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NHL Lockout Discussion: Despite All My Rage I Am Still Just A Rat In A Cage

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Old
11-17-2012, 01:14 PM
  #51
Gigantor The Goalie
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Originally Posted by officeglen View Post
Why can't the NHL move on contract issues?
The NHL could move on contract issues if the PA were to ever address them. As of now the only thing the PA has done is offer up delinked cap proposals.

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11-17-2012, 01:14 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by officeglen View Post
Why can't the NHL move on contract issues?
They could but if what we've heard about the hardline stance is true then it's unlikely they will.

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11-17-2012, 01:16 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by thinicer View Post
You disagree? If the game/sport is truly the product, then the NHL would be no more popular than the AHL, ECHL or any of the Canadian leagues, right? The market would be very saturated, but because the game/sport is NOT the product, the NHL is way above these leagues in popularity. What makes the NHL different? It differentiates itself from the others because it's where the best players in the world play, thus proving my point that the players ARE the product. If they were not, the fans would have no problem whatsoever with the NHL locking out.
I guess we all look at it differently.

My all-time favorite player is Vinny Prospal. However, I didn't buy my season tickets to watch Vinny Prospal play. I didn't cancel my season tickets when he left. I don't buy my season tickets to watch specific players, I buy them to watch my team. When Lecavalier, St. Louis and Stamkos are gone, I'll still be a fan of the Tampa Bay Lightning.

As far as players go, I'll quote my best hockey buddy: "They're all temporary." The teams and the sport, however, remain. There will always be players (of varying skill levels, just as there are now), but without the teams they'd have nowhere to play. So, IMO, the game's the product.

It's an opinion thing - no wrong or right, just different.

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Old
11-17-2012, 01:19 PM
  #54
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great thread title OP

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Old
11-17-2012, 01:20 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by uncleherman77 View Post
They could but if what we've heard about the hardline stance is true then it's unlikely they will.
IMO, the "it doesn't matter if they're talking or not talking" is a result of hardline stances, perhaps they could have a moratorium on them

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11-17-2012, 01:20 PM
  #56
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Also why's snider talking like the NHL won't get a better deal then what they're offering now? All they have to do is wait the players out and they can get everything they want without even having to negotiate. 04-05 proved this.

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11-17-2012, 01:21 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
I guess we all look at it differently.

My all-time favorite player is Vinny Prospal. However, I didn't buy my season tickets to watch Vinny Prospal play. I didn't cancel my season tickets when he left. I don't buy my season tickets to watch specific players, I buy them to watch my team. When Lecavalier, St. Louis and Stamkos are gone, I'll still be a fan of the Tampa Bay Lightning.

As far as players go, I'll quote my best hockey buddy: "They're all temporary." The teams and the sport, however, remain. There will always be players (of varying skill levels, just as there are now), but without the teams they'd have nowhere to play. So, IMO, the game's the product.

It's an opinion thing - no wrong or right, just different.
I tend to agree with you on this. The NHL provides the teams and games that the best players in the world want to play in. Thus, making it the best hockey product/league in the world. Fans have developed a love for their team and the players that don the jersey. Those players come and go, and there are a few we really love, but when they leave we still love our team and the product that is NHL hockey.

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11-17-2012, 01:23 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
12.3% is misleading because it's using last years numbers. Had the players agreed to 50/50 in the summer and there was no lockout for fans to be pissed about, there would have been growth to HRR that would make the pay cut much less than 12.3%.
There was no 50/50 offer on the table for them to agree to in the summer. In the summer, they were being offered 43% - a 14% reduction in HRR , 24.5% less relative to their previous share. Bettman has looked like a jerk ever since.

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11-17-2012, 01:25 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by officeglen View Post
IMO, the "it doesn't matter if they're talking or not talking" is a result of hardline stances, perhaps they could have a moratorium on them
I've tried to find it without success, but I seem to have a clear memory of Mr. Bettman saying the contract issues are definitely negotiable. I suspect the "hard line" stance stuff is in direct response to the union's hard line stance on, well, everything. I feel pretty sure if the union will just start actually negotiating, the league will do the same on the contract issues. I think they're just done negotiating with themselves and the rumors about not budging on the contract issues are to get that message across.

