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Old
11-16-2012, 05:55 PM
  #601
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Well, he's not entirely wrong. Bettman is an idiot. He does exaggerate though, Bettman didn't do all wrong.
Bettman is in part responsible for the success of the NHL branding in the past 10-15 years which is a direct factor in the increase of revenues and attention in the U.S. Something that was almost inexistent before. So yes, White is completely wrong and out of line here.

Also these lines:

Quote:
Commissioner Gary Bettman has suggested placing a two-week moratorium on stalled collective bargaining negotiations, multiple sources told The Canadian Press on Thursday night. The offer came after Bettman received a phone call from Donald Fehr on Wednesday in which the NHLPA executive director said he didn't know how the sides could proceed from their current stalemate.
From this source: http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-l...n_ever_at_cba/

Seem to suggest that no Bettman isn't just being an idiot here, or a big bad troll. Players sidelining the negotiations by shooting canon balls at Bettman, someone who doesn't own any team is just getting tired and is not helping anything other than tarnishing their own image.

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11-16-2012, 06:08 PM
  #602
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Originally Posted by vokiel View Post
Bettman is in part responsible for the success of the NHL branding in the past 10-15 years which is a direct factor in the increase of revenues and attention in the U.S. Something that was almost inexistent before. So yes, White is completely wrong and out of line here.

Also these lines:



From this source: http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-l...n_ever_at_cba/

Seem to suggest that no Bettman isn't just being an idiot here, or a big bad troll. Players sidelining the negotiations by shooting canon balls at Bettman, someone who doesn't own any team is just getting tired and is not helping anything other than tarnishing their own image.
You're doing the opposite of White.

Bettman is a moron, so is the NHLPA.

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Old
11-16-2012, 06:22 PM
  #603
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You're doing the opposite of White.

Bettman is a moron, so is the NHLPA.
The opposite of White? Not sure I follow. It's not by criticizing the players' attitude in their auto-destructive stance that one is necessarily defending ownership and their representation at all cost. They're the ones that submitted a dumb redneck first offer in the first place after all... Right now however the worst is coming from the PA.

How about this: You want mediation? Remove all partial parties from the negotiation table and shut them up. Players & Owners alike, only then will you have true mediation.

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11-16-2012, 06:48 PM
  #604
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Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger
Candor and strong opinion are always welcome, however, Ian White calling Gary Bettman an "idiot" is disrespectful and requires an apology.

Brandon Prust ‏@BrandonPrust8
@DarrenDreger what gary bettman is doing is disrespectful n deserves n apology

Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger
@BrandonPrust8. Would you call your owner an idiot? Of course not, however Bettman works for the owners. I get emotion....not disrespect.

Brandon Prust ‏@BrandonPrust8
@DarrenDreger never.. But that guy in Boston.. Yes.. Ya I got emotion too. It's called anger cause I'm not playing hockey

Brandon Prust ‏@BrandonPrust8
@DarrenDreger not playing in front of 21000 screamin habs fans.. just goin nuts over an ot win on hockey night in Canada! #wantthatfeeling

Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger
@BrandonPrust8. You should be angry. Negotiation is a mess, but NHL players have a history of being respectful.

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Old
11-16-2012, 06:53 PM
  #605
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Well, that's for you only. You can't be oblivious to the fact the NHL would lose a lot of viewership if replacement players came around. There's no question about this.
There's only a little minority that might still follow the sport as much as they did with regular NHLers, even in big markets. Heck, even some strong habs fans that take time to post here regularly during a lockout wouldn't tune it all that much, me included.
It's not so much about caring about the Habs and not the names, it's about expecting NHL talent when watching games. If it's not NHL talent, I simply have other things I'd rather do.
I would totally have expected that a lot of casual fans would be lost (at least at first). I guess I just figured that people who took the time to post in a place like this, and for many, post quite prolifically, would feel more like I did. I know now that I was wrong about that. But it just surprised me, that's all. No judgement, just a personal observation.

But in conjunction with that, I also felt (and still feel) that a lot of people don't realize just how good players outside the NHL are, how narrow the margins are, and I don't think most fans would truly be able to tell the difference between a replacement player league and the NHL. I mean, you can't do a totally blind taste test, because of course the consumer/viewer *is* going to know that it's not the NHL players. But I just think the entertainment product would be just as good - or could be made just as good - such that if it really was given a "fair chance" (which is not possible in practise) people would be able to get into it and enjoy it just as much as the NHL. This is basically what happens over longer timescales anyway as player abilities change/evolve.

Again, all hypothetical fantasy talk, though. It ain't gonna happen.

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Old
11-16-2012, 07:04 PM
  #606
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Originally Posted by vokiel View Post
The opposite of White? Not sure I follow. It's not by criticizing the players' attitude in their auto-destructive stance that one is necessarily defending ownership and their representation at all cost. They're the ones that submitted a dumb redneck first offer in the first place after all... Right now however the worst is coming from the PA.

How about this: You want mediation? Remove all partial parties from the negotiation table and shut them up. Players & Owners alike, only then will you have true mediation.
Doing the opposite of White in the sense that it seemed Bettman did only good things.
But it's irrelevant anyways. Both sides have handled this poorly.

