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Old
11-17-2012, 03:13 PM
  #901
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I don't see how I am lambasting Lu. And the X and Y's I'm talking about refer to what each teams options are, which directly effects the value of players on both sides. That's what I mean.
Perhaps that was a bit too harsh a term, but realistically there's not much reason to say Gillis is any more pressured to trade Luongo than Burke is to acquire him. Ideally both GMs should take a deal if it can solve both of their biggest problems, but I could see either saying now to value that is too far off the mark(ex. Bozak Frattin Gardiner 1st vs Kulemin Komisark 1st) Both offers were rumoured to have been refused(the first by Burke, the second by Gillis) so it's reasonable to assume the value is somewhere in between.

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11-17-2012, 03:13 PM
  #902
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How is that an improvement? It's the same team?

And Burrows maybe at 4.5m instead of 2m depending when hockey resumes. I appreciate posting numbers but that's essentially the same team dancing the top of the cap.

My point is contingent on the Canucks improving, which I thinkit's fair to assume Canuck fans think they need.
This is based on Capgeek, the same source you use.

If you want to "speculate" on what the next CBA will set the cap at then lets look at how the "make whole" provision will effect it.


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11-17-2012, 03:15 PM
  #903
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Slightly OT: How is Lupul at playing RW?

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11-17-2012, 03:15 PM
  #904
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
I agree with that but:

- Something of value is different to so many people.
- And if Luongo agrees to be traded to Toronto.
- And if [pending the lockout or goalie market] there are other quality goalies available at a lesser cost to Burke.
Why it isn't ground shaking.

I don't think Luongo will shoot a trade down to Toronto if he really wants to move on, but at the same time, there is the Florida factor as well...being closer to home could make the Leafs a less desirable destination.

As for the third, I'm not trying to inflate Lu's value by saying this, but I honestly don't think there will be much available. Kipper and Thomas are the only two "quality" tenders that could, maybe, possibly, be available. Again, the word quality means so much to so many people it's not really something we can universally quantify, but in my case, I mean it to be a top 20-30 or so goalie, a bonafide starter, not a 1-B.

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11-17-2012, 03:17 PM
  #905
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Perhaps that was a bit too harsh a term, but realistically there's not much reason to say Gillis is any more pressured to trade Luongo than Burke is to acquire him. Ideally both GMs should take a deal if it can solve both of their biggest problems, but I could see either saying now to value that is too far off the mark(ex. Bozak Frattin Gardiner 1st vs Kulemin Komisark 1st) Both offers were rumoured to have been refused(the first by Burke, the second by Gillis) so it's reasonable to assume the value is somewhere in between.
Can't help but disagree with that. For the many points I've already stated.

Granted if the season starts tomorrow I may be more inclined to believe that but if this whole year is a lockout them it changes things dramatically.

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11-17-2012, 03:20 PM
  #906
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This is based on the cap as set by the NHL/NHLPA.

If you want to "speculate" on what the next CBA will set the cap at then lets look at how the "make whole" provision will effect it.
Well based on the current cap situation, we agree that Vancouver can maintain their current roster but really can't improve outside of their addition of Garrison? Right?

And is it wrong to assume that the new CBA would at the very least decrease the overall cap by some margin? Within a year? That some UFA players may actually be RFA's? Or that the FA market would be wide open?

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11-17-2012, 03:22 PM
  #907
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
Can't help but disagree with that. For the many point I've already stated.

Granted if the season start tomorrow I may be more inclined to believe that but if this whole year is a lockout them it changes hings dramatically.
Next offseason that may be so, but this discussion is happening now.

By next offseason Bryzgalov might decide to stay in the KHL, or a starting goaltender might suffer a career ending injury, or guys like Holtby/Lindback/Bobrovsky might get lit up as first time starters.

I'm only interested in Luongo's value now, not at some arbitrary point in the future when any quantity of unknown variables might affect his value.

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11-17-2012, 03:22 PM
  #908
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Well based on the current cap situation, we agree that Vancouver can maintain their current roster but really can't improve outside of their addition of Garrison? Right?

And is it wrong to assume that the new CBA would at the very least decrease the overall cap by some margin? Within a year? That some UFA players may actually be RFA's? Or that the FA market would be wide open?
So assuming is a fact now... thanks but I am done.

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11-17-2012, 03:24 PM
  #909
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Why it isn't ground shaking.

I don't think Luongo will shoot a trade down to Toronto if he really wants to move on, but at the same time, there is the Florida factor as well...being closer to home could make the Leafs a less desirable destination.

As for the third, I'm not trying to inflate Lu's value by saying this, but I honestly don't think there will be much available. Kipper and Thomas are the only two "quality" tenders that could, maybe, possibly, be available. Again, the word quality means so much to so many people it's not really something we can universally quantify, but in my case, I mean it to be a top 20-30 or so goalie, a bonafide starter, not a 1-B.
That's fair but at the same token, couldn't Burke reduce some of the pressure to his team by signing a 1-B goalie and say significant upgrades in other areas?

