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The Official Arena Thread Part 6

View Poll Results: On what day will city council vote to finalize a new arena for Edmonton's downtown?
Between now and Christmas 2012 8 7.41%
Between New Year's Day and the end of February 2013 30 27.78%
Between March and July, 2013 16 14.81%
Before the October 2013 civic election 14 12.96%
Not until 2014 4 3.70%
Not until 2015 3 2.78%
Not until 2016 1 0.93%
Not until 2017 6 5.56%
Never 26 24.07%
Voters: 108. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-16-2012, 08:56 PM
  #276
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Originally Posted by Lacaar View Post
My guess is the city asks Katz for the plans and builds a scaled down version for about $350 million.

I think there's something strange or unknown going on with the Katz group. I heard rumor/whisper his lead lawyer just quit.
They dont have to ask, they've paid for the plans, they own them.

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11-16-2012, 11:46 PM
  #277
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Source Article/Blog


Found this very interesting in regards to Katz and his arena, and the way the people of Edmonton view him as snake in the grass. There has been much discussion as to why Katz needs a new arena for long term sustainability of the Oilers, and due partly to much of the economics of the NHL changing at a rate that has a lot of teams including Edmonton lagging behind in the near future. Much of those teams have the benefit of being in a large market, while Edmonton has all but reached its peak in profitability from a hockey revenue only standpoint. While it's debatable how much more can be squeezed out of the Edmonton fans moving into the future, what's not is the very real economics of the Oilers and their new arena.

KevFu over on the business boards unwittingly explained exactly why a city-funded arena that reaps all extra revenue from events would leave Edmonton in a hurting position 5-10 years from now:
Fail. How can any intelligent person compare the situation of the Florida Panthers to the Oilers?

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11-17-2012, 12:52 AM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Puckschmuck View Post
Fail. How can any intelligent person compare the situation of the Florida Panthers to the Oilers?
Because an intelligent person would be able to identify the similarities between the two, considering the future of the Oilers may hinge on Katz ability to strike a very similar deal as to what the Panthers have.

Oh wait. You're in that camp that believes the Oilers are one of the most profitable organizations in the league, right? That we're a model of efficiency?

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11-17-2012, 01:45 AM
  #279
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Because an intelligent person would be able to identify the similarities between the two, considering the future of the Oilers may hinge on Katz ability to strike a very similar deal as to what the Panthers have.

Oh wait. You're in that camp that believes the Oilers are one of the most profitable organizations in the league, right? That we're a model of efficiency?
If you're going by the Forbes list, which is pretty much the only data out since teams don't release financials, the Oilers are the 4th most profitable team.

They aren't even in the top 10 in value or revenue, but they have a lot lower costs than most other places and sell out every night.

It's very difficult to be sustainable longterm without profiting for revenues on non game nights, but it's pretty clear this team is currently doing it well enough that its not a matter of success or failure if it happens immediately.

Compared to the other owners Katz has it pretty bad, but he needs to realize the city isn't going to cater to his every demand while giving him the best possible deal.

Katz was getting a good deal before he asked for another 6 mill a year and took trips to Seattle for fun. Now the guy just comes off as a ******.

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11-17-2012, 10:06 AM
  #280
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Because an intelligent person would be able to identify the similarities between the two, considering the future of the Oilers may hinge on Katz ability to strike a very similar deal as to what the Panthers have.

Oh wait. You're in that camp that believes the Oilers are one of the most profitable organizations in the league, right? That we're a model of efficiency?
Are you actually trying to suggest the 2 situations are remotely comparable?

About the only similarity is they both play in indoor arenas

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11-17-2012, 02:07 PM
  #281
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Are you actually trying to suggest the 2 situations are remotely comparable?

About the only similarity is they both play in indoor arenas
I'd love for you to explain why you believe the two are different in the context I presented them in.

Have at 'er.

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11-17-2012, 02:18 PM
  #282
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I'd love for you to explain why you believe the two are different in the context I presented them in.

Have at 'er.
If you want anyone to take you seriously, maybe you should explain the relevance of comparing a pro hockey franchise in Miami Florida to one in Canada.

