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Old
11-17-2012, 04:31 PM
  #951
Numbers
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
Well how about that Burke has traded with multiple teams since being in Toronto for MANY players never speculated about. As well, EVER YEAR players are moved that no one would have thought possible.

It happens all the time and the only reason it isn't listed is because it would take me until I'm dead to compile a list.
Goalies are a different market and currently look at rosters it does not appear anyone of quality will be available soon. This has just as much merit as what you are saying. But my real question for you is why you are so evasive about player options? You will not offer opinion on proposal or even who Burke can alternatively trade for.....your statements lack integrity.


Last edited by Numbers: 11-17-2012 at 04:37 PM.
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11-17-2012, 04:40 PM
  #952
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Goalies are a different market and currently look at rosters it does not appear anyone of quality will be available soon. This has just as much merit as what you are saying. But my real question for you is why you are so evasive about player options? You will not offer opinion on proposal or even who Burke can alternatively trade for.....you statements lack integrity.
Actually since trades are made every year for players no one expects is providing more merit to the conversation than "it doesn't look like anyone will move".

Just think back to last season:

Kassain for Hodgson
Jeff Carter traded TWICE
Mike Richards
Mike Cammalleri
Kyle Turris
Kris Versteeg
Ryan Smith
Brian Campbell

You can dispute maybe the quality of each but for the most part these are all impact players or at the very least quality players/prospect that were not expected to be traded. It happens every year and some years more then others. With impending changes to the CBA it could be even more active but at the very least on average.

And sure I'll post a proposal.

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11-17-2012, 04:43 PM
  #953
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
Actually since trades are made every year for players no one expects is providing more merit to the conversation than "it doesn't look like anyone will move".

Just think back to last season:

Kassain for Hodgson
Jeff Carter traded TWICE
Mike Richards
Mike Cammalleri
Kyle Turris
Kris Versteeg
Ryan Smith
Brian Campbell

You can dispute maybe the quality of each but for the most part these are all impact players or at the very least quality players/prospect that were not expected to be traded. It happens every year and some years more then others. With impending changes to the CBA it could be even more active but at the very least on average.

And sure I'll post a proposal.
I don't see a quality goalie on that list......looking forward to the proposal though.

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11-17-2012, 04:46 PM
  #954
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Roberto Luongo
1st in 2014

Mystery Team:
Top 6 forward
Short Term cap dump
1st in 2014
B - Prospect

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11-17-2012, 04:48 PM
  #955
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I don't see a quality goalie on that list......looking forward to the proposal though.
The year before:

Anderson
Elliot
Varlomov?
Halak?

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11-17-2012, 04:49 PM
  #956
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post

Roberto Luongo
1st in 2014

Mystery Team:
Top 6 forward
Short Term cap dump
1st in 2014
B - Prospect
Haha that is a good one. I think that this post sums up everything you say in this thread, and that being nothing. Again evasive attitude with no tangible opinions lol.

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11-17-2012, 04:53 PM
  #957
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post

Roberto Luongo
1st in 2014

Mystery Team:
Top 6 forward
Short Term cap dump
1st in 2014
B - Prospect
Wait I get it now you are letting me pick the pieces.

Ill translate this:

Luongo
1st

For

JVR
Lombardi
Colbourne
1st

Thanks not a bad proposal, it's nice of you that you let me pick the pieces. If only Burke did this in real life we would have a deal by now!

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Old
11-17-2012, 04:58 PM
  #958
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#1. I never said he demanded a trade so their is nothing to refute. In fact if you read the whole point then you will see we agree with point #1.

#2. Can you provide any sources? And can they relate to high profile athletes which I have stated numerous times?

#3. Bernier isn't a high profile athlete so he has not leverage to demand a trade. Bobby Ryan demanded a trade because his very franchise was throwing him under the bus to try to improve his play. Also consider this was less then a year ago so it's not the greatest example since it can still happen. Also keep in mind, he has gotten his way since the coach has been fired and he hasn't been threatened by the GM since.

" When you get drafted, you want to win championships with that team and every time they look to add a piece to the puzzle, I'm the piece going the other way."

If things clear up on the Bure front, feel free to post it for me.
First, you only changed your tune, after everyone else including leaf fans called you on it. If no one thought Luongo was going to be dealt this thread, and the 99 that proceed it and the X after it would not exist.

I gave you a list of three players who have demanded a trade and not gotten one. Is it not just as likely Lui changed his mind just as Bobby Ryan? Bernier is another goalie, who has a contract, playing with a great American young goalie... seems pretty similar to me. Bure the incident happened. It is history. you don't believe me go look it up.

