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Old
11-17-2012, 02:41 PM
  #876
Numbers
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
While he has politely given Gillis time and an opportunity to trade him by not forcing his hand and “demanding a trade”, it is a given the future is not long for Luongo and the Canucks.
Ok so what are your trade proposals for Luongo? Your talk is cheap. Also consider that current CBA proposals have stated cap will stay where it is this year and decrease next year, which means Vancouver is in no dire need to dispel cap space.

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11-17-2012, 02:42 PM
  #877
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Originally Posted by mstad101 View Post
I really don't have too rookie, every single one of your 21 posts have been discredited in this thread. Even got shot down on claiming you didn't state Luongo asked for a trade. It was literally your secon sentence.

So again please keep telling me how you're right and I'm wrong when I've been a religious Canucks fan for the past 16 years of my life. Have literally watched every season Luongo had been a Canuck and have talked and posted on here since like 07.
Please I truly enjoy watching you talk in circles and showing me no real facts, just speculation and opinion.

And yes, when Vancouver has to shed salary, it won't be Luongo on waivers, but depth guys who carry multi million cap hits. Like Ballard 4.2, Raymond 2.275, and Malhotra 2.5. Which by my math is over 10 million. Now if the cap goes to 60 million, Vancouver is quite easily under this number.

Lets not forget the Canucks have legally played over the cap for the past three or more seasons. Having Gillis and Gillman running the ship, money never seems to be a problem.
Which three players have to be REPLACED. It's fair to say that would only save them 7M at best.

And remember, if you read my whole post, the cap will be a problem for Vancouver if they plan on IMPROVING their team. Sure they can dump guys and replace them with rookies but that doesn't make them better.

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Old
11-17-2012, 02:43 PM
  #878
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
It is a given the future is not long for Luongo and the Canucks.
Source?

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Old
11-17-2012, 02:44 PM
  #879
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
Under current cap.
sedin (6.1) sedin (6.1) burrows (4.5)
booth (4.25) kesler (5.0) xxxxxx
kassian (0.87) xxxxxxx hansen (1.35)
xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx

bieksa (4.6) hamhuis (4.5)
garrison (4.6) xxxxxxx
ballard (4.2) xxxxxxx

schneider (4)
luongo (5.3)

“with the above players signed it is a total of apx. $57.M committed to the cap with gillis needing to sign 5 forwards and 2 defenseman. assuming that the cap hit is in fact $70 million it would give apx. $12.5 million to sign the remaining 7 players.” Even worse if within a season the cap is graded down to 60M and of course Edler is to be signed.
Based on fact...

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Daniel Sedin ($6.100m) / Henrik Sedin ($6.100m) / Alexandre Burrows ($2.000m)
David Booth ($4.250m) / Ryan Kesler ($5.000m) / Jannik Hansen ($1.350m)
Mason Raymond ($2.275m) / Manny Malhotra ($2.500m) / Zack Kassian ($0.870m)
Chris Higgins ($1.900m) / Maxim Lapierre ($1.000m) / Dale Weise ($0.615m)
Aaron Volpatti ($0.600m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Kevin Bieksa ($4.600m) / Jason Garrison ($4.600m)
Dan Hamhuis ($4.500m) / Keith Ballard ($4.200m)
Alexander Edler ($3.250m) / Andrew Alberts ($1.225m)
Chris Tanev ($0.900m) /
GOALTENDERS
Roberto Luongo ($5.333m)
Cory Schneider ($4.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $67,168,333; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $3,031,667

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Old
11-17-2012, 02:44 PM
  #880
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
the cap will be a problem for Vancouver if they plan on IMPROVING their team. Sure they can dump guys and replace them with rookies but that doesn't make them better.
Please provide facts to back up that statement.

Vancouver can easily improve dumping bad contracts and bringing in rookies.

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11-17-2012, 02:45 PM
  #881
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Ok so what are your trade proposals for Luongo? Your talk is cheap. Also consider that current CBA proposals have stated cap will stay where it is this year and decrease next year, which means Vancouver is in no dire need to dispel cap space.
Which is why I have indicated within a years time.