A small market in the northernmost city nonetheless.

Have at 'er.

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11-17-2012, 02:29 PM
  #283
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I'd love for you to explain why you believe the two are different in the context I presented them in.

Have at 'er.
Well, lets see. Edmonton and northern Alberta sitting on a pool of Oil. Edmonton rabid hockey market, perennial sell outs for las god knows how long despite horrific teams. Charges tons for tickets.
I couldnt imagine 2 more different markets.

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11-17-2012, 03:30 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Because an intelligent person would be able to identify the similarities between the two, considering the future of the Oilers may hinge on Katz ability to strike a very similar deal as to what the Panthers have.

Oh wait. You're in that camp that believes the Oilers are one of the most profitable organizations in the league, right? That we're a model of efficiency?
Man, you are so dramatic. The Oilers are NOT in any serious financial threat. There has been zero evidence of this. You are just spreading Katz propeganda as usual. Creating panic by crying wolf.

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11-17-2012, 03:38 PM
  #285
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I am in the states. Can someone tell me one way or another are the Oilers in serious danger of moving?

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11-17-2012, 03:44 PM
  #286
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I am in the states. Can someone tell me one way or another are the Oilers in serious danger of moving?
When your owner is Charles Wang crazy, anything is possible.

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Old
11-17-2012, 04:30 PM
  #287
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Have you not paid attention to anything that has gone on in regards to Northlands over the last 4 years? Because then it would at least make sense as to why you're such a flag waver of theirs.
Hello. Anybody home?

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11-18-2012, 01:21 PM
  #288
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Well, lets see. Edmonton and northern Alberta sitting on a pool of Oil. Edmonton rabid hockey market, perennial sell outs for las god knows how long despite horrific teams. Charges tons for tickets.
I couldnt imagine 2 more different markets.


So Alberta has some oil, and that's how you differentiate the two teams in regards to their arena arrangement and the fact that despite the Panthers itself losing money, the ownership makes up for that with the profits from outside revenue from the arena? And you see no correlation between the Oilers and the Panthers?

You really have not paid attention or bothered to read any of the information I've posted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puckschmuck View Post
Man, you are so dramatic. The Oilers are NOT in any serious financial threat. There has been zero evidence of this. You are just spreading Katz propeganda as usual. Creating panic by crying wolf.
At what payroll point would the Oilers begin to lose significant money? $70M? $80M? Considering Edmonton is a small market and is fully penetrated, I'm wondering how you think the Oilers are going to be able to compete in this market without additional revenue, considering they were fielding ~$22M teams until the 05 lockout artificially made this market viable and we got an owner who was willing to spend.

Looking ahead and analyzing is not "crying wolf", it's called foresight.

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11-18-2012, 01:42 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Have you not paid attention to anything that has gone on in regards to Northlands over the last 4 years? Because then it would at least make sense as to why you're such a flag waver of theirs.
Just to note you come off in this sounding like you're Katz curly haired son so I don't know I'd be stating this particular angle.

I can tell you it isn't convincing in the slightest.

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11-18-2012, 01:47 PM
  #290
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So Alberta has some oil, and that's how you differentiate the two teams in regards to their arena arrangement and the fact that despite the Panthers itself losing money, the ownership makes up for that with the profits from outside revenue from the arena? And you see no correlation between the Oilers and the Panthers?
He made some other points that you conveniently ignored. How much do the Panthers charge for tickets as opposed to the Oilers?

How is Florida's economy compared to Edmonton's/Alberta's?

A bigger contrast would be hard to find when comparing Panthers vs Oilers, Florida vs Alberta. The only thing more ridiculous than trying to compare the two would be continuing this charade like you are doing.

Quote:
You really have not paid attention or bothered to read any of the information I've posted.
Probably because it is not worth paying even the smallest bit of attention to.