As for the quotes they were with Dregs and Ray, you will have to just take my word for it as there is no way I am searching through all the crap to find it, as it is not in an article titled list of players who asked for a trade, and never got one. Ray said it on the team 1040 on the breakfast show with Scotty and company, with Botchford.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
I don't get this post.
Thats cause you don't get anything that is not your opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marty111 View Post

Roberto Luongo
1st in 2014

Mystery Team:
Top 6 forward
Short Term cap dump
1st in 2014
B - Prospect
No, take out the dump, and depending on the prospect depends on if our first is included.

So Luongo for either
Lupul
Frattin
1st

or
Lupul
Kadri -->I would give back a pick but not a first.
1st

Lupul
Finn
1st
Something like that anyway.

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Old
11-17-2012, 05:05 PM
  #959
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Wait I get it now you are letting me pick the pieces.

Ill translate this:

Luongo
1st

For

JVR
Lombardi
Colbourne
1st

Thanks not a bad proposal, it's nice of you that you let me pick the pieces. If only Burke did this in real life we would have a deal by now!
I think the most you would get from TO is:

Lupul
Lombardi
Colbourne
1st in 2014

For

Lu
1st in 2014

If Lupul won't resign with the Leafs. I'm not a criminal am I? lol.


Last edited by marty111: 11-17-2012 at 05:11 PM.
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Old
11-17-2012, 05:08 PM
  #960
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First, you only changed your tune, after everyone else including leaf fans called you on it. If no one thought Luongo was going to be dealt this thread, and the 99 that proceed it and the X after it would not exist.

I gave you a list of three players who have demanded a trade and not gotten one. Is it not just as likely Lui changed his mind just as Bobby Ryan? Bernier is another goalie, who has a contract, playing with a great American young goalie... seems pretty similar to me. Bure the incident happened. It is history. you don't believe me go look it up.

As for the quotes they were with Dregs and Ray, you will have to just take my word for it as there is no way I am searching through all the crap to find it, as it is not in an article titled list of players who asked for a trade, and never got one. Ray said it on the team 1040 on the breakfast show with Scotty and company, with Botchford.



Thats cause you don't get anything that is not your opinion.



No, take out the dump, and depending on the prospect depends on if our first is included.

So Luongo for either
Lupul
Frattin
1st

or
Lupul
Kadri -->I would give back a pick but not a first.
1st

Lupul
Finn
1st
Something like that anyway.
Got to go out for some drinks but I will say that it's possible Lu changes his stance BUT Schneider would have to be dealt for that to happen IMO.

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Old
11-17-2012, 05:16 PM
  #961
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
got to go out for some drinks but i will say that it's possible lu changes his stance but schneider would have to be dealt for that to happen imo.
why?

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Old
11-17-2012, 05:21 PM
  #962
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why?
Because I think the major influence to for Lu to stay in Vancouver is for the franchise to show faith in him once again.

Personally, him battling it out with someone who despite Lu's good play has been chosen over him when it counts is not an ideal situation for him.

He has to be the #1 guy somewhere, I don't see it any other way.

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11-17-2012, 05:25 PM
  #963
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Goalies are a different market and currently look at rosters it does not appear anyone of quality will be available soon. This has just as much merit as what you are saying. But my real question for you is why you are so evasive about player options? You will not offer opinion on proposal or even who Burke can alternatively trade for.....your statements lack integrity.
You seem to be precluding the possibility of Burke going with a 24 year old goaltender with career .911 sv%, 2.83 sv% in 71 games, played almost entirely in a #1 role.

When you're trying to build a long term winner, you generally don't abandon young players because of 1 bad year and block their development with guys well into their 30s.

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11-17-2012, 05:35 PM
  #964
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
I think the most you would get from TO is:

Lupul
Lombardi
Colbourne
1st in 2014

For

Lu
1st in 2014

If Lupul won't resign with the Leafs. I'm not a criminal am I? lol.
I don't think Burke offers up his 1st at all. He has a history of raking people when their hand is forced on a trade, which Vancouver's appears to be here. At most, I could see Lupul, Lombardi and Colborne for Lou and a pick (not first).

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11-17-2012, 05:37 PM
  #965
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That's fair but at the same token, couldn't Burke reduce some of the pressure to his team by signing a 1-B goalie and say significant upgrades in other areas?

I think Burke has multiple options especially if the lockout continues.
Perhaps, but I can think of one top goalie available, versus...a bunch of maybes concerning 1Cs or other deadset improvements.

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11-17-2012, 05:43 PM
  #966
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
I don't think Burke offers up his 1st at all. He has a history of raking people when their hand is forced on a trade, which Vancouver's appears to be here. At most, I could see Lupul, Lombardi and Colborne for Lou and a pick (not first).
Being available doesn't mean our hand is forced.

We've been over this, we won't move him until the price is right, and we aren't doing Toronto a favor by sending them a star player, contract or no, for less then market value.

Lupul, Lombardi and Colborne is much better for value then I have seen surrendered, but Lombardi+Colborne isn't a huge improvement on Lupul alone in terms of value.

