could argue could effect the ratio of those entering the league based on height). It's not all black and white. There are plenty of top-end offensive dman that are around Rielly's height.
Who said there wasn't? The point is they are rare, how do you not understand this? I'm truly flabbergasted.

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11-17-2012, 02:38 PM
  #265
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Being 6 feet tall as a NHL defenseman is not extremely rare, it's not rare at all especially when talking about offensive defensemen, like Rielly and Hamilton are.

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11-17-2012, 03:05 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
Being 6 feet tall as a NHL defenseman is not extremely rare, it's not rare at all especially when talking about offensive defensemen, like Rielly and Hamilton are.
That is not the argument. What some people are trying to argue is that height is not at all important in the total package of a defensemen. Some even said that it is a hindrance to be taller. Sureves and I merely used statistics to show that since the majority of defensemen are tall, it is a trait that scouts look at in a positive light when evaluating talent.

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11-17-2012, 03:59 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by BudMovin View Post
That is not the argument. What some people are trying to argue is that height is not at all important in the total package of a defensemen. Some even said that it is a hindrance to be taller. Sureves and I merely used statistics to show that since the majority of defensemen are tall, it is a trait that scouts look at in a positive light when evaluating talent.
Exactly.

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11-17-2012, 10:02 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
Who said there wasn't? The point is they are rare, how do you not understand this? I'm truly flabbergasted.
Well if you are trying to use this as a point to say Hamilton has an advantage over Rielly, think of something different because this is not a strong argument at all.

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11-17-2012, 10:31 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by Atomos2 View Post
Well if you are trying to use this as a point to say Hamilton has an advantage over Rielly, think of something different because this is not a strong argument at all.
And we've come full circle. Go re-read my posts if you still don't get it.

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11-17-2012, 10:50 PM
  #270
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And we've come full circle. Go re-read my posts if you still don't get it.
Meh, I'd rather not.

As long as you realize that relating Rielly to a statistic where most of the people aren't even close to having Rielly's skill and skating ability is pointless and should not even have been discussed in this thread if there was no intended relation to Rielly.

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11-18-2012, 09:01 AM
  #271
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Originally Posted by Atomos2 View Post
Meh, I'd rather not.

As long as you realize that relating Rielly to a statistic where most of the people aren't even close to having Rielly's skill and skating ability is pointless and should not even have been discussed in this thread if there was no intended relation to Rielly.
But there is an intended relation to Rielly. What I'm saying is it's tough to make it as a 6,0 defenseman as evidenced by the fact that there are so few 6'0 defenseman, and that Rielly is a 6'0 defenseman and as such I question whether or not he's as much of a sure-thing as Hamilton is since they both appear to be of tremendous potential.

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11-18-2012, 10:09 AM
  #272
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Best case scenario for Hamilton is a Chara type player. For Reilly, it is Duncan Keith.

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11-18-2012, 10:17 AM
  #273
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Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
But there is an intended relation to Rielly. What I'm saying is it's tough to make it as a 6,0 defenseman as evidenced by the fact that there are so few 6'0 defenseman, and that Rielly is a 6'0 defenseman and as such I question whether or not he's as much of a sure-thing as Hamilton is since they both appear to be of tremendous potential.
Rielly was actually measured closer to 6'1" at the combine. It's not a stretch that he'll grow at least half an inch. Being a 6'1" defenseman is fine. Especially with his hockey IQ and skating.

Also I don't know what you are saying about the whole "sure thing" stuff because numerous people including Bob Mckenzie and Brian Burke think that he could step into the NHL right away. Unless you're arguing that Rielly's (average) size puts a cap on just how good he can be.... Well then that's not very smart either.

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11-18-2012, 11:05 AM
  #274
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Best case scenario for Hamilton is a Chara type player. For Reilly, it is Duncan Keith.
I don't get why people compare Hamilton to Chara... He will not be nearly as good defensively as him.

He's not a Chara-type player by any standards, besides the fact that he's tall.

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11-18-2012, 12:57 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Best case scenario for Hamilton is a Chara type player. For Reilly, it is Duncan Keith.
Hamilton is nothing like Chara.

I think a very good comparison for Hamilton is Brent Burns.

Reilly game is tough to compare to others for me because he is quite unique, Campbell is a decent comparison but Reilly is more dynamic.

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