Quote:
At what payroll point would the Oilers begin to lose significant money? $70M? $80M? Considering Edmonton is a small market and is fully penetrated, I'm wondering how you think the Oilers are going to be able to compete in this market without additional revenue, considering they were fielding ~$22M teams until the 05 lockout artificially made this market viable and we got an owner who was willing to spend.
And yet despite all this noted billionaire and business tycoon Daryl Katz actively pursued purchasing the team, despite it not being for sale.

Quote:
Looking ahead and analyzing is not "crying wolf", it's called foresight.
I prefer baseless nonsense myself.

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11-18-2012, 02:30 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post


So Alberta has some oil, and that's how you differentiate the two teams in regards to their arena arrangement and the fact that despite the Panthers itself losing money, the ownership makes up for that with the profits from outside revenue from the arena? And you see no correlation between the Oilers and the Panthers?

You really have not paid attention or bothered to read any of the information I've posted.



At what payroll point would the Oilers begin to lose significant money? $70M? $80M? Considering Edmonton is a small market and is fully penetrated, I'm wondering how you think the Oilers are going to be able to compete in this market without additional revenue, considering they were fielding ~$22M teams until the 05 lockout artificially made this market viable and we got an owner who was willing to spend.

Looking ahead and analyzing is not "crying wolf", it's called foresight.
As I thought.
You got nuthin

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11-18-2012, 04:25 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Because an intelligent person would be able to identify the similarities between the two, considering the future of the Oilers may hinge on Katz ability to strike a very similar deal as to what the Panthers have.

Oh wait. You're in that camp that believes the Oilers are one of the most profitable organizations in the league, right? That we're a model of efficiency?
If we are as viable as the Panthers then Katz may as well close up shop and be done with it. The Oilers have room to grow revenue with playoff appearances for one thing. For two even if they only keep the gate from a new arena that will mean roughly 1500-2000 new revenue generating seats for 41 guaranteed games. That can't hurt. Even if we aren't the model for profitability we are far from mirroring sun belt teams. If the financial model is that much in trouble Katz should sell the team for a loss and wash his hands of this money pit.

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11-18-2012, 05:16 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
At what payroll point would the Oilers begin to lose significant money? $70M? $80M? Considering Edmonton is a small market and is fully penetrated, I'm wondering how you think the Oilers are going to be able to compete in this market without additional revenue, considering they were fielding ~$22M teams until the 05 lockout artificially made this market viable and we got an owner who was willing to spend.

Looking ahead and analyzing is not "crying wolf", it's called foresight.
How can you "look ahead" at anything accurately when you have no evidence that the Oilers are in financial termoil, as you claim? Again, you have no evidence to help prop up your argument, and therefore all your claims are nothing more than "crying wolf" indeed, and it appears that most people aren't buying what you are selling.

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11-18-2012, 06:18 PM
  #294
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He made some other points that you conveniently ignored. How much do the Panthers charge for tickets as opposed to the Oilers?

How is Florida's economy compared to Edmonton's/Alberta's?

A bigger contrast would be hard to find when comparing Panthers vs Oilers, Florida vs Alberta. The only thing more ridiculous than trying to compare the two would be continuing this charade like you are doing.



Probably because it is not worth paying even the smallest bit of attention to.



And yet despite all this noted billionaire and business tycoon Daryl Katz actively pursued purchasing the team, despite it not being for sale.



I prefer baseless nonsense myself.
You are completely missing the point. It's not about the Panther's ticket prices nor their economy. It's about the fact that the Panther's have access to revenue that is generated outside of NHL revenue that makes them viable. Something the Oilers will definitely be needing to remain viable in Edmonton.

Like I said, you and that other guy obviously didn't bother to read.

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11-18-2012, 06:25 PM
  #295
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You are completely missing the point. It's not about the Panther's ticket prices nor their economy. It's about the fact that the Panther's have access to revenue that is generated outside of NHL revenue that makes them viable. Something the Oilers will definitely be needing to remain viable in Edmonton.

Like I said, you and that other guy obviously didn't bother to read.
Yeah, they do, as do many other teams.Which the Oilers will be getting too under the agreement Katz keeps on reneging on,
But even without that, the Oilers make a ton of money. And there is a salary cap.So no matter how you slice it, the Oilers franchise is very profitable, with or without ancillary revenues.Ancillary revenues are certainly not needed to make the Oilers franchise extremely viable, but unfortunately the City has gone down that path. without the
But are the pom poms you waive for Katz making you unable to see that?