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Old
11-16-2012, 09:43 PM
  #607
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Id like the player to start talking about a revenue sharing system too, like they proposed the owners should do. Sid gives a % of his money to Joe Vitale, etc.
The players already have indirect revenue sharing mechanisms in place.
- pensions and health insurance are far more equitable
- per diems are more equitable, I suspect they're equal
- minimum salaries are enforced, and are a form of revenue sharing among players

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11-16-2012, 09:48 PM
  #608
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I would totally have expected that a lot of casual fans would be lost (at least at first). I guess I just figured that people who took the time to post in a place like this, and for many, post quite prolifically, would feel more like I did. I know now that I was wrong about that. But it just surprised me, that's all. No judgement, just a personal observation.

But in conjunction with that, I also felt (and still feel) that a lot of people don't realize just how good players outside the NHL are, how narrow the margins are, and I don't think most fans would truly be able to tell the difference between a replacement player league and the NHL. I mean, you can't do a totally blind taste test, because of course the consumer/viewer *is* going to know that it's not the NHL players. But I just think the entertainment product would be just as good - or could be made just as good - such that if it really was given a "fair chance" (which is not possible in practise) people would be able to get into it and enjoy it just as much as the NHL. This is basically what happens over longer timescales anyway as player abilities change/evolve.

Again, all hypothetical fantasy talk, though. It ain't gonna happen.
If you removed Roger Federer, Raphael Nadal, Novak Djokovic, Andy Murray and the top 150 players from tennis, would you go cheer for the new dynasty of player #151 who would become #1, on the basis that the margin between him and Djokovic was narrow anyway, and that the entertainment product is just as good?

Don't kid yourself, talent level is very noticeable in games. It's easy to see the difference between the Canada-USA gold medal game in Vancouver, or the LA-NJ Stanley Cup Final series, versus that of the Habs in late 2011-2012.

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Old
11-16-2012, 09:59 PM
  #609
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Doing the opposite of White in the sense that it seemed Bettman did only good things.
But it's irrelevant anyways. Both sides have handled this poorly.
Agreed.

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Old
11-17-2012, 12:29 AM
  #610
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I would totally have expected that a lot of casual fans would be lost (at least at first). I guess I just figured that people who took the time to post in a place like this, and for many, post quite prolifically, would feel more like I did. I know now that I was wrong about that. But it just surprised me, that's all. No judgement, just a personal observation.

But in conjunction with that, I also felt (and still feel) that a lot of people don't realize just how good players outside the NHL are, how narrow the margins are, and I don't think most fans would truly be able to tell the difference between a replacement player league and the NHL. I mean, you can't do a totally blind taste test, because of course the consumer/viewer *is* going to know that it's not the NHL players. But I just think the entertainment product would be just as good - or could be made just as good - such that if it really was given a "fair chance" (which is not possible in practise) people would be able to get into it and enjoy it just as much as the NHL. This is basically what happens over longer timescales anyway as player abilities change/evolve.

Again, all hypothetical fantasy talk, though. It ain't gonna happen.
Listen, I can watch players play hockey in a beer league and still find it entertaining.
Watching them 3-4 times a week however, would bore me.
Now, I'm not saying replacement players would be of beer league caliber, but you get the idea.

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Old
11-17-2012, 11:14 AM
  #611
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Seems like there's some growing dissension on the side of the owners. Flyers owner Ed Snider is trying to figure out how to resolve this issue quickly.

Also, Darren Dreger is so biased on Bettman's side that he tweets:
Quote:
"Good example of an owner who wants to play...badly," tweeted Dreger on Saturday morning. "But, I'm told Snider remains strongly in Bettman's corner."
The very fact that Snider is trying to circumvent Bettman is the opposite of him being in Bettman's corner.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=409693

http://www.985sports.ca/hockey/nouve...an-188281.html

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Old
11-17-2012, 11:17 AM
  #612
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsfan18 View Post
Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger
Candor and strong opinion are always welcome, however, Ian White calling Gary Bettman an "idiot" is disrespectful and requires an apology.

Brandon Prust ‏@BrandonPrust8
@DarrenDreger what gary bettman is doing is disrespectful n deserves n apology

Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger
@BrandonPrust8. Would you call your owner an idiot? Of course not, however Bettman works for the owners. I get emotion....not disrespect.

Brandon Prust ‏@BrandonPrust8
@DarrenDreger never.. But that guy in Boston.. Yes.. Ya I got emotion too. It's called anger cause I'm not playing hockey


Brandon Prust ‏@BrandonPrust8
@DarrenDreger not playing in front of 21000 screamin habs fans.. just goin nuts over an ot win on hockey night in Canada! #wantthatfeeling

Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger
@BrandonPrust8. You should be angry. Negotiation is a mess, but NHL players have a history of being respectful.
Is Prust calling Jeremy Jacobs an idiot? If so, lol.