I think Burke has multiple options especially if the lockout continues.

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11-17-2012, 03:25 PM
  #910
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That's fair but at the same token, couldn't Burke reduce some of the pressure to his team by signing a 1-B goalie and say significant upgrades in other areas?

I think Burke has multiple options especially if the lockout continues.
What other options? There was Vokoun, but we know where he went....

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11-17-2012, 03:26 PM
  #911
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So assuming is a fact now... thanks but I am done.
What are you so angry about? I never said that the cap will be 60M in a years time no question. I speculated that BUT I validated that speculation.

Even under the current cap of 70M everyone agrees that Vancouver cannot improve outside of Garrison due to cap constrictions.

I think I have made many valid points, so why are you angry?

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11-17-2012, 03:27 PM
  #912
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What other options? There was Vokoun, but we know where he went....
#2. Goalie Market and future UFA’s. If this season is played as a shortened season, then it is possible that there are other goalies on the market to tandem with Reimer. It is hard to know but a package could be made and not set the Leafs back. It may be more of a risk but Brian Burke is known for taking risks. If the lockout goes all season, then the following goalies will potentially be UFA’s for Burke to target: Niklas Backstrom, Tim Thomas, Nikolai Khabibulin, Evgeni Nabokov, Jimmy Howard, Mike Smith, Jose Theodore, Ray Emery, etc.

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11-17-2012, 03:28 PM
  #913
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Well based on the current cap situation, we agree that Vancouver can maintain their current roster but really can't improve outside of their addition of Garrison? Right?

And is it wrong to assume that the new CBA would at the very least decrease the overall cap by some margin? Within a year? That some UFA players may actually be RFA's? Or that the FA market would be wide open?
Perhaps, but that doesn't hurt teams with Luongo any more then...Franzen, Zetterberg, Kovalchuk, Hossa and other long term contracts.

As for the Canucks, we have two, possibly three, "non-essential" contracts who we can move instead of moving Luongo for a lesser package. By "non-essential" I mean they would have less of an impact, for the cap hit, then Luongo would, even as a 1-B or 30 start back up.

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11-17-2012, 03:28 PM
  #914
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Some of you are in denial. It continues to amaze me how determined some of you are to convince yourselves that Luongo will get max value. Asking for a trade, his contract , his age and all the other factors do not hurt his value.

No one could name an example of a player asking to be traded who wasn't, but some how Vancouver is special and this won't affect them at all.

Keeping him is an option because having a player in your locker room who doesn't want to be there can in no way hurt your team.

Yet despite all this a good number of your fan base have lowered their expectations. Your own GM has said " The trade does not have to make us better, it has to make us different " which basically means we have to get something for him.

I'm not saying he is coming to Torornto, nor will I claim to know what his value is, but I do believe based on overwelming evidence and history he will be traded, he will not be waived, and he will not get you as much as Nash got CBJ.

I hope for Vancouvers sake that a team like Chicago is in play which would increase the options but really the circumstances make for a small group that would give up anything substantial. Really trading him to any team you see often seems undesirable, Chicago chief among them based on the recent rivalry.

It has been reported that a discussion between Toronto and Vancouver centered around Bozak. Your own roster depth limits the number of players you can get back. Over and over we hear " how does this help us ? " when the reality is your GM is simply trying to salvage what he can from the situation.

Logic suggests he will move Luongo before training camp or he will ask him to stay home until a deal will be worked out so as not to be a distraction to the team. This is not a slight on Luongo but having the media asking Luongo trade questions when the season starts will be disruptive.

It seems many is this discussion forget these are real people involved , that there are pressures pushing a resolution, that every interested GM is aware of this and will use it to their advantage. I suggest some of you lower your expectations and you may be pleasantly surprised, failing that at least you will suffer less disappointment if the deal is indeed Bozak, a prospect and a pick.

The statement "He is under contract" seems like little more than a desperate attempt to ignore all the factors in play . Luongo is a great goalie, better than Schnieder in my opinion and he will help any team who gets him for several years after the trade, but to ignore all the other factors that will hinder the return on him is just folly.
There is no gun to Gillis' head. No artificial timeline.

Lou has a long term deal in place and is obligated to honor it or not get paid...that is a irrefutable fact.

Luongo has already stated he will be a good soldier

Lou has a lot more to lose than the team by not playing along

If the canucks can be a better team by trading schneider than lou I have no doubt they will consider it

There are teams with major question marks in goal that may emerge into the next season

Burke does have a gun to his head with arguably the worst goalies in the nhl. He is well into the rebuild and under pressure that Gillis is simply not facing.