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11-17-2012, 01:29 PM
  #60
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A source familiar with Snider's thinking characterized it as: "If this is the deal we are going to get, what's the point of dragging this out?"
Of course there is dissension within the owners, just as I'm sure there is dissension on the side of the players.

But here's the thing - even if they fired Bettman, what are the owners going to do? Just cave and sign the player's last offer which contains no details beyond the revenue split?

Snider might be discontent but if the lockout ended right now, which deal is more likely to get signed? The NHL's or the NHLPA's?

It is a crime against the players that their union has proposed NO substantive proposals so far, and has not formally set their stance on important issues like FA rights. If Fehr had done anything of substance to this point, we should be debating two meaningful proposals.

He hasn't, so the article is a little silly. The owners aren't the ones drawing it out anyways, so what would pressuring Gary do other than let Snider blow off steam?

And please, no magic bullet hidden proposals or 'lockout to end lockouts'. Those are silly arguments that in the end aren't going to put all that lost money back into player's pockets.

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11-17-2012, 01:31 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Fifty Fifty View Post
There was no 50/50 offer on the table for them to agree to in the summer. In the summer, they were being offered 43% - a 14% reduction in HRR , 24.5% less relative to their previous share. Bettman has looked like a jerk ever since.
You know, I think I could deal with a jerk if it meant I saved $200M out of $335M.

Please, let's stop with this 'insulting' offer thing. It was so insulting that they chose to lose salary? Well, that wasn't a good decision by the NHLPA (and I distinguish them from the actual PLAYERS).

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11-17-2012, 01:32 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
I've tried to find it without success, but I seem to have a clear memory of Mr. Bettman saying the contract issues are definitely negotiable. I suspect the "hard line" stance stuff is in direct response to the union's hard line stance on, well, everything. I feel pretty sure if the union will just start actually negotiating, the league will do the same on the contract issues. I think they're just done negotiating with themselves and the rumors about not budging on the contract issues are to get that message across.
On Sunday the NHL did not refute this:

"The owners made it clear that there is no give with respect to any of their proposals," Fehr said. "That unless players are prepared to take -- and this is my phrase, not theirs -- down to the comma, that there's nothing to do.

"We're past the point of give and take. That's what I was told Gary (Bettman) said when I was out of the meeting."

(various articles, such as: http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/86...talks-new-york)

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11-17-2012, 01:36 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by officeglen View Post
Why can't the NHL move on contract issues?
Dreger mentioned it on That's Hockey. His theory being the owners are avoiding it because they do not want the players to keep it as a bargaining tool but not actually negotiate. Basically, they are only backing off if the players agree to everything else.

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11-17-2012, 01:37 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by officeglen View Post
On Sunday the NHL did not refute this:

"The owners made it clear that there is no give with respect to any of their proposals," Fehr said. "That unless players are prepared to take -- and this is my phrase, not theirs -- down to the comma, that there's nothing to do.

"We're past the point of give and take. That's what I was told Gary (Bettman) said when I was out of the meeting."

(various articles, such as: http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/86...talks-new-york)
Again, you have to take both sides with a grain of salt. Of course Fehr is going to characterize this like the NHL isn't willing to compromise at all, and the NHL is going to say the opposite.

If you look at ACTIONS taken so far, I'd say that the NHL would move on contracting if the NHLPA would admit to ANY linkage whatsoever.

Remember, the context in which Fehr asked the NHL if they were moving on contract rights (and he says this himself) was - hypothetically if we were to agree, WHICH WE WON'T, would you move on contract rights?

It was a dumb question to begin with IMO.

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Old
11-17-2012, 01:43 PM
  #65
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Bettman is the one who is ********.

Really I haven't seen him call players idiots, and send out asinie tweets showing his lack of intelligence.


And I can't help you if you can't see what the owners are trying to do here.