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11-18-2012, 06:27 PM
  #296
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If we are as viable as the Panthers then Katz may as well close up shop and be done with it. The Oilers have room to grow revenue with playoff appearances for one thing. For two even if they only keep the gate from a new arena that will mean roughly 1500-2000 new revenue generating seats for 41 guaranteed games. That can't hurt. Even if we aren't the model for profitability we are far from mirroring sun belt teams. If the financial model is that much in trouble Katz should sell the team for a loss and wash his hands of this money pit.


You mean the ~$1-2M per playoff game? We're going to start banking on that now? No business person in their right mind would ever bank on playoff revenue so you can scrap that.

This has nothing to do with the sunbelt teams or their marketability and viability. It does, however, have everything to do with the way their ownership have access to revenue generated from outside sources (Arena events) that has enabled them to operate at their ~$7M loss for so long. Keeping the Panthers in Florida legitimizes the arena as a key destination for many events and without the Panthers that venue would cease to be an attractive option.

Now consider that Katz is planning to keep the Oilers viable using the same system and we come full circle back to my original post. Some people are so far off base from my original point that it's almost embarrassing.

It really doesn't surprise me that much, though. I think this is the same band of rabblers that refuse to fully understand the Katz Arena proposal and instead pick and choose what to believe.

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11-18-2012, 06:33 PM
  #297
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You mean the ~$1-2M per playoff game? We're going to start banking on that now? No business person in their right mind would ever bank on playoff revenue so you can scrap that.

This has nothing to do with the sunbelt teams or their marketability and viability. It does, however, have everything to do with the way their ownership have access to revenue generated from outside sources (Arena events) that has enabled them to operate at their ~$7M loss for so long. Keeping the Panthers in Florida legitimizes the arena as a key destination for many events and without the Panthers that venue would cease to be an attractive option.

Now consider that Katz is planning to keep the Oilers viable using the same system and we come full circle back to my original post. Some people are so far off base from my original point that it's almost embarrassing.

It really doesn't surprise me that much, though. I think this is the same band of rabblers that refuse to fully understand the Katz Arena proposal and instead pick and choose what to believe.
The bolded is laughable. Its so funny its beyond description. It doesnt even make sense.

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11-18-2012, 09:06 PM
  #298
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You are completely missing the point. It's not about the Panther's ticket prices nor their economy. It's about the fact that the Panther's have access to revenue that is generated outside of NHL revenue that makes them viable. Something the Oilers will definitely be needing to remain viable in Edmonton.

Like I said, you and that other guy obviously didn't bother to read.
Katz had a deal where he would be getting non nhl revenue from the building. That wasnt good enough for him apparently.

You asked what sets Florida apart from Edmonton. Some of us have pointed out just a few things. Then you use that as "evidence" that we "didnt bother to read" your post.

At this point I have to assume you are trolling.

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11-18-2012, 10:44 PM
  #299
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Let's tone down the bickering a bit, ok?

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11-18-2012, 10:51 PM
  #300
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Katz had a deal where he would be getting non nhl revenue from the building. That wasnt good enough for him apparently.

You asked what sets Florida apart from Edmonton. Some of us have pointed out just a few things. Then you use that as "evidence" that we "didnt bother to read" your post.

At this point I have to assume you are trolling.
Because what you've pointed out has absolutely zero to do with what I'm talking about.

Katz' had no deal. Katz had a framework for initial financing worked out for his arena. Where do you get this idea that there was a deal in place? Katz had to go back and rework the figures because the initial framework was like an entire year stale. City council sat on their butts and basically did nothing while costs and construction changed, as these things do.

Now you're telling me they're going to just build it themselves and hand all that revenue over to Katz anyway? Then what's the freakin' point??

To spite him? It would make sense. Edmonton likes to run their millionaires/billionaires outta town.

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