Every day that gillis waits is another day he gets to keep the best tandem in the league in place. A tandem that won btb pt's.

All signs point to Gillis being in the driver's seat with a nice problem to have that a younger goalie may have surpassed the best goalie in team history while said goalie is still in his prime.

I see no need for a panic moves. If they gt good value they will move Lou. If not they will wait.

Seems pretty damn obvious to me.

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11-17-2012, 03:28 PM
  #915
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Perhaps that was a bit too harsh a term, but realistically there's not much reason to say Gillis is any more pressured to trade Luongo than Burke is to acquire him. Ideally both GMs should take a deal if it can solve both of their biggest problems, but I could see either saying now to value that is too far off the mark(ex. Bozak Frattin Gardiner 1st vs Kulemin Komisark 1st) Both offers were rumoured to have been refused(the first by Burke, the second by Gillis) so it's reasonable to assume the value is somewhere in between.
The first rumour involving Bozak I can trace back to the following Cox article:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/...st-not-yet-cox

With the most interesting piece of the article being it's believed Vancouver believes Bozak would be an ideal 3rd line center.

Do you have a source for the 2nd rumour?

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11-17-2012, 03:29 PM
  #916
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#2. Goalie Market and future UFA’s. If this season is played as a shortened season, then it is possible that there are other goalies on the market to tandem with Reimer. It is hard to know but a package could be made and not set the Leafs back. It may be more of a risk but Brian Burke is known for taking risks. If the lockout goes all season, then the following goalies will potentially be UFA’s for Burke to target: Niklas Backstrom, Tim Thomas, Nikolai Khabibulin, Evgeni Nabokov, Jimmy Howard, Mike Smith, Jose Theodore, Ray Emery, etc.
But you first they there are other options, but then admit it is hard to say. This means you are just making things up, no? We are talking about now that Burke still has a contract, not next year when who knows if he will still be around. If you say things you need ideas/sources to back them up.

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11-17-2012, 03:31 PM
  #917
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There is no gun to Gillis' head. No artificial timeline.

Lou has a long term deal in place and is obligated to honor it or not get paid...that is a irrefutable fact.

Luongo has already stated he will be a good soldier

Lou has a lot more to lose than the team by not playing along

If the canucks can be a better team by trading schneider than lou I have no doubt they will consider it

There are teams with major question marks in goal that may emerge into the next season

Burke does have a gun to his head with arguably the worst goalies in the nhl. He is well into the rebuild and under pressure that Gillis is simply not facing.

Every day that gillis waits is another day he gets to keep the best tandem in the league in place. A tandem that won btb pt's.

All signs point to Gillis being in the driver's seat with a nice problem to have that a younger goalie may have surpassed the best goalie in team history while said goalie is still in his prime.

I see no need for a panic moves. If they gt good value they will move Lou. If not they will wait.

Seems pretty damn obvious to me.
I doubt that lasts.

Luongo has been the go to guy at every level. I really can't see him just accepting being a 1B or a # 2.

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11-17-2012, 03:32 PM
  #918
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Next offseason that may be so, but this discussion is happening now.

By next offseason Bryzgalov might decide to stay in the KHL, or a starting goaltender might suffer a career ending injury, or guys like Holtby/Lindback/Bobrovsky might get lit up as first time starters.
I don't understand. A trade cannot happen now and it won't happen until the next season/off season begins under new circumstances that we can make fairly solid educated guesses about. So you have to look at what might happen.

And I indicated in my original post that holding onto Luongo to increase his value might work for Gillis but the chances are highly stacked against him.

Unless you can provide a good example why multiple starting goalies may be injured, or Bryz staying in the KHL, etc.

They all could happen but it's unlikely.

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11-17-2012, 03:33 PM
  #919
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#2. Goalie Market and future UFA’s. If this season is played as a shortened season, then it is possible that there are other goalies on the market to tandem with Reimer. It is hard to know but a package could be made and not set the Leafs back. It may be more of a risk but Brian Burke is known for taking risks. If the lockout goes all season, then the following goalies will potentially be UFA’s for Burke to target: Niklas Backstrom, Tim Thomas, Nikolai Khabibulin, Evgeni Nabokov, Jimmy Howard, Mike Smith, Jose Theodore, Ray Emery, etc.
At the end of this game of goalie musical chairs there will still be teams left without a starter. If by some miracle Burke lands Howard, then Detroit becomes a potential suitor, etc.

Not to mention guys like Khabibulin, Emery are marginal upgrades at best. Theodore has said he plans on retiring in Florida. And Thomas likely may never play hockey again, and it would be foolhardy to gamble on him coming back.

Not to mention teams like San Jose or Chicago will also be active in the goalie market, and they'd be a lot more appealing than Toronto as potential goalie destinations.