I'm not saying a first is the only starter from Toronto, not by any stretch, but if we're taking a cap dump in Lombardi, I'd rather have a top six (on this team) D back as the sweetener instead of futures.

We've agreed on a base again. Kudos gentlemen.

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11-17-2012, 05:46 PM
  #967
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I don't think Burke offers up his 1st at all. He has a history of raking people when their hand is forced on a trade, which Vancouver's appears to be here.
That would make sense if Burke was the GM of the Panthers.

Toronto doesn't have any leverage on Gillis. Tallon might *if* Luongo forces a move.

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11-17-2012, 05:50 PM
  #968
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
I think the most you would get from TO is:

Lupul
Lombardi
Colbourne
1st in 2014

For

Lu
1st in 2014

If Lupul won't resign with the Leafs. I'm not a criminal am I? lol.
I'm glad you finally put some players out there. And this value is actually decent. Definitely something Gillis could seriously consider. I have to admit I am surprised.

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11-17-2012, 05:55 PM
  #969
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
You seem to be precluding the possibility of Burke going with a 24 year old goaltender with career .911 sv%, 2.83 sv% in 71 games, played almost entirely in a #1 role.

When you're trying to build a long term winner, you generally don't abandon young players because of 1 bad year and block their development with guys well into their 30s.
Ya I did suggest that a couple pages back, calling it a live and die situation. Scrivens this year can barely hold his job in AHL, even if you stick with Reimer not sure who is going to back him up. It's fair enough that you believe in Reimer it's your opinion. I don't think he will be a long term starter in this league, and that is my opinion. Agree to disagree.

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11-17-2012, 06:15 PM
  #970
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
That would make sense if Burke was the GM of the Panthers.

Toronto doesn't have any leverage on Gillis
. Tallon might *if* Luongo forces a move.
Of course we don't.

All that's happen is.


1. Likely the cap will come down by as much as 10 million leaving you guys with as much $10 million over cap. You could then use amnesty on Ballard but that still wouldn't cover all of it.

2. You've signed the Schneider for 3 more years @ $4 million a season.(not back up money) Leaving you guys with $9.3 million tied up in two goalies.

3. Luongo has said he has no desire to stay if he's not the #1

4. Massive contract(term wise) with still roughly $43 million owed to him over the next 7 years.

5. Other supposed competitors for Luongo don't have the financial wherewithal to afford nearly $7 million a season for the next 6 seasons.


So ya no leverage at all.

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11-17-2012, 06:25 PM
  #971
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1. Likely the cap will come down by as much as 10 million leaving you guys with as much $10 million over cap. You could then use amnesty on Ballard but that still wouldn't cover all of it.
I don't want to speculate on the CBA. If it comes to it Gilman will find a way to dump expensive supporting players (Ballard, Manny) and keep our franchise player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rare Jewel View Post
2. You've signed the Schneider for 3 more years @ $4 million a season.(not back up money) Leaving you guys with $9.3 million tied up in two goalies.
Canucks can afford to spend 9.3M for the best goalie duo when our best players make 6.1M, 5M and 4.5M.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rare Jewel View Post
3. Luongo has said he has no desire to stay if he's not the #1
Source? Either way Luongo won't become a 20 game backup if he stays. 1A/1B with 2 elite goalies is much better than a tandem of 2 backups.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rare Jewel View Post
4. Massive contract(term wise) with still roughly $43 million owed to him over the next 7 years.
New CBA could allow Canucks to pay portion of salary. Once again pointless to speculate on a new CBA.

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Originally Posted by Rare Jewel View Post
5. Other supposed competitors for Luongo don't have the financial wherewithal to afford nearly $7 million a season for the next 6 seasons.
Chicago and EDM can both pay it easily. Tallon asked FLA ownership, they OK'd it (rumor).

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So ya no leverage at all.
Exactly. If the Canucks are forced to deal Luongo the Leafs aren't in a position of strength. They'd be at best tied with other lottery teams like EDM/CBJ and behind contenders like CHI. FLA would be the only team to demand a lower price.

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11-17-2012, 06:36 PM
  #972
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Of course we don't.

All that's happen is.


1. Likely the cap will come down by as much as 10 million leaving you guys with as much $10 million over cap. You could then use amnesty on Ballard but that still wouldn't cover all of it.

2. You've signed the Schneider for 3 more years @ $4 million a season.(not back up money) Leaving you guys with $9.3 million tied up in two goalies.

3. Luongo has said he has no desire to stay if he's not the #1

4. Massive contract(term wise) with still roughly $43 million owed to him over the next 7 years.

5. Other supposed competitors for Luongo don't have the financial wherewithal to afford nearly $7 million a season for the next 6 seasons.