And it's another myth that because I present this information that I think Luongo will not get Vancouver back something of value. In fact I think he will.

To speculate as to what, it's hard to say. All I can say confidently is that no one will trade their 2013 pick until they figure out what the order of the draft is going to be, and pending UFA players probably won't be involved until GM's are sure what their contract status is going to be, and that the move will be made within a years time.

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11-17-2012, 02:48 PM
  #882
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
Which is why I have indicated within a years time.

And it's another myth that because I present this information that I think Luongo will not get Vancouver back something of value. In fact I think he will.

To speculate as to what, it's hard to say. All I can say confidently is that no one will trade their 2013 pick until they figure out what the order of the draft is going to be, and pending UFA players probably won't be involved until GM's are sure what their contract status is going to be, and that the move will be made within a years time.
You can speculate on so many other things, why can't you make a proposal. Once again your talk is cheap.

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Old
11-17-2012, 02:48 PM
  #883
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
Which three players have to be REPLACED. It's fair to say that would only save them 7M at best.

And remember, if you read my whole post, the cap will be a problem for Vancouver if they plan on IMPROVING their team. Sure they can dump guys and replace them with rookies but that doesn't make them better.
Neither does dumping Luongo for scraps.

For the umpteenth time, we're all okay with trading Luongo as long as we end up a better team. So that means a top-6 forward would almost have to be included, or a very strong futures package that could be flipped for a forward at the deadline.

Gillis won't trade Luongo unless it improves the team. Any other GM would be willing to give up as much for Luongo as Luongo would be an improvement to their team. Therefore the return would be somewhere between the least value that would make us better than having Luongo, and the most each team could give up for Luongo without making them worse off.

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Old
11-17-2012, 02:49 PM
  #884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HamhuisHip View Post
Based on fact...

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Daniel Sedin ($6.100m) / Henrik Sedin ($6.100m) / Alexandre Burrows ($2.000m)
David Booth ($4.250m) / Ryan Kesler ($5.000m) / Jannik Hansen ($1.350m)
Mason Raymond ($2.275m) / Manny Malhotra ($2.500m) / Zack Kassian ($0.870m)
Chris Higgins ($1.900m) / Maxim Lapierre ($1.000m) / Dale Weise ($0.615m)
Aaron Volpatti ($0.600m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Kevin Bieksa ($4.600m) / Jason Garrison ($4.600m)
Dan Hamhuis ($4.500m) / Keith Ballard ($4.200m)
Alexander Edler ($3.250m) / Andrew Alberts ($1.225m)
Chris Tanev ($0.900m) /
GOALTENDERS
Roberto Luongo ($5.333m)
Cory Schneider ($4.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $67,168,333; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $3,031,667
How is that an improvement? It's the same team?

And Burrows maybe at 4.5m instead of 2m depending when hockey resumes. I appreciate posting numbers but that's essentially the same team dancing the top of the cap.

My point is contingent on the Canucks improving, which I thinkit's fair to assume Canuck fans think they need.

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Old
11-17-2012, 02:50 PM
  #885
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Neither does dumping Luongo for scraps.
And it's another myth that because I present this information that I think Luongo will not get Vancouver back something of value. In fact I think he will.

Just saying, I never said he should be dumped for scraps. I said that in my initial post too.

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Old
11-17-2012, 02:53 PM
  #886
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
How is that an improvement? It's the same team?

And Burrows maybe at 4.5m instead of 2m depending when hockey resumes. I appreciate posting numbers but that's essentially the same team dancing the top of the cap.

My point is contingent on the Canucks improving, which I thinkit's fair to assume Canuck fans think they need.
We added Garrison in the off season, and hopefully we'll be injury free when the playoffs start. I think we're the best team in the West, and while obviously we want to improve, the return for Luongo should address that or we may as well keep the insurance in net.