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11-17-2012, 03:38 PM
  #920
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But you first they there are other options, but then admit it is hard to say. This means you are just making things up, no? We are talking about now that Burke still has a contract, not next year when who knows if he will still be around. If you say things you need ideas/sources to back them up.
No I'm saying that there are other options [goalies] available to Burke that are not reported in the media. Players are consistently open to being traded without a newspaper writing an article about it.

And IF the lockout is all year then there are likely to be a lot of UFA goalies available which I have stated.

Furthermore, next year will be the next season unless by some miracle this season is saved. Even then, a shortened season makes dealing and picks of significance much more difficult.

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11-17-2012, 03:38 PM
  #921
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I don't understand. A trade cannot happen now and it won't happen until the next season/off season begins under new circumstances that we can make fairly solid educated guesses about. So you have to look at what might happen.

And I indicated in my original post that holding onto Luongo to increase his value might work for Gillis but the chances are highly stacked against him.

Unless you can provide a good example why multiple starting goalies may be injured, or Bryz staying in the KHL, etc.

They all could happen but it's unlikely.
Why do you assume it will be a full-season lockout? If it's a full season lockout than Lupul, Bozak, Macarthur, etc all have zero value.

All I'm saying is that with the CBA uncertainty and the amount of possibilities that could change Luongo's desirability drastically, the best we can do, as fans, is speculate on a deal that helps improve both teams' on-ice performance.

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11-17-2012, 03:39 PM
  #922
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I doubt that lasts.

Luongo has been the go to guy at every level. I really can't see him just accepting being a 1B or a # 2.
Hence the time limit to make such a move.

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11-17-2012, 03:40 PM
  #923
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Just trying to dispel some myths in this thread(s).

Reasons WHY Brian Burke is NOT under pressure to trade for Roberto Luongo, while we all know he is interested. (just because most conversation is about Leafs acquiring Luongo).

#1. Kessel, Phaneuf, & Lupul will walk for nothing if team keeps missing the postseason. What is important to remember is that all these players will be approached about extensions a year prior to or during the season and if they do not want to resign then all can be moved for significant assets (decide for yourself). Lupul can be traded without restriction. Phaneuf can be traded without restriction, although being team captain his movement is least likely. Kessel can be moved but his limitation is unknown. However, if the new CBA changes RFA status up one more year, Kessel will not be a UFA, rather and RFA and cannot walk. Either way, the likelihood of them walking and leaving the Leafs in a whole is extremely low and close to impossible.

#2. Goalie Market and future UFA’s. If this season is played as a shortened season, then it is possible that there are other goalies on the market to tandem with Reimer. It is hard to know but a package could be made and not set the Leafs back. It may be more of a risk but Brian Burke is known for taking risks. If the lockout goes all season, then the following goalies will potentially be UFA’s for Burke to target: Niklas Backstrom, Tim Thomas, Nikolai Khabibulin, Evgeni Nabokov, Jimmy Howard, Mike Smith, Jose Theodore, Ray Emery, etc.

#3. Burke Needs Luongo to save his job. Speculative at best. Refer to reasons #1 and #2. It's up to Luongo if he wants to come to Toronto, perhaps Florida. Really the decision is not in Brian's hand to make. All he can do is make the best offer he is comfortable with, and Gillis will judge based on ultimately what few offers he gets outlined by Luongo's contractual limitation (5 team trade list.)
Sums up every one of your posts. I can see that my mock-post got it's point across.

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11-17-2012, 03:40 PM
  #924
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The first rumour involving Bozak I can trace back to the following Cox article:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/...st-not-yet-cox

With the most interesting piece of the article being it's believed Vancouver believes Bozak would be an ideal 3rd line center.

Do you have a source for the 2nd rumour?
To be honest, I do not, but I have heard it thrown around by fans of both sides, so I assume it must come from somewhere. Although there is also a rumour of Luke Schenn 1 for 1 that happened at the draft, which I believe has been more widely circulated.

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11-17-2012, 03:42 PM
  #925
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No I'm saying that there are other options [goalies] available to Burke that are not reported in the media. Players are consistently open to being traded without a newspaper writing an article about it.

And IF the lockout is all year then there are likely to be a lot of UFA goalies available which I have stated.

Furthermore, next year will be the next season unless by some miracle this season is saved. Even then, a shortened season makes dealing and picks of significance much more difficult.
I disagree that there are quality goalies open to Burke. And since you have no examples in mind then you cannot dispute this. The bottom line is Burke has this last year left on his contract. There is currently one very good goalie available. Burke has one of two options: trade for Luongo or live and die by Reimer/Scrivens. Also keep in mind Scriven can barely hold on to his starting job in AHL this year. Does not look like a guy who could effectively backup in the NHL currently.

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