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NHL Lockout Discussion: Despite All My Rage I Am Still Just A Rat In A Cage

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Old
11-17-2012, 03:42 PM
  #126
Sivek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Daren Millard ‏@darenmillard
Nothing confirmed in stone but looks like it will be the full compliment. Bettman, Daly, owners with both Fehrs and players. #Sportsnet

This could turn ugly, again.
Things are already ugly. Having everyone of importance there in what will be the last-ditch effort to save the season can only be a good thing.

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Old
11-17-2012, 03:43 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
How the hell is a 7% reduction in HRR "everything"?

The owners want to pay the players an average of ~2.1M a year to ****ing play hockey. Those ********!
I was speaking hypothetically. Pretend you were the players, and instead of asking for a 7% reduction in HRR, they asked for a 90% one. What would you say? "Thats outragous! What reason could you possibly have? So on and so forth?" Me, Mr. Owner would say. "Be grateful we let you have 10% of our money."

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Old
11-17-2012, 03:44 PM
  #128
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A majority of owners are with Bettman. Period.

There is no way the hardliners are just a minority of 8 or 9. As low an opinion as I may have of Bettman, I cannot believe that he'd be stupid enough to hold the season hostage against the wishes of 65 - 70% of the owners. There's also no way that the wealthier owners from such a group would keep silent if indeed they did exist. It's just not plausible that bell and Rogers would give a **** about a one million dollar fine if that were the situation.

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Old
11-17-2012, 03:45 PM
  #129
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I still don't see how them meeting is going to fix anything.

As long as both sides stay firm on their positions, they can talk forever and nothing will happen.

Someone is going to have to "cave" in.

Also, its a Monday Night meeting. So, it will probably be very brisk and pointless.

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Old
11-17-2012, 03:45 PM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pump n Dump View Post
Please, let's stop with this "it's always stupid not to cave if you lose salary". Follow that approach and Bettman will be back for the $200M you saved on the next round.
Nowhere did I say they should just take the NHL offer as is. Of course they should negotiate it. But there is a line at which the benefits to you do not outweigh the costs.

I feel sympathy for your wife's plight, but taking a stand here does not guarantee anything in the next CBA negotiation. For example, my friend's union did what you think your wife's should do. They closed down the business, and it hasn't opened up again since.

If you can show me the monetary value of 'not caving' as you put it, and show me how it would WITHOUT DOUBT properly incentivize the owners to not lock out the players in the next negotiations, go ahead.

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Old
11-17-2012, 03:48 PM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivek View Post
Not sure if this was already posted

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2...nference-call/
This is what stood out to me:

Quote:
“In the last conference call, a player asked Don why he was learning details of the NHL’s last proposal through the media and not via Don or the players in attendance,” an NHL player told ESPNBoston.com. “Don and some other players called that player out and basically embarrassed him for asking that.”
Basically Fehr only wants the player to know what he chooses to tell them, and if they ask questions they get humiliated.

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Old
11-17-2012, 03:48 PM
  #132
mossey3535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Powdered Toast Man View Post
I was speaking hypothetically. Pretend you were the players, and instead of asking for a 7% reduction in HRR, they asked for a 90% one. What would you say? "Thats outragous! What reason could you possibly have? So on and so forth?" Me, Mr. Owner would say. "Be grateful we let you have 10% of our money."
Your pithiness is reaching an end here. There's no need to argue that extreme a position.

Within the context of the current global economic situation and compared to earning systems in the other three major north american sports leagues, the players should be grateful to take a 50/50 split with face value of contracts honoured.

Of course 10% would be ludicrous, but it isn't 10%. Until the owners actually try to claw back that amount (which they will probably never do because it is more trouble than it is worth), your argument is out of context.

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Old
11-17-2012, 03:50 PM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
This is what stood out to me:



Basically Fehr only wants the player to know what he chooses to tell them, and if they ask questions they get humiliated.
There are no stupid questions, just stupid answers.

If that's true, the players should be embarrassed because it's a legitimate question.

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Old
11-17-2012, 03:50 PM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by officeglen View Post
Why can't the NHL move on contract issues?
Move to what...?

All i've read from the NHLPA is that they want the contracts like before but more money...

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Old
11-17-2012, 03:50 PM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crows View Post
Very intersting
Agreed, belittle a player because he asks a serious question. How dare he..........

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Old
11-17-2012, 03:52 PM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Powdered Toast Man View Post
I was speaking hypothetically. Pretend you were the players, and instead of asking for a 7% reduction in HRR, they asked for a 90% one. What would you say? "Thats outragous! What reason could you possibly have? So on and so forth?" Me, Mr. Owner would say. "Be grateful we let you have 10% of our money."
All you need is a Hitler reference and you've got perfect hyperbole.

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Old
11-17-2012, 03:53 PM
  #137
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How I see Monday nights meeting going:

Gary: You guys ready to give in and accept out linked cap and make whole proposal?
Don: No, You ready to accept our delinked proposal and keep all contracting rights the same as last CBA?
Gary:Not a chance. Lets watch the Niners -Bears game.

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Old
11-17-2012, 03:54 PM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
Your pithiness is reaching an end here. There's no need to argue that extreme a position.

Within the context of the current global economic situation and compared to earning systems in the other three major north american sports leagues, the players should be grateful to take a 50/50 split with face value of contracts honoured.