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11-17-2012, 02:53 PM
  #887
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
You can speculate on so many other things, why can't you make a proposal. Once again your talk is cheap.
What's the point in making a proposal when someone will rebuttal with "no because x and y" when I'm trying to settle the "x" and "y" first?

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11-17-2012, 02:54 PM
  #888
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
Please provide facts to back up that statement.

Vancouver can easily improve dumping bad contracts and bringing in rookies.
Vancouver has the third worst ranked prospect pool in the league. Who are these great replacement rookies that aren't already up with the big club?

Raymond, Malhotra and Ballard are all NHL quality players.

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Old
11-17-2012, 02:55 PM
  #889
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
We added Garrison in the off season, and hopefully we'll be injury free when the playoffs start. I think we're the best team in the West, and while obviously we want to improve, the return for Luongo should address that or we may as well keep the insurance in net.
Hey, you guys could win the cup with that team. I'm not a hater, but that roster still isn't the most effective use of assets all things considered.

An improvement can only increase the Canuck's chances and Lu is the best way to do that. I don't disagree with that.

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11-17-2012, 02:55 PM
  #890
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
and it's another myth that because i present this information that i think luongo will not get vancouver back something of value. In fact i think he will.

just saying, i never said he should be dumped for scraps. I said that in my initial post too.
everything you have said is a myth.

By the way thanks for responding to my other posts, you know the ones with "facts".

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11-17-2012, 02:56 PM
  #891
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
What's the point in making a proposal when someone will rebuttal with "no because x and y" when I'm trying to settle the "x" and "y" first?
Why not just make a proposal of what you think will be traded. Why are you apprehensive to this, I mean its HFboards, not court of law. You have so many things to say you must have some player ideas rattling around.

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Old
11-17-2012, 02:57 PM
  #892
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Wow, i'm not sure how to respond. Other than Sundin and maybe Schenn...are any of those players anything but old underperforming players? Do i think our roster is better now...Hell ya, which would you choose? And of course it's addition by subtraction, but the players he added are much younger and for the most part better than what he lost.
Oh no, definite improvement, but Sundin, Schenn and a few others, I will point out guys that were performing at least as well as players you've listed as being improvements, (ie Hagman) as well. McCabe was still serviceable, and Kaberle was totally mishandled, and when he was moved he was still only a few seasons removed from a few very good seasons point wise.

Some have been more effective in new homes too (Antropov, White, Stempniak).

Quote:
Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
Burke can only be accountable for his moves.
Oh no, fair enough, Gerber, McCabe (traded for Van Ryn), Wellwood (put on waivers...as his contract was coming due) and I thought Tucker and O'Neill (who in fairness I believe was injured...again memory is a little shaky there) were Burke too. Looking back, why I have Tucker included there twice is baffling.

Belfour, Peca, Gill and Cujo I graciously bow out from, but Gerber (waiver pick up originally), Kolzig (traded for draft picks) and Steen (I swear he was moved by Burke) I thought were Burke moves, even if it was over his transition from Anaheim where he was in charge.

I didn't mean to start a bad mouthing Burke rant with the players listed, but only to point out he did have some contracts and players he mishandled, and surrendered, in building a new team, and that one (probably more) of these touted Burke acquired players will be moved here for Luongo.

I don't want to think anyone thinks I'm trying to be a Leafs expert compared to the actual fans.

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11-17-2012, 02:58 PM
  #893
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Originally Posted by racerjoe View Post
everything you have said is a myth.

By the way thanks for responding to my other posts, you know the ones with "facts".
I'll respond to them, but there are so many things to respond to. What are they?

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11-17-2012, 02:59 PM
  #894
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
What's the point in making a proposal when someone will rebuttal with "no because x and y" when I'm trying to settle the "x" and "y" first?
Part of 'x' and 'y' is that we need to be a better team, and that means adding a forward, like Lupul or Kulemin, or worst case scenario a futures package that can be flipped for a forward.

So far many Leafs fans who are interested in acquiring Luongo feel that's fair. There's been quite a lot of overlap between individuals on either side on what they feel is fair.