So ya no leverage at all.
#1 currently we would be 7 mil over the cap with at least 8.5 mil coming off the cap, if we traded Ballard or even waved him we would then be under by 6.7 mil if my math is correct and need to replace just a handful of guys. So that sounds like a real dire cap.

#2 someone pointed out that the 9.3 mil in our two goalies, is actually less as a % against the cap then when we first traded for and signed Lui for 6.7 mil against the cap.

#3 No he has never said that. This is a complete lie. He has said maybe it is time to move on, and that he has no problem coming back, and playing and competing for the starting job.

#4 This argument makes no sense. Either it is great to have a goalie locked up for a long term, with a great cap hit I might add. Some comparisons Rinne owed 49 mil, Lunquist about 42 mil, hell Bryz is owed like 54 mil.

#5 who knows without a new cap in place, but my guess is Katz would have no problem taking on this contract in EDM, and we know FLA owner has oked taking on this much money, so I would also say this is %100 wrong.

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11-17-2012, 06:40 PM
  #973
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I'm glad you finally put some players out there. And this value is actually decent. Definitely something Gillis could seriously consider. I have to admit I am surprised.
I don't know why you are surprised. I only put variables out there since more than the Leafs are potential destinations.

I stated reasons I think Gillis has to trade Luongo and that Lu has more control than most people predict.

I stated other reasons (for the Leafs perspective) why Burke has other options available to him.


That's all. I don't get why people are assuming my two posts meant that Vancouver is screwed and can be taken advantage of? I meant to point out some valid realities that exist in the current circumstances. Perhaps had I posted what I thought Lu's value was than not many would be up in arms?

Anyway, Lupul [depending on circumstances], a potentially higher 1st round pick in 2014 [exchange], a B Prospect like Colbourne and a short term cap dump in Lombardi is pretty good value for both sides so I am glad we agree.

Vancouver picks up some useful upgrades [current and futures] from Toronto but not at the expense of Toronto's young assets, retainable core pieces or 1st in 2013. Toronto upgrades with Lu. Win ,win.

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11-17-2012, 06:53 PM
  #974
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I don't know why you are surprised. I only put variables out there since more than the Leafs are potential destinations.

I stated reasons I think Gillis has to trade Luongo and that Lu has more control than most people predict.

I stated other reasons (for the Leafs perspective) why Burke has other options available to him.


That's all. I don't get why people are assuming my two posts meant that Vancouver is screwed and can be taken advantage of? I meant to point out some valid realities that exist in the current circumstances. Perhaps had I posted what I thought Lu's value was than not many would be up in arms?

Anyway, Lupul [depending on circumstances], a potentially higher 1st round pick in 2014 [exchange], a B Prospect like Colbourne and a short term cap dump in Lombardi is pretty good value for both sides so I am glad we agree.

Vancouver picks up some useful upgrades [current and futures] from Toronto but not at the expense of Toronto's young assets, retainable core pieces or 1st in 2013. Toronto upgrades with Lu. Win ,win.
It's because when you put forward ideas/solutions/sources you are adding integrity to your posts. When you speculate without tangible facts/examples people do not respect what you say.

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11-17-2012, 07:16 PM
  #975
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I don't want to speculate on the CBA. If it comes to it Gilman will find a way to dump expensive supporting players (Ballard, Manny) and keep our franchise player.
If he's truly your "franchise" player then why is there discussion about him being traded?

It's clear that he's not, Or Schneider would have been moved before they re-signed him. It's quite clear that the management and coaching staff have chosen Schneider over him, And there no greater example of this then Luongo not playing against L.A in the 2 elimination games in the playoffs this past spring.




Quote:
Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
Canucks can afford to spend 9.3M for the best goalie duo when our best players make 6.1M, 5M and 4.5M.
Not really, If you could be potentially $10 million over the cap still.




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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
Source? Either way Luongo won't become a 20 game backup if he stays. 1A/1B with 2 elite goalies is much better than a tandem of 2 backups.
I'm sure He'll love that. 33 years old and watching half the time. This a guy who usually plays 65+ games a year.


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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
New CBA could allow Canucks to pay portion of salary. Once again pointless to speculate on a new CBA.
Even paying a portion of his salary with that much term and money wouldn't make a huge difference when concerning his value. I'm pretty sure the whole point of trading him is moving the money else where.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
Chicago and EDM can both pay it easily. Tallon asked FLA ownership, they OK'd it (rumor).

Well if you want to send him to a divisional rival or a team that has emerged has your #1 rival, Then be my guess. Also, I can't see them having the appetite to send what some Vancouver fans are asking for inside their own division or conference.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
Exactly. If the Canucks are forced to deal Luongo the Leafs aren't in a position of strength. They'd be at best tied with other lottery teams like EDM/CBJ and behind contenders like CHI. FLA would be the only team to demand a lower price.
I was being fascias.

Also Columbus?!? Where did they come from? That doesn't work for a many reasons.

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