Of course 10% would be ludicrous, but it isn't 10%. Until the owners actually try to claw back that amount (which they will probably never do because it is more trouble than it is worth), your argument is out of context.
It's not at all, especially if the business continues to grow and 50% now turns into 10% later and people will be saying "You get 4 million dollars to play hockey; you should play for the love of the game!"

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Old
11-17-2012, 03:56 PM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivek View Post
Things are already ugly. Having everyone of importance there in what will be the last-ditch effort to save the season can only be a good thing.
There's at least two more months to go before the season is in jeopardy. Not even close to last ditch at this point.

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Old
11-17-2012, 03:58 PM
  #140
mossey3535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
It's not at all, especially if the business continues to grow and 50% now turns into 10% later and people will be saying "You get 4 million dollars to play hockey; you should play for the love of the game!"
This blatantly ignores cost-benefit, The owners asking the players to take a marginal share of league revenue will never happen again.

Even if I grant your ludicrous point, yes there is nothing stopping the owners from ASKING for 10%. But of course the union will be there to refuse to GIVE them 10%.

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Old
11-17-2012, 03:59 PM
  #141
Powdered Toast Man
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The term "grateful" has no place in collective bargaining negotiations because it implies one side is subservient to the other.

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Old
11-17-2012, 04:01 PM
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PensFanSince1989 View Post
I don't necessarily see anything wrong with that Toews quote
Toews has said and done a lot of dumb things this year, so a lot of people just want him to shut his mouth, no matter what he says. I didn't realize this until I started a topic expressing concern about him going to see that quack Ted Carrick to try to get his concussion fixed by being looped around in an antigrav device or whatever.

Wanted to discuss that, got three dozen responses about how dumb this guy has been in general for about a year.

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Old
11-17-2012, 04:03 PM
  #143
LickTheEnvelope
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
It's not at all, especially if the business continues to grow and 50% now turns into 10% later and people will be saying "You get 4 million dollars to play hockey; you should play for the love of the game!"
...

I cannot forsee a situation in the next 50 years where 10% of the league revenue is equal to $3 billion or so...

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Old
11-17-2012, 04:03 PM
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Daren Millard ‏@darenmillard
Nothing confirmed in stone but looks like it will be the full compliment. Bettman, Daly, owners with both Fehrs and players. #Sportsnet

This could turn ugly, again.
It seems as if both sides want this season to crash and burn.

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Old
11-17-2012, 04:04 PM
  #145
mossey3535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Powdered Toast Man View Post
The term "grateful" has no place in collective bargaining negotiations because it implies one side is subservient to the other.
Ok, the players should be PLEASED to get a revenue split higher than the NFL, MLB or NBA's.

They should also be PLEASED to not be in an MLB system without a salary cap that widens the economic gap between the have and have-not teams and results in a lowering of player share to the least in all of North American sports.

Likewise, they should be nominally satisfied to remain in a cap system with a floor that artificially raises player salaries, and allows them to take equal share in league revenue growth.

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Old
11-17-2012, 04:05 PM
  #146
billybudd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivek View Post
Not sure if this was already posted

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2...nference-call/
Quote:
“In the last conference call, a player asked Don why he was learning details of the NHL’s last proposal through the media and not via Don or the players in attendance,” an NHL player told ESPNBoston.com. “Don and some other players called that player out and basically embarrassed him for asking that.”
This is bad. Cult behavior. On a private conference call is exactly the forum for a question like that.

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Old
11-17-2012, 04:08 PM
  #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoytoSakic View Post
Ed Snider can say all he wants about wanting a deal. Problem is unless the NHLPA offers a deal that involves a linked cap, the NHL will not talk to them. As of now the NHLPA has offered 5 delinkage type deals to the NHL. All of them have been laughed off the table. Sure Snider wants hockey back but he's not going to be dumb about it. For all we know he's just playing the players, trying to get the message "we want to negotiate a deal to so stop with the useless complaining".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Jones View Post
Isn't this something that could be communicated through a backchannel?
There is no backchannel to the PA. There used to be two, Fehr abolished one and appointed his brother to the other position.

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Old
11-17-2012, 04:09 PM
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivek View Post
Not sure if this was already posted

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2...nference-call/
Hmmm. I haven't seen this kind of group dynamic since grade 7. You would have thought that the players had outgrown that kind of peer pressure bullying crap.

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Old
11-17-2012, 04:10 PM
  #149
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Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger

PA response requested. Daly:"We told them that we are open to discussing other ways to address issues if they want to propose any."

Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger

Daly:"we used example of "if we need 5 and we have proposed 3+2 to get there, we are happy to listening to and considering 4+1 instead."

Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger

Daly quote in fragments is a tad confusing. Will be posted on TSN.ca along with PA reax when it is made available.

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Old
11-17-2012, 04:11 PM
  #150
NJDevs26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kfan22 View Post
John Shannon ‏@JSportsnet
As per @darenmillard,NHL and PA have tentatively set up meeting on Monday to resume talks.#somuchformoratorium
Over under on how long it lasts: 3 hours?

Quote:
“In the last conference call, a player asked Don why he was learning details of the NHL’s last proposal through the media and not via Don or the players in attendance,” an NHL player told ESPNBoston.com. “Don and some other players called that player out and basically embarrassed him for asking that.”
Would it surprise anyone if Toews was one of the guys yelling?

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