There'd no need to come in and lambast Luongo when for the most part fans on both sides are finally finding middle ground.

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11-17-2012, 03:00 PM
  #895
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
Oh no, fair enough, Gerber, McCabe (traded for Van Ryn), Wellwood (put on waivers...as his contract was coming due) and I thought Tucker and O'Neill (who in fairness I believe was injured...again memory is a little shaky there) were Burke too. Looking back, why I have Tucker included there twice is baffling.

Belfour, Peca, Gill and Cujo I graciously bow out from, but Gerber (waiver pick up originally), Kolzig (traded for draft picks) and Steen (I swear he was moved by Burke) I thought were Burke moves, even if it was over his transition from Anaheim where he was in charge.

I didn't mean to start a bad mouthing Burke rant with the players listed, but only to point out he did have some contracts and players he mishandled, and surrendered, in building a new team, and that one (probably more) of these touted Burke acquired players will be moved here for Luongo.

I don't want to think anyone thinks I'm trying to be a Leafs expert compared to the actual fans.
No it's cool. Bold are Burke moves... and my memory is shaking on Wellwood.

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11-17-2012, 03:00 PM
  #896
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Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
Raymond, Malhotra and Ballard are all NHL quality players.
Who play very limited roles thanks to our depth.

How much will it cost to acquire

4th line LW?
4th line C?
3rd pairing LD?

The drop off between them and players like Jensen, Kconn and Schroeder can be masked by playing 2 elite goalies 82x.

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11-17-2012, 03:04 PM
  #897
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Vancouver has the third worst ranked prospect pool in the league. Who are these great replacement rookies that aren't already up with the big club?

Raymond, Malhotra and Ballard are all NHL quality players.
Schroeder was pretty much pencilled into this lineup prior to the season, we'd like to see what he can do with NHL talent on his wings. Malhotra replaced.

Canucks are hoping Nicklas Jensen can slot into the lineup, he is performing quite well in the SEL on a putrid team. He's probably not ready, but its an option. Raymond replaced.

The Canucks believe Kevin Connauton is ready to play meaningful games at the next level, I literally just read that from Nov. 12th issue of THN, Lawrence Gillman canucks assistant GM, said it. Ballard replaced.

Obviously that probably hurts the Canucks depth a bit, but those are moves that could be made while keeping the teams strength its strength.

We can all agree the situation isn't ideal, but suggesting Vancouver is anymore between a rock and a hard place than any team in the league when the cap/CBA changes is a silly notion.

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11-17-2012, 03:08 PM
  #898
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Part of 'x' and 'y' is that we need to be a better team, and that means adding a forward, like Lupul or Kulemin, or worst case scenario a futures package that can be flipped for a forward.

So far many Leafs fans who are interested in acquiring Luongo feel that's fair. There's been quite a lot of overlap between individuals on either side on what they feel is fair.

There'd no need to come in and lambast Luongo when for the most part fans on both sides are finally finding middle ground.
I don't see how I am lambasting Lu. And the X and Y's I'm talking about refer to what each teams options are, which directly effects the value of players on both sides. That's what I mean.

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11-17-2012, 03:08 PM
  #899
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
No it's cool. Bold are Burke moves... and my memory is shaking on Wellwood.
I was wrong on a few too, I sort of cobbled bigger name players I remember from about that time, so I know I missed a few. However, the spirit of my argument remains valid, which isn't really a ground shaking thesis: Burke has to move something from the team he's created, and something of value, to get Luongo.

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11-17-2012, 03:12 PM
  #900
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
I was wrong on a few too, I sort of cobbled bigger name players I remember from about that time, so I know I missed a few. However, the spirit of my argument remains valid, which isn't really a ground shaking thesis: Burke has to move something from the team he's created, and something of value, to get Luongo.
I agree with that but:

- Something of value is different to so many people.
- And if Luongo agrees to be traded to Toronto.
- And if [pending the lockout or goalie market] there are other quality goalies available at a lesser cost to Burke.

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