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Old
11-17-2012, 11:48 AM
  #613
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Is Prust calling Jeremy Jacobs an idiot? If so, lol.
Pruster will fit right in here

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11-17-2012, 12:15 PM
  #614
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Prust is just another player too scared to put his money where his mouth is and call out his team's owner.

Funny how it's never their owners responsible for this mess... It's always the designated boogeymen.

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11-17-2012, 12:23 PM
  #615
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Originally Posted by Bill McNeal View Post
Prust is just another player too scared to put his money where his mouth is and call out his team's owner.

Funny how it's never their owners responsible for this mess... It's always the designated boogeymen.
It's been widely speculated that Molson is one of the few owners who were actually anti-lockout. I think one of the habs even came out and said it in a roundabout way not too long ago.

But you're right in that Prust looks like an idiot for his ' what bettman is doing is disrespectful.. etc etc' crap. Honestly I'd expect the same answer from a 4 year old. Players need to learn to shut the **** up, they're hurting themselves and the league by opening their mouths.

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11-17-2012, 12:29 PM
  #616
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Originally Posted by Bill McNeal View Post
Prust is just another player too scared to put his money where his mouth is and call out his team's owner.

Funny how it's never their owners responsible for this mess... It's always the designated boogeymen.
That's most likley because JJ is know to be an ass and slimy businessman and behind the group of owners who are 'commanding' the lock out and the hardline approach.
Might be darche or crosby (both were there at the 3-4 day nego stint that was going well) who said that the talks went bad once JJ stepped into the discussion.
it's only thing i found quickly, and it's just opinion piece,
http://causewaycrowd.com/2012/11/09/...e-talks-stall/

There are other quotes floating around this thread pointing towards JJ. The bruins fans know what type of dirty owner he is/has been (search bruins board for his threads)

Like it's been said, Bettman only needs to have 7 owners on his side to commandeer his hardline approach and reject any proposals that the majority of owners would accept (Molson and others who are losing stupid money for a few % points and ego battle, are defiantly not behind this type of negotiation approach.)

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11-17-2012, 12:43 PM
  #617
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Ryane Clowe asked Dreger why he didn't ask for Jimmy D to apologize for calling players cattle. It's a valid question.

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11-17-2012, 01:01 PM
  #618
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Bettman is an idiot.

He's done a reasonable job growing the game, but I'm going on record to say this lockout is going to really set the league back.

Jeremy Jacobs is definitely an idiot.

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11-17-2012, 01:05 PM
  #619
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Originally Posted by loudi94 View Post
Ryane Clowe asked Dreger why he didn't ask for Jimmy D to apologize for calling players cattle. It's a valid question.
True, however Jimmy D was fined by the league no?

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11-17-2012, 03:20 PM
  #620
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How about we make things more interesting and start a big coallition of fans called the NHLFA (NHL Fan Association). We get some ten of thousands of signatures and ask for many demands like lower ticket prices and a deadline to the lockout or we boycott the product for X years. Fans in lockout YEAH!

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11-17-2012, 03:31 PM
  #621
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The players already have indirect revenue sharing mechanisms in place.
- pensions and health insurance are far more equitable
- per diems are more equitable, I suspect they're equal
- minimum salaries are enforced, and are a form of revenue sharing among players
Huh?

It is a big stretch to call that revenue sharing... in fact, it is an unbelievable stretch. It is nothing like revenue sharing at all. All of that is between the owners and the individual players and not among the players themselves.

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11-17-2012, 03:39 PM
  #622
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Huh?

It is a big stretch to call that revenue sharing... in fact, it is an unbelievable stretch. It is nothing like revenue sharing at all. All of that is between the owners and the individual players and not among the players themselves.
Incorrect, they are part of the CBA.

NHL has highest minimum salary of any mAJOR league.

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Old
11-17-2012, 06:18 PM
  #623
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True, however Jimmy D was fined by the league no?
He was, but never took back what he said. Just pointing out Dreger's hypocrisy.

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Old
11-17-2012, 06:33 PM
  #624
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It's been widely speculated that Molson is one of the few owners who were actually anti-lockout. I think one of the habs even came out and said it in a roundabout way not too long ago.

But you're right in that Prust looks like an idiot for his ' what bettman is doing is disrespectful.. etc etc' crap. Honestly I'd expect the same answer from a 4 year old. Players need to learn to shut the **** up, they're hurting themselves and the league by opening their mouths.
Yeah, Gorges said he trusts Molson to want to end this, and while he might have just been playing nice, as one of the teams leaders you'd think he would know if there was a reason to say you don't blame your owner.

And really common sense dictates Molson has nothing to gain from this, you don't have to believe he's interested in anything more than money to realize if anything, bigger contracts help him because this franchise is one of the easiest to make profitable if not completely mismanaged. I don't expect him to undermine Bettman unless its part of a bigger group, but it's pretty obvious he's not part of the problem.

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Old
11-17-2012, 06:42 PM
  #625
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He was, but never took back what he said. Just pointing out Dreger's hypocrisy.
Yeah it's a double standard, but the fining is most probably why Dreger never went on record saying Jim should apologize. He probably said he should be fined.

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