I see exactly what they are trying to do lower/controll costs to make the owning of a team more profitable.


Why should the players be the ones to give it up? And while the owners do take financial risk, they are in the situation they are in because they cannot control their own employees (the GMs) who give out these ridiculous contracts. And they would be in better financial shape if they weren't required to prop up teams that are in lousy markets - are the players to blame for that or is Bettman?

The players are the biggest expense they have benefited the most from the last CBA so you would think they should be the one to bear the brunt of it. Unfortuneately in most cities (outside toronto and maybe a few others) you have to put a product on the ice that people want to see or they will find other things to spend there money on. So yeah the teams were stuck with trying to do those contracts to compete due to loopholes in the old CBA. And if you noticed Gary isn't just trying to punish players there are poison pills in the new CBA to punish the teams that gave out those contracts. Most of the teams in "lousy markets" have been mis-managed. For god sakes the Panthers were out of the playoffs for a decade. Its hard to grow a sport in a non traditional market when the product stinks



They chose to buy teams and they choose to support Bettman who has placed teams in unsustainable markets. They also choose to employ people (GMs) who give out moronic contracts. How can they agree to contracts like the ones they negotiated in the 48hrs preceding the lockout and then claim two days later that they are poor?
Why wouldn't they support Bettman he got a salary cap when the players swore they'd retire before playing under one. Then after the cap revenues grew and so did players salary. Teams found loopholes in the cap and exploited them now the league tries to close them and the league is the bad guy? And you acting like the players are these poor innocent exploited workers give me a break. All those players signed those contracts knowing that a new CBA was coming that could change the net payout of those contractss. So you need to pick one are the players poor innocent dupes or did they know the CBA was coming and try to get as much up front money as they could in those contracts? If the players really are smart woulldn't they know Gary was going to go for a paycut to @ 50-50 with the new CBA and that it would affect their contracts?

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Old
11-17-2012, 01:43 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by officeglen View Post
On Sunday the NHL did not refute this:

"The owners made it clear that there is no give with respect to any of their proposals," Fehr said. "That unless players are prepared to take -- and this is my phrase, not theirs -- down to the comma, that there's nothing to do.

"We're past the point of give and take. That's what I was told Gary (Bettman) said when I was out of the meeting."

(various articles, such as: http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/86...talks-new-york)
Yes, I saw Mr. Fehr's take on the situation. The most notable part of his quote, IMO, is the "that's what I was told." He's going on secondhand information. As for not refuting - the league hasn't done much direct responding to this sort of media gamesmanship, so I'm not surprised at that.

I still believe that the league will agree to modify their contract issue stance once the NHLPA begins to negotiate at least one of the many things they've refused to "give" on. Lots of things are said in the course of negotiations, and when one side continues to refuse to engage in any meaningful discussion, what's said to them is going to become stronger and stronger. Doesn't mean much (IMO), just trying to push the union to actually get down to business and start talking.

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11-17-2012, 01:43 PM
  #67
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So you have players expressing that time is of the essence and they don't want to wait two weeks to talk. You have a player that's said that he wished they had taken one of the last two offers the league presented. And now there's an article out about an owner ready to just call it in. In the past 24 hours, information has been released (accurate or not) that suggests that there are cracks on both sides. Do both sides use this as leverage to 'wait it out' or do they recognize that there's a deal to be had with some serious negotiating and try to get something done right now? I'm now anxious to see communication between both sides and commentary. That should give both sides a better idea of how the other will proceed.

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11-17-2012, 01:46 PM
  #68
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Ugh

I'd love to have ONE thread without the term "********" appearing. I guess this won't be that thread...
Well if you are the one who started the thread and copied the first few posts from the other one over you have nobody but yourself to blame.

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11-17-2012, 01:47 PM
  #69
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So you have players expressing that time is of the essence and they don't want to wait two weeks to talk. You have a player that's said that he wished they had taken one of the last two offers the league presented. And now there's an article out about an owner ready to just call it in. In the past 24 hours, information has been released (accurate or not) that suggests that there are cracks on both sides. Do both sides use this as leverage to 'wait it out' or do they recognize that there's a deal to be had with some serious negotiating and try to get something done right now? I'm now anxious to see communication between both sides and commentary. That should give both sides a better idea of how the other will proceed.
I would imagine that would depend on the extent of division on either side. If one side, or both sides, feel like they are too deeply divided they will be more likely to give concessions. If one side feels they are still solidified for the most part they may try to use the other side's apparent divisions as leverage.

We will see

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11-17-2012, 01:48 PM
  #70
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By the way, I find it so amusing when Allen Walsh continues to say that the players are universally together in this process as a way to debunk all comments and articles that suggests they aren't but then he retweets the Snyder article like 10 times. If the media has sensationalized the divide among the players, wouldn't common sense suggest that you shouldn't readily believe what the media says about the owner's solidarity? Food for thought Walsh.

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11-17-2012, 01:49 PM
  #71
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Now Giroux got hurt in Europe, time for old Ed to go nuts and put his foot down. The Perfect Storm !!

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11-17-2012, 01:50 PM
  #72
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Again, you have to take both sides with a grain of salt. Of course Fehr is going to characterize this like the NHL isn't willing to compromise at all, and the NHL is going to say the opposite.

If you look at ACTIONS taken so far, I'd say that the NHL would move on contracting if the NHLPA would admit to ANY linkage whatsoever.

Remember, the context in which Fehr asked the NHL if they were moving on contract rights (and he says this himself) was - hypothetically if we were to agree, WHICH WE WON'T, would you move on contract rights?

It was a dumb question to begin with IMO.
In collective bargaining there aren't any actions (or in caps if you prefer), aside from the direct ones (lockout, strike etc.). It's just a variety of positions, spins, stances etc., and, as you said, you have to take those with a salt shaker.

Since the NHL is "giving" based on their original lowball offer, instead of actually giving based on the current CBA, they need to suggest they would hypothetically move on contract rights to kickstart the talks.

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11-17-2012, 01:54 PM
  #73
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@andystrickland: Bill Daly says he expects negotations to resume shortly and that there wasn't much truth to #NHL looking to take a two week break #NHLPA

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11-17-2012, 01:56 PM
  #74
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I would imagine that would depend on the extent of division on either side. If one side, or both sides, feel like they are too deeply divided they will be more likely to give concessions. If one side feels they are still solidified for the most part they may try to use the other side's apparent divisions as leverage.

We will see
And it's the latter that I'm worried about. Reports say that the PA want to meet with the NHL next week and Daly and Fehr have been speaking with one another about the possibility. If the PA again says we want to meet but with no preconditions, especially after this article, I can totally see Bettman declining unless they either want to negotiate off their last proposal or submit a new proposal of their own. I think Bettman will take the opportunity (if it presents itself) to let the players come to the conclusion that either they shouldn't believe everything they read and think they have leverage over the owners or Snyder is only one vote and they shouldn't wait it out in hopes that Snyder will end this for them. It's just my worry that if the PA doesn't approach this differently from how they have in the past (and I honestly don't believe that their particularly approach is the reason for the owners moving off their original percentage, make whole or RS), Bettman will shut them down, at least right now, to make the point that despite what the PA has read or thinks, the league isn't playing games nor will they roll over.

But you're right, we'll have to wait and see.

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11-17-2012, 01:58 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
It just boggles my mind that the players are willing to forfeit an entire year of their short playing careers and millions of dollars over a 7% reduction in HRR and some contract restrictions that only a few players took advantage of anyway (IIRC someone posted that under 100 players have contracts that are 6 years or longer).

This lockout will not only cost them millions of real dollars this year it will hurt HRR, which will cost them potential dollars down the road.

****ing idiots.

^^^^ this!

The league and the owners have made some incredibly moronic mistakes, but none so bad as the players that seem to be willing to sit out a year or more to prove... exactly what point, I have no idea.

at the end of the day, $0 << anything* the owners would be willing to pay you

* = $2.3m~ salary

I'm shocked more than anything.

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